ST3 Trial Class in NASA Northeast is a GO !!!!

[philstireservice]

Starting in 2010 NASA NE will have a ST3 class on a trial basis. It will not be a nationally recognized class, but it's a start.......

 

It will run under the NASA ST rules with a hp/wt to be determined.

 

 

Thank you NASA and Joe Casella...........

[Bueller]

Can you give a little more info than that? What would be the w/p for ST3? ST2 and PTA already have the same w/p. Are you saying ST3 would have a higher w/p than ST2/PTA? Anything higher and ST3 would be between ST2/PTA and PTB:

 

ST2: 8.70

PTA: 8.70

PTB: 10.25

 

So would ST3 be like 9.5?

[philstireservice]

more like 10:1

[Bueller]

more like 10:1

 

I dont understand how ST3 would fit in with 10:1 when you have PTA and PTB. What would be the point of having ST3 when its 10:1?

 

 

ST2: 8.70

PTA: 8.70

PTB: 10.25

ST3: 10.00

[philstireservice]

more like 10:1

 

I dont understand how ST3 would fit in with 10:1 when you have PTA and PTB. What would be the point of having ST3 when its 10:1?

 

 

ST2: 8.70

PTA: 8.70

PTB: 10.25

ST3: 10.00

 

 

Well it could be 9:5.1......just as easily. That's the beauty of an ST class.......

 

PT A & B aren't really governed by hp/wt....true?

[Bueller]

more like 10:1

 

I dont understand how ST3 would fit in with 10:1 when you have PTA and PTB. What would be the point of having ST3 when its 10:1?

 

 

ST2: 8.70

PTA: 8.70

PTB: 10.25

ST3: 10.00

 

 

Well it could be 9:5.1......just as easily. That's the beauty of an ST class.......

 

PT A & B aren't really governed by hp/wt....true?

 

1. Im just not understanding your approach with the w/p. Why 9.5:1? Thats pretty much ST2. With a few modification factors, a ST2 car can end up with a w/p thats higher than 9.5:1.

 

2. You didnt know that PT classes have a w/p limit? Every PT class has a w/p limit. This is a copy/paste from the PT rules:

 

PTA 8.70:1

PTB 10.25:1

PTC 12.00:1

PTD 14.25:1

PTE 16.50:1

PTF 19.50:1

 

3. How can ST3 be already approved for NASA NE when it doesnt sound like a w/p has been set? Who wrote the rules for ST3?

[mbuskuhl]

Starting in 2010 NASA NE will have a ST3 class on a trial basis.

 

Good to see. Hope it goes well as I think ST3 would be a good choice nationwide.

 

I've questioned whether something like ST1-6 would be a better choice than the current ST1/2 and PTA-F system.

[kbrew8991]

PTA-F have to stay within horsepower/weight AND the points system. 99% of those guys run out of points before they push their horsepower/weight limit.

 

ST3 would just have to stay within the horsepower/weight 8.70:1 starts to ask alot of front wheel drive cars and stuff that starts off at low power, having an ST3 would let those guys be mad scientists without having to push reliability and/or drivetrain layout physics past their breaking points.

[L98Terror]

It's a good idea but would need to be in the 10.5-11.0 range for it to work, at 9.5 I might just run it since my ST2 car is normally run at about 9.0-9.3 anyways.

[mrc24x]

It's a good idea but would need to be in the 10.5-11.0 range for it to work, at 9.5 I might just run it since my ST2 car is normally run at about 9.0-9.3 anyways.

 

 

Way to blow it Ken.... shhhh 9.5 would be great. You might end up w/ a few C4's to play with Phil.

[philstireservice]

It's a good idea but would need to be in the 10.5-11.0 range for it to work, at 9.5 I might just run it since my ST2 car is normally run at about 9.0-9.3 anyways.

 

 

No...you're banned already...it's in the rules...

[philstireservice]

 

1. Im just not understanding your approach with the w/p. Why 9.5:1? Thats pretty much ST2. With a few modification factors, a ST2 car can end up with a w/p thats higher than 9.5:1.

 

2. You didnt know that PT classes have a w/p limit? Every PT class has a w/p limit. This is a copy/paste from the PT rules:

 

PTA 8.70:1

PTB 10.25:1

PTC 12.00:1

PTD 14.25:1

PTE 16.50:1

PTF 19.50:1

 

3. How can ST3 be already approved for NASA NE when it doesnt sound like a w/p has been set? Who wrote the rules for ST3?

 

 

Okay...I knew I read that somewhere.....I couldn't find it ....PT site is being updated I think.

 

The rules will be the same as ST1 and ST2.......ST3 will have a different horsepower to weight...that's all. Reading the above does make me think that 10:5.1 to 11:0.1 (thanks Ken) might be a better target.......I appreciate all the feedback. It's only Dec. and the details will be worked out. Also, it is a TRIAL class, so things will most likely will change and or be adjusted along the way.

 

 

Basically, the idea of ST3 came about because of the ease of ST rules.......now working out the particulars shouldn't be that difficult. Being that this NASA, a very open minded and understanding organization, I think that this can be accomplished without too much pain.......

[sfarrah]

I think somewhere around 11 would be ideal to differentiate the class enough from ST2 and give the lower hp cars a fighting chance. I think the limit for GTS3 is 11. That ratio would also allow some of those cars to run either class if they are low on entrants in GTS.

[philstireservice]

PTA-F have to stay within horsepower/weight AND the points system. 99% of those guys run out of points before they push their horsepower/weight limit.

 

ST3 would just have to stay within the horsepower/weight 8.70:1 starts to ask alot of front wheel drive cars and stuff that starts off at low power, having an ST3 would let those guys be mad scientists without having to push reliability and/or drivetrain layout physics past their breaking points.

 

 

See, who says Ken isn't on the ball....

 

My car being front wheel drive......when you start getting up around 230-250hp, it's pretty hard to keep it together.......I'm sure if you ask Andrie Hartano and Graham Downey they'll tell you......add in Kevin Helms, Chad Slagg....these guys make some serious and reliable front wheel drive horsepower......and know the limits. ST3 with the right hp/wt should be a no brainer and a great class for just about anyone with any car to enter......then it will come down to the driver....

Edited December 2, 2009 by Guest

[philstireservice]

I think somewhere around 11 would be ideal to differentiate the class enough from ST2 and give the lower hp cars a fighting chance. I think the limit for GTS3 is 11. That ratio would also allow some of those cars to run either class if they are low on entrants in GTS.

 

 

If GTS3 is 11.....that might work...although there are some incredibly fast GTS3 cars around......can you say Eric Wong ??? Now he has also run in PTA and been very fast. I'd like to know what his hp/wt is......

[kbrew8991]

I think the limit for GTS3 is 11. That ratio would also allow some of those cars to run either class if they are low on entrants in GTS.

 

don't forget that we need to talk adjusted hp:weight for ST_ - GTS is straight up hp/weight iirc.

[philstireservice]

I think the limit for GTS3 is 11. That ratio would also allow some of those cars to run either class if they are low on entrants in GTS.

 

don't forget that we need to talk adjusted hp:weight for ST_ - GTS is straight up hp/weight iirc.

 

 

I'm liken you more and more .....

 

not that way though.....

[sfarrah]

don't forget that we need to talk adjusted hp:weight for ST_ - GTS is straight up hp/weight iirc.

I think their only correction factor is dot vs non dot tires.

[QUASAR]

10:5.1 to 11:0.1 (thanks Ken)

 

Perfect. Any more power than that and its too close to ST2.

 

 

My vote would be ST3 11.0:1, and ST2 bumped to 8.0:1

[L98Terror]

10:5.1 to 11:0.1 (thanks Ken)

 

Perfect. Any more power than that and its too close to ST2.

 

 

My vote would be ST3 11.0:1, and ST2 bumped to 8.0:1

 

As stated before I vote for

6.0 ST1

8.0 ST2

10.0 ST3

[Greg G.]

Guys, we are not changing the ST1 or ST2 Adjusted Wt/hp ratio limits at this time----5.5:1 and 8.7:1.

 

The ST3 test class in the Northeast Region in 2010 will use 10.25:1 as the limit.

 

If we don't see new cars, and all we see is dilution from PTA, PTB, GTS, HC, etc, then don't expect to see it as a National class in 2011.

[sfarrah]

Out of curiosity, how was the 10.25 ratio chosen?

[philstireservice]

Guys, we are not changing the ST1 or ST2 Adjusted Wt/hp ratio limits at this time----5.5:1 and 8.7:1.

 

The ST3 test class in the Northeast Region in 2010 will use 10.25:1 as the limit.

 

If we don't see new cars, and all we see is dilution from PTA, PTB, GTS, HC, etc, then don't expect to see it as a National class in 2011.

 

 

Okay...I was thinking 10.5:1....but it is a test class.....looks good to me...

 

Thanks, Greg

[slammed_93_hatch]

My car being front wheel drive......when you start getting up around 230-250hp, it's pretty hard to keep it together.......I'm sure if you ask Andrie Hartano and Graham Downey they'll tell you......add in Kevin Helms, Chad Slagg....these guys make some serious and reliable front wheel drive horsepower......and know the limits. ST3 with the right hp/wt should be a no brainer and a great class for just about anyone with any car to enter......then it will come down to the driver....

 

Worked on Andrie's/graham's EK from 03 tell he sold it to graham. Never had a problem keeping it together. Suspension, bearings, brakes, ect.

 

A K20 just can't make the power. But it is doable, with a k24 and the motor will last. Probably will last too with a BUILT B series motor.

 

The current H1 K powered cars are at 11:1 to 11.5:1 Meris, and Helms H1 B20vtec guys are between 9 and 9.5:1

 

 

In a class like ST with only power to weight. It should be hard to get 220 to 300whp. Expensive, but not hard.

 

B-series

sleeved 2.0l block

rods/pistons

 

drop on a Helms/merris head and you would be able to reliably make what they make.

 

 

The reason the reliability of the helms/merris motor is because of weakness in the block, and the rod:stroke ratio in a class were they can't use after parts.

 

The K20a blowing are the same thing, issues in the head in which you can't work around. Still the guys on the other side of the pond are geting 280whp out of these motors. You just can't take it above 7800rpms IIRC.

 

 

And that is NA. With some boost those power levels are easier, just need to have a lot of cooling.

 

Current WC TC, in the trim they ran last year are around 12:1

[L98Terror]

Guys, we are not changing the ST1 or ST2 Adjusted Wt/hp ratio limits at this time----5.5:1 and 8.7:1.

 

The ST3 test class in the Northeast Region in 2010 will use 10.25:1 as the limit.

 

If we don't see new cars, and all we see is dilution from PTA, PTB, GTS, HC, etc, then don't expect to see it as a National class in 2011.

 

 

Isn't that what STR did?? Either way I like it, now I just need Greg to let me run different power levels at Nationals and then maybe I can Run 5 classes.