Considering the car for TTE and PTE

[banderaz]

From what I've read, either Mini cooper S or Mazdaspeed3 LSD is plug and play. Cobalt has LSD as an option, but its too difficult to find the car itself, I'm not even talking about the rare G85 trim.

 

Do these cars desperately need one with sticky rubber? I've been driving Lemons Civic SI (2000lb with 150hp) and never experienced any serious traction issues. Are there any other cures for wheel spin?

 

Also I see a couple of cheapo Scion TC's coming up on auction next week. Are they any good stock or would require more work than its worth?

 

Does the Focus SVT have an LSD?

 

No. Quiafe and OBX each make one. And I've always wondered if you could get a Mini Cooper LSD to work on a SVTF - they have the same transmission.[/quote

[kbrew8991]

Dan Gardner's Scion did pretty well in TTE/PTE in 2007 iirc

 

haven't seen anyone else field a serious effort with one otherwise though

[banderaz]

Could you please let me know if I got my numbers correctly?

 

2) If I understand correctly Spec-V is listed in TTF with two stars. So I would have 25 points remaining to keep it in TTE?

3) Racing weight is 2710, Power to weight ratio allowed for class is 16.50 TTE base -1 (FWD) - 0.4 (SEDAN) + 0.3 (Weight Penalty) = 15.4/1

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

4) From what I've read Spec-V has ~145whp, so I have to somehow squeeze another 30 out of it to get the maximum allowance (2710 / 15.4 = 175whp)? or I can theoretically strip it to 2233lb and keep the engine stock (145whp * 15.4 ratio)?

5) It looks like you have worked hard on your Sentra to get to TTB, what are the cheap power mods for these cars to get +/- 30whp both cash and point-wise?

6) Which tires would I be able to run? 215mm TTF or 235mm TTE?

 

 

 

 

A little weight was added to the car this year by National because it does so well in TTE. When the SER was in TTE (National Champ car before the V6 swap) it put down 181whp @ Miller in SLC. These cars are very easy to mod, have great tq and stick amazingly well for a FWD. Dont let the solid rear beam get you down, my car is neutral to loose.

 

The main difference with the SER v the Spec-v is the brakes, 6th gear (not used), HLSD and 5hp. If you can find a non sunroof SER, jump on it. Take the points and purchase the Wilwood 12.2" brake upgrade. Hawk DTC70 (circle track) pads are $45 and the 2 piece rotors are $17. The rest is suspension and bolt ons. You'll be able to get the weight down easily and still have door glass and panels installed.

 

PM me and I'll give you my contact info. I'd be happy to share the right parts you'll need to win in TTE. Main thing, maximize the freebies.

 

BTW, last year 22 races, 21 1st place wins. The car is really that good.

[kbrew8991]

you probably want the excel calculator - makes everything easier, esp the adjusted hp/weight since its not straight hp/weight - there are subsequent adders/subtractors. You're not forced into your class's tire size either, you just have to take (or you get points back) if you're wider (or narrower).

 

PM me your email and I'll fire over the excel calculator - it's not official but its very helpful in grasping the ruleset and playing "what-ifs" with.

[hired wrench]

of all the cars you listed, only the SE-R/Spec V is going to come in the $5k range. Plus I'm pretty biased about Nissan.

 

It's pretty simple to get an SE-R in the 165-175whp range, and when you do, you'll also be making 165-180ft/lbs of TQ.......... none of the other cars you listed will make that much TQ.

[banderaz]

Will headers + piggyback get in that ballpark or I'll have to go for full exhaust + cams?

 

 

of all the cars you listed, only the SE-R/Spec V is going to come in the $5k range. Plus I'm pretty biased about Nissan.

 

It's pretty simple to get an SE-R in the 165-175whp range, and when you do, you'll also be making 165-180ft/lbs of TQ.......... none of the other cars you listed will make that much TQ.

[hired wrench]

cold air intake, headers, a short side exit exhaust (motor loves to flow exhaust), piggyback tuning, timing advance, should get you close.

[banderaz]

Thanks!

 

That's not too bad ~$1500 worth of parts. Does it want a full exhaust system or some of the components can be kept stock?

24) Modification or porting of the exhaust manifold +2

25) Aftermarket or modified header +2

26) Non-OEM or modified exhaust piping, resonators, or mufflers downstream from the header,

exhaust manifold, or turbo.(does not include catalytic converter removal/upgrade) +2

(Note: Replacement of a failing OEM exhaust system may be permitted without a points

assessment if the OEM definition in 5.4 OEM Definition is strictly adhered to.)

27) Removal, upgrade, or modification of catalytic converter(s). +1

 

Now I pretty much know what I'm looking for. Just gotta sell my 2nd bike to get the cash ready. Anyone in the market for Suzuki TL1000R?

[smokinjoe]

Where are you located? If you are close to Atlanta, drop by - I'd be happy to help. Justin (Hired Wrench) and I spent 2 years perfecting the chassis with the right combination of parts.

 

I would love, love, love to see another SE-R racing.

[Timmay]

Having daily driven both the SVT focus and a 2003 hatchback 2.3L auto, I would say the power difference is minimal. The 2.3L has a lot more low end grunt but it does run out of steam at the top end where the SVT shines. The top end of the 2.3L can be opened up with some basic bolt ons. There's not a whole lot you can do with the SVT motor cheaply. I've pushed the SVT a couple of times on mountain roads, which is by no means a track test, but the first thing I thought was "this thing needs an LSD, badly." Having said that, the SVT is more capable out of the box, better brakes, better suspension, bigger wheels, nicer transmission. My .02 on the focus.

[banderaz]

Thank you for all the help, but I'm quite far from Atlanta, San Francisco area...

 

I would probably end up spamming you through private messages when I end up with one.

 

Its great to hear the car is competitive, I'm on the look out for one, are there specific years to look for? I've heard 2002 were quite problematic.

[smokinjoe]

The 03's had the best ratios for the transmission. But the 04-06 tranny is pretty good too. The 04-06 are CANBus, which means you can use UpRev/Osiris to tune it nicely. 03s can make 6-9whp with a SAFC (free mod).

 

As far as spares for the motor, all you need are spark plugs and a MAF. The rest is stout. And I mean stout.

 

These are the best of the best:

1. Nismo header ($150 used)

2. Megan mid pipe with side exit 2.5 exhaust ($100 + side exhaust)

3. Wilwood custom brakes w 12.2 2 piece rotors and 1.64" pistons ($900, I have a couple on the shelf), add Hawk DT70 pads ($45)

4. Eibach front sway, Nismo rear sway

5. BC Racing Coilovers, custom valved, 600lb on all four corners ($975 shipped, I can get these made for you by BC)

6. Unbalanced Engineering Bump Steer kit ($95)

7. ES LCA bushing ($35)

8. Nismo rear trailing arm hard bushings (used but new $75)

9. Any sort of used intake (AEM, Nismo, etc)

10. Loctite the butterfly screws

11. Slot the upper strut bolt at the spindle for -3 camber

12. Pullies, tune with SAFC/UpRev

13. Lower tie bar

14. Hawk RX8 HP pads

 

This should get you started. If you can find an 03 without a sunroof and without ABS, thats a good one to get for less than $4K.

[Bruce L.]

E30 FTW - it is good to start with a car that was originally expensive and engineered to handle. Lots of clean candidates in CA.

You can be building it to meet Spec E30 specs (www.spece30.com) and run TTE. Roughly $10K for a full build.

If you go racing you can run in Spec E30 (which is getting to be a good size in Norcal), PTE, or GTS

Pretty easy to keep it streetable as well.

bruce

[944-Spec#94]

Mini?

I don't know the latest proces, but they can run pretty good due to the box shape can carry junk. Plus good aftermarket support.

[banderaz]

I wouldn't mind one, but there is too much demand for them driving resale prices through the roof. There are none in my area for under $10k with less than 150k miles on the clock.

 

Dealers are blood hungry vampires, buddy of mine ending up paying $35k for his Cooper S without Navigation nor leather and they didn't even have it in stock. He had to wait three months to take delivery. Seems like people pay fortune for used and abused ones to avoid hustle with dealers and delivery wait lines.

 

Mini?

I don't know the latest proces, but they can run pretty good due to the box shape can carry junk. Plus good aftermarket support.

[nasaregistrar]

E30 FTW - it is good to start with a car that was originally expensive and engineered to handle. Lots of clean candidates in CA.

You can be building it to meet Spec E30 specs (http://www.spece30.com) and run TTE. Roughly $10K for a full build.

If you go racing you can run in Spec E30 (which is getting to be a good size in Norcal), PTE, or GTS

Pretty easy to keep it streetable as well.

bruce

the Spec E30 weight is 2750 and the TT/PT for an E30 is 2855

weight reduction points can get you into TTD

[hired wrench]

fact of the matter is a well sorted B15 Sentra with a good driver is still going to be faster than most TTE, TTD, and a good number of TTC cars.

[CWeber]

sr20de is pretty strong (unless you miss a shift--- oooops) BUT is cheap enough to replace too!

 

our p10 (1995 g20) is currently set up for TTF but can get some more mods (better cam) and be very competitive in TTE

 

It had a TTE record for a year despite only being a TTF car and currently has 6 TTF records FWIW

 

Sentra (B13, b14 or p10 g20 are GREAT Options IMHO)

[awdracer]

You guys are all wrong. You're just wrong.

 

The process of adding up points and classing a TT/PT car is dead.

 

Here is what you need to do if you want to have a fast TTE car....

 

1) Buy a 1.6 Miata.

2) Swap in a 1.8 motor.

3) Add a supercharger.

4) Add Hoosiers.

5) Add a race suspension.

6) Send a dyno reclass to G. Greenbaum at 138hp and 2300lb.

7) Get classed in TTE/PTE.

 

Oh wait. Did you say that a miata with a supercharger and hoosiers would never fit into TTE/PTE? You might say that but you would be wrong.

 

We have a car in the Mid-Atlantic region that just got that reclassifiation.

 

 

Let's consider what this means.

 

Let's take the national champion TTE driver and all around good guy, Joe Ippolito, and look at how his lap times might stack up against the Miata I described above. Just before Joe won his national championship in 2009, he set his best time ever of 1:50:4 at CMP. The year before that, Dean Copeland in a Spec Miata ran a 1:51:0. Yep, the national championship TTE driver lapped a whopping 0.6 seconds faster than an SM car which fits into PTE with a few points to spare. For those of you that don't know, the SM cars have about 105HP and run on crappy Toyo tires and crappy but equal suspensions.

 

Now, imagine if you gave Dean Copeland a Mazda Miata with a supercharger, Hoosiers, a 100lb weight reduction and the aftermarket race suspension of his choice. Do you think that Miata could make up some time? I'd say that Joe would be picking up a second place trophy... by a lot.

 

The point is that the Wt/hp classification in PT/TT is going to be a disaster. The points system took into account the fact that some cars handle better than others. If you simply reclass everything and every car is at it's maximum hp/weight, some cars will NEVER compete. The better handling car will win EVERY time.

[kbrew8991]

point of argument - that 138/2300 comes out to 16.517 adjusted (16.500 limit) assuming 245 or smaller tires.

 

My reclass sucks compared to that - 125/2657 = 21.506 adjusted (19.500 limit) assuming 245 or smaller tires. Maybe I can take some lead out now?

 

Otherwise :popcorn:

- KB, troublemaker

[Markus]

You guys are all wrong. You're just wrong.

 

The process of adding up points and classing a TT/PT car is dead.

 

Here is what you need to do if you want to have a fast TTE car....

 

1) Buy a 1.6 Miata.

2) Swap in a 1.8 motor.

3) Add a supercharger.

4) Add Hoosiers.

5) Add a race suspension.

6) Send a dyno reclass to G. Greenbaum at 138hp and 2300lb.

7) Get classed in TTE/PTE.

 

OK: I'm not a big fan of the reclassing in some ways. For cars with an engine swap it needs to be done. But now some guys that don't even have engine swaps are doing it, it does seem like it's getting a little ridiculous to me. (And - I have a swapped car so I really am the pot calling the kettle black )

 

That being said - you are not presenting your argument well here!

A) There are power/weight limits for each class. The above car does still fit into the PTE/TTE guidelines so it's fine.

B) If he had to add a supercharger to get 138hp he's doing it wrong? That is not a really impressive number. A naturally aspirated 1.8L Meotter can get fairly close to that on it's own.

C) The problem here is that PT/TT ruleset does not consider TORQUE or AREA UNDER THE CURVE. I'm just guessing since my limited forced induction experience involves looking at my buddy's turbo dyno plots - but in order for the above setup to be worth it the guy probably makes a boat load of torque and makes it across a wide spectrum.

 

Personally in terms of rules changes over the last couple of years - I do like the power/weight limits for each class. I can't think of an easy way to make it power/torque/weight or area under the curve/weight so what can you do. But as more and more people bring purpose-built TT/PT cars to the track you will probably see more and more torque-specific builds.

 

Which kind of does bring us back to the Sentra's and their B13's, not a bad package there either.

 

Later,

 

- Markus

[kbrew8991]

Markus - what I think he's saying is that if you've got two cars at the same hp/weight but one handles alot better what do you chose... the FWD pig or the RWD corner carver?

[awdracer]

Markus, I'm comparing the TTE national champion to a Spec Miata. That SM car doesn't have anything aproaching 130hp.

 

But, i think that you have hit on another issue that I have with dyno classed cars competing with points cars and that issue is torque.

 

What if you take that Miata and do a crazy build with porting, polishing, optimal compression pistons etc. Then you dyno it with a killer ecu, fuel pump, FPR, and new injectors to optimize the torque curve. You could put 25 points into the engine that way but you could still get a TTE* base class and have room for the suspension and LSD that will make that car a TTE/PTE killer. Heck, that car would be a TTD killer.

 

What if that package has 138 HP and 155 torque across the board?

 

Welcome to your second place trophy.

[hired wrench]

the FWD pig or the RWD corner carver?

 

FWD pig?? what??

[1LapSRT]

the FWD pig or the RWD corner carver?

 

FWD pig?? what??

 

That coming from a guy who drives MR2's....