Any chance of trying multiple 15 minute sessions in MA?

[944-Spec#94]

We went from 4 20 mintue sessions to 4 15 minutue sessions and despite the lower over all track time (less than HPDE and race group per weekend) it was well recieved.

 

 

So each group gets 2 15 minute sessions a day?

 

No

Each TT driver gets 4 15 min session vs 4 20 min sessions for a combined group. Yes this means two TT groups and more run time for TT overall, but each driver see 20 min less. Again this works for our region. It may not work for yours. We have 1 or 2 race groups 3-4 HPDE groups. Sometimes a guest group. We can run about 7 or 8 run groups during normal day.

 

TT groups do not get any practice time during normal weekend.

 

Normal weekend in Arizona for TT er is you get 4 15 min session with split big bore/small bore group on both saturday and on sunday. The Big bore/small bore split is based the TT classes an approximate numbers. It is typicaly decided the day of to ensure a even load. The big bore and small bore TT are run back to back in most cases. All the track session are timed and each day is a stand alone TT event for the purposes of points. At some events we share track time with BMW CCA (give them 2 run groups to play with) we may mix one or two TT sessions so all the TTers run at the same time. Anyway our region is very flexible the schedule is always different to fit the needs for that event. There is very little down time and if a group gets too small it is combined.

 

Here is an example of the schedule from May 1,2. The last time we had "normal event".

Lately we have been hosting moring events were we run from 6am to 10:30am due to the heat. Those have some odd schedules, but we just like to run so it is bonus for us.

 

 

Saturday

 

0 6:00 AM n/a Gates Open for all

0 6:00 AM 7:25 1:25 Tech Opens

0 6:30 AM n/a 1:10 Registration Opens

0 7:30 AM 7:40 AM 0:10 Mandatory Drivers Meeting at the NASA AZ trailer

1 7:50 AM 8:10 AM 0:20 HPDE4

2 8:10 AM 8:25 AM 0:15 NASA TT Small Bore

3 8:25 AM 8:40 AM 0:15 NASA TT Big Bore

4 8:40 AM 9:00 AM 0:20 NASA Race Group Warm Up (Combined)

5 9:00 AM 9:20 AM 0:20 HPDE3

6 9:20 AM 9:45 AM 0:25 HPDE1 & HPDE2 (combined)

7 9:45 AM 10:05 AM 0:20 HPDE4

8 10:05 AM 10:20 AM 0:15 NASA TT Small Bore

9 10:20 AM 10:35 AM 0:15 NASA TT Big Bore

10 10:35 AM 10:50 AM 0:15 NASA Race Group Practice (Spec cars)

11 10:50 AM 11:05 AM 0:15 NASA Race Group Practice (ST & PT cars only)

12 11:05 AM 11:25 AM 0:20 HPDE3

13 11:25 AM 11:45 AM 0:20 HPDE1 & 2 - Race Group Meeting (@ Reg Rm)

14 11:45 AM 12:30 PM 0:45 Lunch / Time Correction

15 12:30 PM 12:50 PM 0:20 HPDE4

16 12:50 PM 1:05 PM 0:15 NASA TT Small Bore

17 1:05 PM 1:20 PM 0:15 NASA TT Big Bore

18 1:20 PM 1:35 PM 0:15 NASA Race Group Qualify (Spec cars)

19 1:35 PM 1:50 PM 0:15 NASA Race Group Qualify (ST & PT cars only)

20 1:50 PM 2:10 PM 0:20 HPDE3

21 2:10 PM 2:30 PM 0:20 HPDE1 & HPDE2 (combined)

22 2:30 PM 2:50 PM 0:20 HPDE4

23 2:50 PM 3:05 PM 0:15 NASA TT Small Bore

24 3:05 PM 3:20 PM 0:15 NASA TT Big Bore

25 3:20 PM 3:50 PM 0:30 NASA Race Group (Spec cars)

26 3:50 PM 4:20 PM 0:30 NASA Race Group (ST & PT cars only)

27 4:20 PM 4:40 PM 0:20 HPDE3

28 4:40 PM 5:00 PM 0:20 HPDE1 & HPDE2 (combined)

29 5:01 PM n/a Track COLD / NASA BBQ!

 

 

 

Sunday

 

0 6:00 AM n/a Gates Open for all

0 6:00 AM 7:25 1:25 Tech Opens

0 6:30 AM n/a 1:10 Registration Opens

0 7:30 AM 7:40 AM 0:10 Mandatory Drivers Meeting at the NASA AZ trailer

1 7:50 AM 8:10 AM 0:20 HPDE4

2 8:10 AM 8:25 AM 0:15 NASA TT Small Bore

3 8:25 AM 8:40 AM 0:15 NASA TT Big Bore

4 8:40 AM 9:00 AM 0:20 NASA Race Group Warm Up (Spec cars only)

5 9:00 AM 9:20 AM 0:20 NASA Race Group Warm Up (ST & PT cars only)

6 9:20 AM 9:40 AM 0:20 HPDE3

7 9:40 AM 10:05 AM 0:25 HPDE1 & HPDE2 (combined)

8 10:05 AM 10:25 AM 0:20 HPDE4

9 10:25 AM 10:40 AM 0:15 NASA TT Small Bore

10 10:40 AM 10:55 AM 0:15 NASA TT Big Bore

11 10:55 AM 11:20 AM 0:25 NASA Spec Car Qualifying Race

12 11:20 AM 11:35 AM 0:15 NASA Race Group Qualify (ST & PT cars)

13 11:35 AM 11:55 AM 0:20 HPDE3

14 11:55 AM 12:15 PM 0:20 HPDE1 & 2 - Race Group Meeting (@ Reg Rm)

15 12:15 PM 12:45 PM 0:30 Lunch / Time Correction

16 12:45 PM 1:05 PM 0:20 HPDE4

17 1:05 PM 1:20 PM 0:15 NASA TT Small Bore

18 1:20 PM 1:35 PM 0:15 NASA TT Big Bore

19 1:35 PM 2:00 PM 0:25 NASA Spec car Main Race

20 2:00 PM 2:30 PM 0:30 NASA Race Group (ST & PT cars) - TA Meeting @ Tech Shed

21 2:30 PM 2:35 PM 0:05 Time Correction (time will be given to ST/PT Race if not needed)

22 2:35 PM 2:55 PM 0:20 HPDE3

23 2:55 PM 3:15 PM 0:20 HPDE1 & HPDE2 (combined)

24 3:15 PM 3:35 PM 0:20 HPDE4

25 3:35 PM 3:55 PM 0:20 NASA TT (Combined)

26 3:55 PM 4:15 PM 0:20 HPDE3

27 4:15 PM 4:35 PM 0:20 HPDE1 & HPDE2 (combined)

28 4:35 PM 5:00 PM 0:25 UMS Tuning Time Attack

[Vinny]

Done! We'll have 4 total sessions per day. Thank you, Jon!

 

http://www.nasaracing.net/Summit_Aug_10/event.htm

 

 

While i like the idea, this i see is going to suck for instructors who run TT. Only 1 session each day doesn't follow an HPDE 1 or 2 group session.

 

So if any instructor has both a group 1 and 2 student. You'll be lucky to see a lap or two before checkered.

 

Come off track with student( TT Already out)

Debrief student

strap in car and head to grid

 

i just don't see this working, I understand what a privilege it is to be able to run TT instead of de4. With this layout i for see my self not instructing.

 

 

edit: After looking over the schedule some more, could we simply flip flop TT and the DE groups so they follow TT rather then lead? I think it's easier for an instructor in TT to simply come in 5 minutes early, rather then go out 10 minutes late. This will keep 10-15 cold cars entering a hot track and trying to lay down a lap.

[MSP608]

edit: After looking over the schedule some more, could we simply flip flop TT and the DE groups so they follow TT rather then lead? I think it's easier for an instructor in TT to simply come in 5 minutes early, rather then go out 10 minutes late. This will keep 10-15 cold cars entering a hot track and trying to lay down a lap.

 

Amen to that! I feel like most people get their fast lap done within the first couple laps and then pull in, myself included. Coming in early for a student would definitely be a lot easier than going out late. And right on about cold cars entering a hot track. It could be dangerous, and also frustrating if you happen to go out near a lot of traffic.

[boomn29]

How do you split it? With 40 car grids spliting a session is untenable.

 

Not really sure what you mean? For Arizona 40 cars is really too many for TT given we have 1.5 miles to play with. So about 20 per works pretty well. Drivers are happy and the economics work. As I said each region is different so that may not work for you guys. I was just saying that TT is doing well in Arizona and is popular. We use shorter 15 minute sessions and it seems to work great. We also split the group. Again that works great for out region given out cost structures, attendance make up and track length.

In the MW/GL we have several tracks < 2.0 miles; with 2 @ 1.6. And in May we had 38 cars all running TT together. Does it work - yes. Does it take some give-and-take including getting to grid on time and clean passing and most of all a smooth run out (without a pace car to slow the last few turns down) - definitely. And as Skip mentioned; if we're late to grid we get held back 2 laps to not screw up the staggered lead out.

A lot of the guys run A6's anyways so they'll be off in 3 laps. That's easier to work with when you running laptimes < 1:30 too.

 

I know it's been stated in earlier threads, but we in the MW/GL's have been running 5 - 15min sessions in TT since last year. We asked for it - and we got it. Running just 2 race groups affords that luxury though as well as sometimes combining HPDE 1/2 or 3/4 depending on turnout.

Another benefit is that those that instruct don't feel bad if they miss a session or 2; cause you've still got plenty of options. We also usually get our 3rd on Sunday by 1-2pm and then the guys that drove 4+ hours start taking off.

[944-Spec#94]

How do you split it? With 40 car grids spliting a session is untenable.

 

Not really sure what you mean? For Arizona 40 cars is really too many for TT given we have 1.5 miles to play with. So about 20 per works pretty well. Drivers are happy and the economics work. As I said each region is different so that may not work for you guys. I was just saying that TT is doing well in Arizona and is popular. We use shorter 15 minute sessions and it seems to work great. We also split the group. Again that works great for out region given out cost structures, attendance make up and track length.

In the MW/GL we have several tracks < 2.0 miles; with 2 @ 1.6. And in May we had 38 cars all running TT together. Does it work - yes. Does it take some give-and-take including getting to grid on time and clean passing and most of all a smooth run out (without a pace car to slow the last few turns down) - definitely. And as Skip mentioned; if we're late to grid we get held back 2 laps to not screw up the staggered lead out.

A lot of the guys run A6's anyways so they'll be off in 3 laps. That's easier to work with when you running laptimes < 1:30 too.

 

I know it's been stated in earlier threads, but we in the MW/GL's have been running 5 - 15min sessions in TT since last year. We asked for it - and we got it. Running just 2 race groups affords that luxury though as well as sometimes combining HPDE 1/2 or 3/4 depending on turnout.

Another benefit is that those that instruct don't feel bad if they miss a session or 2; cause you've still got plenty of options. We also usually get our 3rd on Sunday by 1-2pm and then the guys that drove 4+ hours start taking off.

 

Looks like you guys have a format that works well for your tracks and your needs. Here in Arizona our longest track is 1.6 miles and shortest is 1.1 miles. We are almost entirely short track based. Even so I have run 40 cars on a 1.5 mile track. Yes it can work, but our guys like the split groups as it also moves the really fast cars away from the slower cars. Some guys in TT here turn 1:04 laps while others are 1:20's. That is big gap even when you grid the cars by lap times. Easy for the front end to run right into the tail end.

 

So we split the group. Make the TT drivers more happy and that inturns lead to more guys runnning TT as more will stay and more HPDE4 guys will make the jump.

 

We do the samething for race group. We have cut off of around 35-40 cars where we split the race group. In racing traffic is a clear part of the deal,but some newer drivers don't like being on track with ST1 and SU cars with 400 to 600 hp and 40 mph top speed advantage. Some guys don't like being lap 4 times in 30 minutes. So when we have the numbers we split the group and that is somethign that pretty much always apperciated. Even so I have run endors with 45 car fields PTE cars to SU cars on track . Yes it is busy and you will both gain spots and lose then in lap traffic, but it still racing. I once did DE with 50 cars on a 1.5 mile track. In DE setting it was nearly impossible to get clean lap in. At that point most guys would just not enjoy it.

[Jim P.]

While i like the idea, this i see is going to suck for instructors who run TT. Only 1 session each day doesn't follow an HPDE 1 or 2 group session.

 

So if any instructor has both a group 1 and 2 student. You'll be lucky to see a lap or two before checkered.

 

Come off track with student( TT Already out)

Debrief student

strap in car and head to grid

 

i just don't see this working, I understand what a privilege it is to be able to run TT instead of de4. With this layout i for see my self not instructing.

 

 

edit: After looking over the schedule some more, could we simply flip flop TT and the DE groups so they follow TT rather then lead? I think it's easier for an instructor in TT to simply come in 5 minutes early, rather then go out 10 minutes late. This will keep 10-15 cold cars entering a hot track and trying to lay down a lap.

We do this in our schedule - it takes lots of effort to come up with a schedule that works but it is doable. We do not allow racers to instruct because we use the race groups as buffers for TT and HPDE 4 and their students. With our schedule a racer would have to come in early from all of their sessions to instruct, I an fairly certain most racers won't do that...

[ff2skip]

Really enjoying all the feedback in here! Thanks!

 

I'll say that we're moving in a beneficial direction. Are we there yet? No, but we've left the gas station. We do not have the same amount of interest in TT as some other regions. Are our drivers that different? No, but there has never been an emphasis put on growing TT's here(Mid-A). Jon has done what i believe to be a great job creating a safe, inviting atmosphere for us, and the increased numbers show how important that is. :thumbup: to Jon! My goal is to actually grow the numbers to the point that instructors aren't "needed" to make a decent field spanning all classes. That in no way means we don't want instructors participating. In fact, I believe students seeing their instructors TT'ing will generate questions directly related to TT'ing and hopefully be one way to expose our run group a little more.

 

Again, thank you all, Mid-A and beyond, for chiming in! See you on the track/paddock!!!

 

Skip

[Varkwso]

Really enjoying all the feedback in here! ....

 

...Again, thank you all, Mid-A and beyond, for chiming in! See you on the track/paddock!!!

 

Skip

 

You can learn a lot from out of region experience. I run in every one I get a chance to.

[brkntrxn]

On the note of instructors Time Trialing. I fully understand the need at times for instructors to have two students and in truth, the free track time an instructor gets from HPDE4 is technically the same value as Time Trial. However, a LOT of the time trialing instructors also spend $500-1500 a pop on Hoosiers (usually once or more per year) to support the contingency program in hopes of winning a tire. It would be nice to TT and only have one student, especially when there are a justifiable number of backup instructors with no students in attendance.

 

 

My .02. I just appreciate the program...and plan on running more of them next year.

 

 

 

-Kevin

[kbrew8991]

here's an idea - just an idea - what about an option for an instructor to register to have only 1 student and pay for some of their entry fee ($100ish?) and still have a choice to drive in DE4 or TT.

[Eric W.]

All great ideas except for the fact that Skip bribed Cobetto to remove Thunder practice to get an extra TT session in

[Varkwso]

OK I know I am slow, both on and off track, but why is DE4 a right and TT a privilege in MA for instructors?

 

PCA charges instructors and when an event costs $195 and instructors pay $100 seems a no brainer to me which way I go. If an instructor pays he is a customer not a contract employee.

 

Of course sitting at Midway airport at 0500 gives me too much time to use my blackberry

[brkntrxn]

here's an idea - just an idea - what about an option for an instructor to register to have only 1 student and pay for some of their entry fee ($100ish?) and still have a choice to drive in DE4 or TT.

 

 

Personally, that might work for some, but I would not be willing to pay it. With the aforementioned $1200 set of tires, pads, rotors, etc., I am not willing to pay even more for a chance to win a $300 tire, or much less a piece of wood.

 

For those of us that time trial the faster cars (TTA-TTR), we are 3 laps and done. We put down the least amount of track time of anyone at the event and I am not willing to pay more for my low amount of track time. The track time I get with a student in the car is THEIR time, since I am driving at a reduced pace and using the extra time to continue coaching them.

 

If we are talking about a lapping day in conjunction with an HPDE1/2 event, then yes, I would be willing to pay extra because I can turn the extra time into lots of practice laps. Some other organizations do such a thing in order to maximize instructor track time for lapping/practice.

 

 

-Kevin

[Jim P.]

Of course sitting at Midway airport at 0500 gives me too much time to use my blackberry

Been there, done that - don't slide off the end of the runway - the traffic there is crazy!

[ThePaul]

edit: After looking over the schedule some more, could we simply flip flop TT and the DE groups so they follow TT rather then lead? I think it's easier for an instructor in TT to simply come in 5 minutes early, rather then go out 10 minutes late. This will keep 10-15 cold cars entering a hot track and trying to lay down a lap.

 

Amen to that! I feel like most people get their fast lap done within the first couple laps and then pull in, myself included. Coming in early for a student would definitely be a lot easier than going out late. And right on about cold cars entering a hot track. It could be dangerous, and also frustrating if you happen to go out near a lot of traffic.

 

Totally Agree. At VIR in July, even though I was assigned one student I ended up having to cover for an HPDE2 student for every session except for last one on Sunday... and that meant the grp 2 student would drive me to my car (after TT had gone out), I'd hop out, strap into my car, drive to grid, go out late and ruin someone's flying lap. This happened every time. I wanted to tape "I'm Sorry" to my rear window! It is infinitely easier to come in off track early, park the car somewhere, and hop in a students. It's also much safer since it reduces the number of late arrivals for TT going out on track and hugging the right down through T1.

 

All of that being said, I can't stress enough how much of a privilege it is to be able to instruct AND do TT, so no matter what the schedule is like I'll be happy!

 

Oh, and while we are at it, why not ditch the warmup and make that a timed session? My fastest time were are always in warm up (i suppose since i'm not as rushed to get out)

[getfast]

Oh, and while we are at it, why not ditch the warmup and make that a timed session?

 

It's for safety. Traditionally we have the highest number of 4-offs/spins during that first session, and if we made it count toward the results I'm sure that number would be higher, due to people pushing too hard too early.

[nasaregistrar]

OK I know I am slow, both on and off track, but why is DE4 a right and TT a privilege in MA for instructors?

TT is a competition session where there are contingencies paid. DE4 is not. The track time that instructors receive is 'payment' for their services and that is provided in DE4, offering the opportunity to compete for contingencies is a bonus but each driver needs to decide if the logistics are viable for them.

[kbrew8991]

that's just MA's attitude. Its different in other regions - just like some places you can race and instruct, others you can't. Its all in the demographics, sizes and numbers of run groups, etc, etc, etc. Definitely no one-size-fits-all deal.

[nasaregistrar]

that's just MA's attitude. Its different in other regions - just like some places you can race and instruct, others you can't. Its all in the demographics, sizes and numbers of run groups, etc, etc, etc. Definitely no one-size-fits-all deal.

Correct Ken,

 

All the regions run slightly differently due to size, number of groups, the way HPDE is structured, etc.

[944-Spec#94]

that's just MA's attitude. Its different in other regions - just like some places you can race and instruct, others you can't. Its all in the demographics, sizes and numbers of run groups, etc, etc, etc. Definitely no one-size-fits-all deal.

 

Correct.

 

This one of the best thing about the NASA model. Each local region has vested interest in maintaining and increasing attendance. They also have some freedom in doing what works in their regions to do that. We in Arizona have number of racer and TT instructors. We also tend to have 1 student per instructor. Instructors pay very discounted entry fee in exhange for their service. This may not work for all regions, but it works for us given who are our instructors and the way our region runs. I know that Az would be upsetting alot regulars if you could not TT / Race and instruct. We can make it work, so that is what is important. I can appericate that other regions might not be able to make that work or have enough instructors to not need to pull on TT or Race guys. Again flexibility is what makes NASA good rather than a "One size fits all" approach of other organizations.

[Varkwso]

that's just MA's attitude. Its different in other regions - just like some places you can race and instruct, others you can't. Its all in the demographics, sizes and numbers of run groups, etc, etc, etc. Definitely no one-size-fits-all deal.

 

 

Yes it is different....one size never fits all.

[Varkwso]

OK I know I am slow, both on and off track, but why is DE4 a right and TT a privilege in MA for instructors?

TT is a competition session where there are contingencies paid. DE4 is not. The track time that instructors receive is 'payment' for their services and that is provided in DE4, offering the opportunity to compete for contingencies is a bonus but each driver needs to decide if the logistics are viable for them.

 

Not quite following the logic flow here on the difference here. Pretty sure MA does not fund the contingencies. Sometimes it is an instructor but a TTer on average spends more then the standard DE guy (if they are winning that is) and I sign most of the TT ones down here in the SE.

 

But it is the regions choice to run it like they choose.

[ff2skip]

Can't say it enough that I personally appreciate the posts in here. Apparently a few of you care enough to take the time to write, and that's what I need to support any changes going forward. Be mindful, however, that we are not the only run group with needs.

 

For the record, I used to instruct and TT. It didn't take long to figure out that I didn't want to do both in the same weekend. In the Mid-A, instructors are usually paired with two students. That speaks highly of the numbers the region normally attracts/retains in its HPDE program. Ideally we're grooming 1's & 2's to move up and sometimes out of that program and into instructing, TT'ing, or racing.

 

In the Mid-A, TT numbers are relatively low compared to other run groups. As a result, track spacing is usually quite good. I run decent times around Summit Main for a TTB car. I can't tell you how many times I've had to be in part of a train in HPDE 4. VIR, not so much. So to me, running TT, despite its shortcomings with regards to overall track time used, is superior in quality to HPDE sessions by virtue of open track and the thrill of competition. And that's where the major line is drawn between the two- competition. Wanna work on skill? Turn laps in DE. Wanna push hard(er)? TT or race. Personally, I probably should be spending more time working on honing skills than competing, but... that's another story.

 

Running with SE earlier this year was a great experience in that I got to witness another program. I witnessed them gridding by the day's best time. This was important as they ran 3-4 timed sessions each day, maybe five on Sunday. Heaven knows I sure as heck couldn't run them all- it was H-O-T-T-T-T!!! A little sneaky they were though when it came to Saturday's final results. Last session results were not posted before the awards. I heard the reason was to keep more folks around for said awards. That may be something we try at a later date.

 

Another thing I saw was the Sunday morning session being timed. Because of the weather, I was elated to see that. My car runs like junk in the heat. But what Jon alluded to is entirely correct: there are ALWAYS more offs in the first session of the day. As we educate and incentify(did I just make a new word up?) our TT'ers, perhaps in the future we may gain that Sunday morning session. In this case, the TT'ers absolutely determine their own fate. A pattern of non-offs would surely sway those that have final say. Afterall, safety is still on our minds.

 

If you've read this far, thank you! If I may, those of you wanting more track time in the TT format, I want to direct you to our November event at Summit Point. It is comprised only of TT's and HPDE's- no race groups(in our case that's three run groups NOT participating). Cool temps and lots o' track time!!! We also raise money for charity in the name of our late friend, Cale #57. A large turnout would serve two purposes: 1) signify to our regional director that TT's is growing and will be heard and 2) to remember and honor a super individual in Cale.

 

Thanks for your time,

Skip

[drivinhardz06]

Another thing I saw was the Sunday morning session being timed. Because of the weather, I was elated to see that. My car runs like junk in the heat. But what Jon alluded to is entirely correct: there are ALWAYS more offs in the first session of the day. As we educate and incentify(did I just make a new word up?) our TT'ers, perhaps in the future we may gain that Sunday morning session. In this case, the TT'ers absolutely determine their own fate. A pattern of non-offs would surely sway those that have final say. Afterall, safety is still on our minds.

 

I understand Jon's comments totally, but my take on it is, if you got a TT license, then you outta be able to (mentally) control your car from flinging it off the track regardless of wether you run it at 8 am or 5 pm. If you can't, then you don't need to be out there.

 

I don't recall any TT'ers going off in this past sunday's RA first am session (there may have been) but at least the guy's in front of and behind me behaved, and not only that, everybody picked up time lap time 1 hr later in the next session. The track had more grip. This tells me everybody drove within the tracks limits on the first session even though the conditions weren't ideal and were more slick.

[kbrew8991]

I see DQs for maybe 3-4 offs/spins per weekend in TX. No untimed warmup sessions. 14 was our lowest turnout, 30 was the highest, average of 21.7 per weekend.

 

Just a data point