Any chance of trying multiple 15 minute sessions in MA?

[ff2skip]

Another thing I saw was the Sunday morning session being timed. Because of the weather, I was elated to see that. My car runs like junk in the heat. But what Jon alluded to is entirely correct: there are ALWAYS more offs in the first session of the day. As we educate and incentify(did I just make a new word up?) our TT'ers, perhaps in the future we may gain that Sunday morning session. In this case, the TT'ers absolutely determine their own fate. A pattern of non-offs would surely sway those that have final say. Afterall, safety is still on our minds.

 

I understand Jon's comments totally, but my take on it is, if you got a TT license, then you outta be able to (mentally) control your car from flinging it off the track regardless of wether you run it at 8 am or 5 pm. If you can't, then you don't need to be out there.

 

I don't recall any TT'ers going off in this past sunday's RA first am session (there may have been) but at least the guy's in front of and behind me behaved, and not only that, everybody picked up time lap time 1 hr later in the next session. The track had more grip. This tells me everybody drove within the tracks limits on the first session even though the conditions weren't ideal and were more slick.

I agree with you. And I hesitate to speak for Jon, but I'm guessing he agrees as well. This is where it's up to the drivers to be accountable unto themselves and peers and show a pattern befitting the director's trust. As we grow, I have every confidence that we will gain that 1st session Sunday morning as a timed one.

 

To be fair, offs are going to happen. We're pushing the limits if we're doing it right. Heaven knows I've had my fair share. Heck, when we ran North Course this year on Sunday, I didn't stay on course until the very final session. First "off" was when I decided that no matter what, I wanted to execute the uphill esses of the Full Course! LOL

[ff2skip]

I see DQs for maybe 3-4 offs/spins per weekend in TX. No untimed warmup sessions. 14 was our lowest turnout, 30 was the highest, average of 21.7 per weekend.

 

Just a data point

We're not there... yet!

 

I think we had 47 cars for the July VIR event, largely due to UTCC cars hanging around. I think we had 40+ at last November's Summit event, too.

[kbrew8991]

don't feel too bad, last year's average was only 15.25 per weekend, low of 5, high of 22. We came along way this year and word keeps spreading

 

I'm also amazed at how close the points race for TTU, TTS, TTA, and TTB is:

viewtopic.php?f=26&t=36170

 

22 people in line for 12 podium spots

[getfast]

VIR last month was like ~7 session dq's a day for spins or offs, from memory, out of ~45 cars. That's too many.

[drivinhardz06]

To be fair, offs are going to happen. We're pushing the limits if we're doing it right.

 

Absolutely. And frankly that's what I love about TT, is the intensity. W2W you can tell where the guy is you have to beat, in TT, you have no idea if the guy behind you is 4 tenths up on you or 4 tenths down, so all you can do is get up on the wheel and dance on the fishing line

 

Still though, IMHO, when you are handed a TT license you are being told "you are now educated, experienced, skilled, and responsible enough to run your car flat out and control it in a reasonable manor". At the point a license is handed over, NASA should/could expect us to run flat out at any time and have good results. If they can't, maybe we shouldn't have licenses?

 

Not that any of us are responsible btw

[drivinhardz06]

VIR last month was like ~7 session dq's a day for spins or offs, from memory, out of ~45 cars. That's too many.

 

still not as bad as watching NASCAR on a road course

[Varkwso]

VIR last month was like ~7 session dq's a day for spins or offs, from memory, out of ~45 cars. That's too many.

 

45 x4 sessions with 7 DQs = ~4% spin rate. Beats the race groups and many DEs. And I prefer spins and controlled offs to heroic actions to try to save the session...less carnage.

 

So far, we have had limited (maybe even none) car to car in TT in our region. Part of that is due to grid by best time of the day, rigid enforcement of late shows to grid, and stringent enforcement of driving etiquette. And since we have the best drivers in NASA TT it makes it easy. I will not hunt you down in the paddock for paper (I just DQ you) but I will search the paddock for driver actions. It helps and if they cannot keep the car on track or make clean passes (either side of the equation) they need to do something else for a while.

 

TT often has the fastest laps at an event over the race groups (10 seconds faster at Rd Atl) - nature of the beast - fast lap vs first over finish line. Fast cars pushing setup limits get loose.

 

Spin rates decrease with:

 

- Clear communications of TT processes and procedures at the morning meeting. Goes back to my roots - brief the session and then drive the session. No one should doubt regional procedures when they grid.

 

-No passengers, no test and tune, no racer shakedowns - everyone is focused on fast lap not sorting the car or bedding the brakes for the race.

 

-Saturday AM being practice (gridded by class not time). I think the offs still happen but they happen at slower speed.

 

- gridding by fastest time of the day - keeps aggression down to get clear track. We ignore DQs for grid position - it works for us. Again it keeps the fast ones up front instead of making passes early.

 

- Drivers talking with other drivers about the session and directors talking to drivers about sessions. Fist fights are optional and discouraged.

 

- Not putting cold cars on hot tracks. I was late to grid at VIR several times since I had students. I strapped in and headed to grid - I had no idea where the TT group was - I was put out about 1/4 lap ahead of the TT pack on their first lap at least once. I spent my first lap hauling the mail in the bad passing zones and parking in the straights to get the real contenders their clean laps to the best of my ability to get where I was in the flow.

 

-Many of the TTers have race licenses and some think they do. After two laps of getting blocked in the curvy parts by a straight line rocket most people get aggressive. TT is not the place for it but my horns come out when I get blocked. Same thing if someone cuts me off after I give them the pass the next time they get behind me I get as wide as ZO6cool at a Brazillian Steak House Buffet. Goes back to TT courtesy.

 

-Hold the driver responsible for actions.

 

In a 15 minute session a local yellow does little damage. Full course yellow, black or red kill a 15 minute session or a 40 minute race for that matter.

 

SE has had 114 TTers so far this year and the Road Atlanta events often have waiting lists to get into TT. There are 5 or so who have near perfect attendance at events. TT is one of the largest in the other SE events. TT is a growing and keeping current TTers is easier then finding more (6 checkrides at Road Atlanta this month). Most of the folks I started TTing with in 2005/2006 are W2W racing if they still participate with NASA so we lose some there. Some still TT so they can win some tires...

 

Now if I can get Jim to give me seven or eight 15 minute TT sessions a day at Road Atlanta.

[nasaregistrar]

OK I know I am slow, both on and off track, but why is DE4 a right and TT a privilege in MA for instructors?

TT is a competition session where there are contingencies paid. DE4 is not. The track time that instructors receive is 'payment' for their services and that is provided in DE4, offering the opportunity to compete for contingencies is a bonus but each driver needs to decide if the logistics are viable for them.

 

Not quite following the logic flow here on the difference here. Pretty sure MA does not fund the contingencies. Sometimes it is an instructor but a TTer on average spends more then the standard DE guy (if they are winning that is) and I sign most of the TT ones down here in the SE.

 

But it is the regions choice to run it like they choose.

No, MA does not fund the contingencies. We do need to create a schedule that works for ALL the groups. The logic is that we offer a spot for instructors to have their track time not be in conflict with their student's track time. If they want to compete in TT, then they need to accept that there may be conflicts. With 3 race groups, our schedule has less flexibility than regions with only two.

[getfast]

edit: After looking over the schedule some more, could we simply flip flop TT and the DE groups so they follow TT rather then lead? I think it's easier for an instructor in TT to simply come in 5 minutes early, rather then go out 10 minutes late. This will keep 10-15 cold cars entering a hot track and trying to lay down a lap.

 

Amen to that! I feel like most people get their fast lap done within the first couple laps and then pull in, myself included. Coming in early for a student would definitely be a lot easier than going out late. And right on about cold cars entering a hot track. It could be dangerous, and also frustrating if you happen to go out near a lot of traffic.

 

Guys, just an update, consider this handled for the coming weekend at Summit - and hopefully beyond.

 

Please thank Mr. Chris Cobetto for listening to what the participants want, and finding the time to do yet another schedule revision. A whole bunch of TT sessions are now just before instructed HPDE sessions instead of just after. The updated schedule pdf's will be online soon thanks to James Packer, linked from http://www.nasaracing.net/Summit_Aug_10/event.htm (version 2 which is up now may not be final, a couple of the session lengths may be incorrect but they should show the revised session order at least.)

 

And please be sure to let us know what you think after the weekend - TT'ers and TT'ing instructors too! We can't make things better without opinions, constructive criticism, etc. We always want to hear what you loved, and what you merely liked.

 

Many thanks,

 

Jon

[ff2skip]

Outstanding!

 

It appears that Saturday's is amended, but Sunday hasn't been updated at this time. Thank you, Jon, for championing our cause!

[brkntrxn]

Excellent news. I look forward to the new schedule when I get to run with MA again.

 

Thank you for listening to the masses and being open to changes.

 

 

-Kevin

[jason]

Awesome work.

[Varkwso]

Excellent news. I look forward to the new schedule when I get to run with MA again.

 

Thank you for listening to the masses and being open to changes.

 

 

-Kevin

 

Ditto.

[getfast]

Here is a summary of changes/clarifications to the NASA-MA TT program effective Aug 21-22, 2010 @ Summit Point, as a result of this thread as well as many private discussions over the last few months:

 

 

1) There is a revised event schedule, now 4 sessions per day. Standard format is warmup then three timed sessions. There is also a re-ordered schedule pertaining to TT'ing instructors - most TT sessions that were immediately following various instructed HPDE sessions at past events are now just before 'em instead.

 

2) Optional "good Saturday behavior" format on Sunday is all four sessions timed, with the first one lined up by prior day final results.

 

3) Third (and optional fourth) timed session each day will be lined up by each driver's fastest time so far that day, not counting warmup times.

 

4) Any TT'er to grid late (i.e. after the pace car has left with the field) may be held at least until after the pack takes the green flag.

 

5) Any off, spin, incident, etc during a warmup will now result in a DQ of session times for both the first and second timed sessions that day, as well as possibly being parked for a session (depending on severity of offense.)

 

6) DQ of a session time on the results does not make you start at the back for later sessions.

 

7) All TT cars must display TT class clearly on both sides or risk being black-flagged and parked until that is corrected.

 

 

Registered drivers, you've got a big email from me explaining these things and much more. As always... questions and feedback are welcomed.

 

Thanks and see you soon,

 

Jon

[drivinhardz06]

[ThePaul]

Wow, after driving new style schedule Saturday, switching back to the old style schedule Sunday was hard. LOVE THE NEW SCHEDULE. I was able to go out in each session, get in my flying (relatively) lap, come in, grab my student and plan our attack for their session and still had time to spare. Talk about zero stress. Also loved the blue and debris flag that flew as a warning to instructors to get the hell off the track! Here's to hoping the new style schedule will live on past this weekend (and for both days)!

[getfast]

Here is a summary of changes/clarifications to the NASA-MA TT program effective Aug 21-22, 2010 @ Summit Point

 

HUGE THANKS to all of you who made this happen!

 

From an organizational standpoint this was probably the smoothest TT weekend we have ever run. Just a few minor offs/spins Saturday, and not a single one today.

 

I thought the new changes worked out well, but as we said at the drivers meeting, feedback on here is the best way to let us know what you thought.

 

More thoughts on this after a 12 hour nap,

 

Jon

[Vinny]

Granted i didn't instruct this event, this schedule was awesome. I never seen a checkered flag all weekend, as i came in early each session. Still felt as if i got lots of seat time, no doubt in my mind this played part of the reason i went faster each session. Had time to come up with a game plan each time.

 

Car felt great on the new bushings, track felt way better then it did in june. Another great event from NASA MA.

[ff2skip]

More thoughts on this after a 12 hour nap,

 

Jon

^ This... but in two 6-hr stints starting... now. :thud: :zzzzzz: