AI RM is unofficially dead!

[mustcone347]

American Iron is dead in the RM region.....................nice work guys.

 

Check out our entry list for an upcoming event in a week and the complete lack of a Thunder group. Seemed last few years we had pretty good Thunder fields..................now nothing. I guess thats what happens when you flip the bird to the GM guys.

 

ps this is coming from a blue oval driver

 

seriously you guys (the powers that be) need a head check.

 

 

 

 

Blitz Race Group

 

7 GTS2 Gary Bohn Arvada CO BMW M3 1998

22 GTS4 Scott Bove Conifer CO BMW E46 M3 2005 Stop Tech / Privacy Star

30 GTS2 Gene Dackonish Grand Junction CO BMW E-30 325i 1989

36 GTS2 Lee Bohning Grand Junction CO BMW M3 1995 Alpine Autohaus

43 GTS2 Doug Young Westminster CO BMW M3 1995

44 GTS3 Doug Grande Longmont CO BMW M3 1995 OneGrandeRacing / Taggart Insurance

54 GTS4 Garrett Walz Longmont CO BMW M3 2004 http://www.scrperformance.com / Built-by-Bones

67 STR2 Charles Taylor denver CO porsche 944 1984 http://www.ironhorseracing.com

90 GTS3 Troy Nakatani Lafayette CO Porsche 911 1985

251 GTS2 Bob Butler Colorado Springs CO BMW 325is 1993 Engineering Systems Inc.\ Hoosier\ Hawk

 

Lightning Race Group

 

2 944 Spec Christopher Venturini littleton CO Porsche 944 1985 http://www.racerender.com http://www.nasarockymountain.com

7 CMC David Sealander Peyton CO Chevy Camaro 1983 Steve Mills Racing; Empirical Environmental

8 CMC Team Incidental Contact Goodland KS Ford Mustang 1986 Hanksville Hot Rods

43 944 Spec Ashley Burt Gunnison CO Porsche 944 1985 944 MotorWerks / Snyder Motorsports

43 CMC2 Raybob Coleman Littleton CO Chevrolet Camaro Z28 1998 the mighty Dudes Framing Corp

47 944 Spec Lee Hodgson Carbondale CO Porsche 944 1984 http://www.mountainmeadownaturals.com\ downvalleytrash.com \ CDOC\ Hawk Brakes

57 CMC Brad Densmore Colorado Springs CO Chevrolet Camaro 1991 Steve Mills Racing

71 CMC Richard Vogl Castle Rock CO Ford Mustang Fox 1989 http://www.absicontrols.com

77 944 Spec David Dirks Loveland CO Porsche 924S 1988 944 Motorwerks

77 944 Spec Michelle Dirks Loveland CO Porsche 924S 1988 944 MotorWerks

 

HPDE 1

 

1 HPDE1: Rik Noring Pueblo CO Chevrolet Corvette 2005 Corvette Center of Colorado Springs

3 HPDE1: Sat Sun Laura Scott Boulder CO BMW M3 2011

11 HPDE1: Sat Sun James Mershon Littleton CO Mazda Miata 1994

12 HPDE1: Sat Sun Pete Norman Pueblo West CO BMW 325is 1987 NONE

19 HPDE1: Mike Vella castle rock CO ford shelby gt 500 2007

30 HPDE1: Sat Sun Nick Thiemann Englewood CO BMW 328is 1998

47 HPDE1: Sat Sun Kate Lawrence Boulder CO BMW Z4 2007

69 HPDE1: Igor Cosic Aurora CO SUBARU IMPREZA 2009

187 HPDE1: Robert Danyluk Colorado Springs CO Chevy Corvette 2006 NONE

283 HPDE1: Richard Malmros Berthoud CO Nissan 350Z 6-Speed Touring 2004

771 HPDE1: Sat Sun Peter Williams Lafayette CO BMW M3 1998

 

HPDE 2

 

11 HPDE2: Sat Sun Todd Barker Fort Collins CO BMW M3 2006

 

HPDE 3

 

1 HPDE3: Sat Sun Fred Hudson Jr Aurora CO Eagle Talon ES 1993 Wife\ Jordan

5 HPDE3: Sat Sun Jon Whiteley Denver CO Chevrolet Corvette Z06 2008

6 HPDE3: chris possehl Colorado Springs CO Nissan GT-R 2010

6 HPDE3: Sat Sun Lisa Bryan Highlands Ranch CO GT3 996 2004

15 HPDE3: Sat Sun James Lashley Loveland CO Nissan 240sx 1993 JBLMETALWORKS

41 HPDE3: Sat Sun Joshua Brauer Arvada CO Ford Mustang GT 2009

74 HPDE3: Brad Kettler Denver CO BMW M3 1999

77 HPDE3: Sat Sun Steve Maxwell Denver CO Chevrolet Corvette Z06 2010

86 HPDE3: Sat Sun John Roberts Ranchos de Taos NM Mazda Miata MX-5 1995 none

94 HPDE3: Sat Sun Christopher Mayfield Fort Collins CO BMW M3 1997 SCR Performance

197 HPDE3: Sat Sun Jason Purdum boulder CO Nissan GT-R 2010 Boulder Nissan

 

HPDE 4

 

5 HPDE4 Michael DeRock Arvada CO BMW 325i 1992

25 HPDE4 Christopher Snobeck Boulder CO Mazda Miata 1999 Unitycom.com

27 HPDE4 Tim Greenshields Greeley CO Ferrari 355 Berlinetta 1997

39 HPDE4 Michael Pederson Englewood CO Audi R8 2008

43 HPDE4 David Tyree Denver CO Mazda Miata 1996

47 HPDE4 Lee Hodgson Carbondale CO Porsche 944 1984 http://www.mountainmeadownaturals.com\ downvalleytrash.com \ CDOC\ Hawk Brakes

50 HPDE4 Christina Werley Parker CO BMW M3 2008 MW3 Motorsports

71 HPDE4 Mike Lackey Colorado Springs CO Pontiac GTA Transam 1989

82 HPDE4 Scott Henderson Denver CO Porsche 911 1993

93 HPDE4 Bruce M. Smith Thornton CO Corvette Coupe 1965 Ignite Performance

901 HPDE4 Kevin Gosselin Englewood CO Porsche 944 1983 Writer Racing

 

Time Trial

 

3 TTS Richard Lavender Arvada CO Chevy Corvette Z06 2003 My 401K

7 TTS Joe Rothman Castle Rock CO Porsche GT3 2004 Quantum Motor Sports

11 TTD Cullen Winter Denver CO subaru impreza 2002

22 TTC Joel Gray Colorado Springs CO Nissan 350Z 2004 g3D Computer Graphics http://www.g3d.net

37 TTE Christopher Botts Colorado Springs CO Porsche 944 1984

42 TTR Robert Cowan Colorado Springs CO Factory Five Racing Roadster/Cobra 1965 Michele

43 TTE Ashley Burt Gunnison CO Porsche 944 1985 944 MotorWerks / Snyder Motorsports

57 TTC Del Armstrong Littleton CO Mazda Miata 2004

80 TTR Kevin Rogers Elizabeth CO Shelby Cobra Challenge Series 2000

87 TTB Jeff Werley Parker CO BMW 325is 1995 TurnerMotorsport\ Titan Specialty Metals\ Michaels Auto body

90 TTU Forrest Thompson Lakewood CO Chevrolet ZO-6 2008 US Army

95 TTD John Clark Simla CO BMW M3 1995 Snyder Motorsports\ Content Pros

111 TTR Joseph Roybal Santa Fe NM Radical SR3 2008

186 TTC John Scheier Parker CO BMW M3 1998 http://www.vorshlag.com - http://www.ast-usa.com

411 TTA Jim McKendree Parker CO Mitsubishi Evolution 2006 APR Performance\ DBA Brakes\ SPY Optics\ MW3 Motorsports\ JTM Equipment

609 TTE Zung Tran Erie CO BMW 330i 2004 Bionovo; Firefighter Combat Challenge

913 TTS Brian Cox Fort Collins CO Porsche GT3 2004 C&B Racing

[sperkins]

From what you posted, HPDE 2 looks dead too.

[Jay A.]

Other Classes that are not represented on the list:

Spec Miata, Honda Challenge 1-4, Performance Touring, Super Touring, Super Unlimited, Spec3, Spec E30,Factory Five, Time Trials....etc.

 

From the car counts it looks like the two run groups are only 11 per run group. A lot of regions in the east are selling out run groups at over 40 per run group and some have 3 run groups.

 

It doesn’t seem fair to blame our American Iron leaders for the death of a class in a region where the car counts are low in most classes. I would say that Dave and Revkah Balingit, Chuck Taylor and all the other Group leaders are doing a great job maintaining and growing the Rocky Mountain region. It is unfortunate that car counts go up and down based on where the Nationals are located. In our Great Lakes region last year (a non Nationals year) our American Iron count at our first seasonal opener event was 1. This year with nationals at Mid-Ohio we are seeing car counts a lot higher (in most classes).

[Tommy55]

A lot of people wait until the last minute to register. Dave and Revkah do a great job promoting Nasa in the RM region. Compared to what we had 5 years ago i think all of our classes have grown by 500%. It is a shame that AI is dead in the RM region. I really like the class. It is just getting hard to afford. There is definitely some bias there that doesn't help the class at a national level. That's why AI turned to CMC2 in RM. We think it is a driver class and not a checkbook class. Maybe the powers above can make some changes in 2012 to help get the AI class under control and bring it back to grassroots racing. Just my 2cents.

 

Bring it back in 2012

[ninetyfourintegra]

any chance you can edit out the list of DE students? I bet many of them might not want there name/car showing up if a search is run should there be a claim somewhere along the way...

[sperkins]

I bet many of them might not want there name/car showing up if a search is run should there be a claim somewhere along the way...

You're kidding right?

[kbrew8991]

its a copy/paste from another thread/board. BFD.

[JWL]

Too bad to see this but then again looks like the "Rocky Mountain Rebels" are happy with CMC/CMC2.

 

Tommy, what changes do you think would change the GM Mullet Minds for 2012?

 

-JWL

[Tommy55]

NO ABS

KEEP IT GRASSROOTS

NO 302R

275/45/17 Toyo RA1 only

 

That's it.

[nape]

NO ABS

KEEP IT GRASSROOTS

NO 302R

275/45/17 Toyo RA1 only

 

That's it.

 

That would reign it in quite a bit. It's not impossible to change suspension geometry and a ton of other things on the car, but it's hard to compete with ABS that actually works well on track. Going back to 17" Toyos would cut a ton of cost out of the class. Basically, back to the 2006 rules.

 

I think it's pretty much a pipe dream though, Tommy. It wouldn't work with all the Mustangs running around at 3400+ lbs with 14" brakes and 18" wheels. They "need" 14" brakes. The path we're on will eventually push out all the people who are actually doing it on a grassroots budget. $4000 brake kits cost more then my engine, carb to pan.

 

We're looking at Spec Mustang in 2-3 years except for hold outs who love AI too much, are illegal for ST2, and can't afford to own a CMC car too (me). Anyone who can backup to CMC and drives a GM is doing it, and I don't blame them one bit.

[SNAKBITN]

I am new to AI and I do drive a 98 mustang with abs that works half ass.I would ditch it if that was in the rules and thinking about it anyway's.I think most of the guy's driving the S197's would not have a big problem ditching it if that was the rule but the 18'' wheels would be because of the major expense to replace the brake system.I don't believe that AI is headed to become a spec mustang class.The new camaro's are coming and with it's new technology and testing in a few years it will be alot more competitive.The 3rd and 4th gens are damn competitive now.In time they will get it worked out.But if you want to race AI come on over to the SE,cause we're growing.

 

Robert

(The glass is half full)

[supermac]

It is the ongoing accommodation of the Fr500 and the s-197 that got AI where it is. The 18 inch availability is just the final straw. Instead of making the handful of guys who "choose" to run 18's, run on 888's, nasa national decides to stick it to everyone.

In cmc the fox is deemed uncompetitive so it gets a 150# weight break against an ls1 4th gen. In AI, uncompetitive cars are told "try harder".

JWL I am in the middle of the RM region exodus, all that Tommy Raybob and the rest of us wanted was some effort, to help us and we got nadda.

I think its funny what you can say without saying anything at all.

Truth is we were on the edge of being able to run AI anyway. You guys just made it easy for us to go.

[svttim]

NO ABS

KEEP IT GRASSROOTS

NO 302R

275/45/17 Toyo RA1 only

 

That's it.

 

 

Why not Just make it a vintage class. 2001 and older only!

[nape]

Why not Just make it a vintage class. 2001 and older only!

 

That would pretty much split the fields and I'm sure there are guys with newer Mustangs that would rather run "old" AI then "new" AI and vice versa

 

I'm not trying to be a dick saying this, but you are new to racing with NASA (maybe any sanctioning body, not sure). At first, just being out there racing is awesome. After a season or two, racing 1-2 other cars gets boring for the amount of time, effort, and money it requires to keep the car going. Bigger fields equals more fun, because you usually end up with someone to race in class. So, splitting up the class is a no-win as far as I'm concerned. Talk to the CMC guys about that if you don't believe me, they're set to finally only have one rule set next year.

 

This is a broad statement, but most of the GM guys could care less if off-the-shelf 14" brakes, 18" wheels, and ABS make it easier to make a S197 faster or more reliable because there is just about nothing off-the-shelf for us. Off-the-shelf is a joke. It's easier to raid the circle track parts bin to design stuff yourself then it is to find a part worth buying. I'm looking at about $2000 and a couple hundred hours if I want to design a way to add decent ABS to my car and hope it works. That's about a third of my season budget and more time then my off-season prep allows. 4th gen cars are in a similar boat, they have ABS, but it sucks on track.

 

We haven't asked for a whole lot over the years, other then keeping the parts that used to be illegal (18" wheels, T56R, etc) or a non-issue (ABS used to suck for everyone) from being a performance advantage. My $.02

[svttim]

Why not Just make it a vintage class. 2001 and older only!

 

That would pretty much split the fields and I'm sure there are guys with newer Mustangs that would rather run "old" AI then "new" AI and vice versa

 

I'm not trying to be a dick saying this, but you are new to racing with NASA (maybe any sanctioning body, not sure). At first, just being out there racing is awesome. After a season or two, racing 1-2 other cars gets boring for the amount of time, effort, and money it requires to keep the car going. Bigger fields equals more fun, because you usually end up with someone to race in class. So, splitting up the class is a no-win as far as I'm concerned. Talk to the CMC guys about that if you don't believe me, they're set to finally only have one rule set next year.

 

This is a broad statement, but most of the GM guys could care less if off-the-shelf 14" brakes, 18" wheels, and ABS make it easier to make a S197 faster or more reliable because there is just about nothing off-the-shelf for us. Off-the-shelf is a joke. It's easier to raid the circle track parts bin to design stuff yourself then it is to find a part worth buying. I'm looking at about $2000 and a couple hundred hours if I want to design a way to add decent ABS to my car and hope it works. That's about a third of my season budget and more time then my off-season prep allows. 4th gen cars are in a similar boat, they have ABS, but it sucks on track.

 

We haven't asked for a whole lot over the years, other then keeping the parts that used to be illegal (18" wheels, T56R, etc) or a non-issue (ABS used to suck for everyone) from being a performance advantage. My $.02

 

Sorry TJ, I was being a bit of a smart a$$. I would not want to see the class split up either. I hear a lot of complaints about how the powers that be have screwed up the class. From that new guy perspective, I dont see anything except tire issues that have screwed up the class. As time passes, things change. As we speak, 18 in tires are giving way to 19 in wheels. Is there really an advantage from 18 to 19? The ABS still sucks although newer units certainly are better off.

 

As far as the GM issue, I cant help there. I have some sympathy though. I lived for many years with junkyard parts because no one made Ford parts. Now, the shoe is on the GM side.

 

Your not going to get beat by ABS, a T56R or 18 inch wheels, your too good of a driver

[Tommy55]

let me edit my post. I meant we need to stay on toyo RA1 's for tires. I think we should be able to keep the larger wheels to accommodate bigger brakes.

[robbodleimages]

i dont think staying on toyos or not is something that is really under nasa's control.

i think toyo remains locked in as long as toyo can pay its spec fee to nasa and provide

the tires.

 

if they tell nasa that they can't do it anymore and are pulling out, there wont be much of

an option. i think i read where scca has suspended their toyo requirement in their spec

tire classes as well.

[JWL]

Good discussion and it's funny that I have finally become a "power that be". Guess I need to start wearing collared shirts and drink more imported beer.

 

So, as I see it this boils down to ABS that works (S197 Ford) and little else. I think with some reasonable TraqMate data we may be able to quantify a difference and work on this for 2012. Todd and I will work on it for this Fall to see what we can do.

 

As for the 18's and Toyo's, this is tough as the 18's are most likely here to stay to accommodate brake kits (yes, non-ABS too) and the 18 inch RA1 is a hard size to keep in good supply based on past history.

 

Thanks for the thoughts and please feel free to add more!

 

-JWL

[CMC#11]

I'll add my opinion as a CMC racer who previously had AI hopes.

I've raced CMC for 6 years and there are two reasons I haven't made the AI switch: car count and $$$.

AI needs to find a way to get their previous GRASSROOTS racers back and new GRASSROOTS individuals to join. I was under the impression AI was formed with average joes in mind and not pro teams wanting a secondary racing venue. The rules need to reflect this.

 

ABS issue:

My understanding of AI is the rules make all platforms equal. Same HP / weight, same aero specs, wheel specs, caliper / rotor specs, etc.

Shouldn't the ABS units be of the same quality also?

The Fox's use the SN95 street unit, SN95's have their street unit, 4th gens have their street unit, S197's have their street unit. Oh, S197's also have race units. How is this fair?

Why not limit ABS to the factory provided unit sold in their standard street cars?

Isn't the goal to make all platforms equal?

[robbodleimages]

The S197 street ABS for Shelby GT500/Boss302/Mustang GT is the exact same ABS module as what is found in the race cars, FR500C, FR500S, Boss 302R. The only difference is that the street car ABS is tuned for street tires and the race ABS is tuned for the stickier racing tires. The correct ABS application for AI racing on Toyo tires is the street tuned module. Using the racing tire tuned module will create lockup.

[supermac]

I'll add my opinion as a CMC racer who previously had AI hopes.

I've raced CMC for 6 years and there are two reasons I haven't made the AI switch: car count and $$$.

AI needs to find a way to get their previous GRASSROOTS racers back and new GRASSROOTS individuals to join. I was under the impression AI was formed with average joes in mind and not pro teams wanting a secondary racing venue. The rules need to reflect this.

 

ABS issue:

My understanding of AI is the rules make all platforms equal. Same HP / weight, same aero specs, wheel specs, caliper / rotor specs, etc.

Shouldn't the ABS units be of the same quality also?

The Fox's use the SN95 street unit, SN95's have their street unit, 4th gens have their street unit, S197's have their street unit. Oh, S197's also have race units. How is this fair?

Why not limit ABS to the factory provided unit sold in their standard street cars?

Isn't the goal to make all platforms equal?

 

The way I understand it is that there is no way to tell which system is which, there used to be a rule banning them, but there was no way to enforce it. So with two choices infront of them they choose to make them all legal instead of making them all illegal.

 

And now Rob, with the tires opened up, anybody that doesn't have an Fr500 module in an s197 is at a disadvantage.

 

I don't think anybody would logically argue against that point.

 

Welcome to Mustang Challenge....oh wait they already tried that, how did it go?

[robbodleimages]

the first question for the long term is the toyo/spec tire question. right? if toyo is returning for the nationals or for 2012, then this is not even an issue.

 

if they are not, then there is definately a conversation.

 

the entire, you cant tell the difference between the race programmed module and the street programmed is moot if the toyo tire is the spec tire.

 

btw....the mustang challenge series died because the cars were too expensive. the cars were too expensive and you had to buy one of "their" cars. a serialized car. you could not build your own to specs like they do in grand am. that kept the price of used cars unrealistically high which perpetuated incorrectly high cost of putting a program together. i bought a grand am gs car for half the used cost of a mustang challenge two years ago and the gs car is twice the package of the challenge car.

 

had they just allowed that one change, that series would have been remarkably different. look at world challenge gts. 19 cars in that class alone at their last event.

[CMC#11]

the first question for the long term is the toyo/spec tire question. right? if toyo is returning for the nationals or for 2012, then this is not even an issue.

 

if they are not, then there is definately a conversation.

 

I disagree Rob.

There was much frustration regarding the AI rules long before the Toyo / spec tire issue even came up. The tire situation is just the cherry on top of the sundae IMO.

Still lots to be fixed.

[robbodleimages]

i meant regards the abs situation. as far as the rest is concerned i think that ai particpants and nasa home office need to come to a to some kind of understanding on how the class is going to move forwards as the years an technoligy and readily available parts are concerned.

 

its a difficult line to walk. its too easy to run much needed car count off to cmc on one end and st2 on the other end.

[mustcone347]

Glad to see this get a little traction. I think the general concensus in these parts is to keep the class simple for the working man. There is little chance that older cars get go head to newer chasis so why accommodate he newer technology. Instead handicap them in order to accommodate GMs, older mustangs and the like. I agree that newer cars will eventually take over but wtf they don't have to do it just because there is an over abundance of challenge, and grand am cars. If they want to be brought in at least hobble them a bit so there is parity in the class.

As far as the rm region I do not think there is one ex AI driver who really wants to drop down to cmc thats just silly talk. Most of those guys just want car count. Hell if you would have asked any of these guys to drop down to cmc a year or two ago they all would have laughed in your face. For gods sake in cmc your running with spec 944 cake eaters in the run group.

 

Hope this one figures itself out.