AI RM is unofficially dead!

[robbodleimages]

i think the definition of "hobble" is where the problems are found. of course anyone that knows the greaseman takes a completely different turn with that word.

[svttim]

From whatIm reading, Hobble=Non-competative

[Tommy55]

The way I see it is this. AI was an affordable, competitive class. We basically had 2 generations of gm and 2 or 3 generations of fords racing at a pretty close level. Aftermarket parts were readily available for most platforms and what was not available could be built in the garage with some friends and pbr's. then we could go race and test on weekends to see what worked and what didn't. It made it a true grass roots class and a car could be competitive for around 20k. Now we have a class that costs over 30k to be competitive and we are in an economy that really sucks. And the icing on the cake, Hoosiers. It's just all bad timing. AI was a class that was a step up from cmc that was competitive and fairly affordable. I say keep it the way it was a couple years ago. Use the 18'' brakes and no ABS. Pretty simple as I see it. We can let the new platforms in as it will be fairly easy to make the rules. It is power to weight, No abs, and a spec RA1 tire. If you want ABS and Hoosiers, GO TO AIX. Just my 2 cents

 

I really don't want to sound like a whiner. GM has had it good for a while. But never as good as ford has it now. Just try to make it even as possible and keep it a drivers class. Look at all the other classes that have been destroyed for reasons like this. Don't let it happen to AI, it is not ready yet. It is too easy to bring all cars to the past AI rules

[D Algozine]

I strongly agree with Michael and Tommy. Well said guys.

I read some stats from Todd that said the average race car is a 10 year old model year. Then why are we so quick to modify the rules to include the current year cars? Bulletins came out mid year in 2010 to allow the latest that Ford Racing was putting out. Really, we need to be that cutting edge? Or we needed to make changes so a few pro guys can come run with us without having to make any changes....Tail wagging the dog.

I keep reading how the new cars come with so much more HP, bigger brakes, wheels, ABS, ......, but guys are some how building these cars into legal CMC2 cars, but AI needs to make adjustments, or they won't come play. Then go AIX.

I've been saying it for about 3 years that ABS should have been eleminated back then, when Ford Racing started putting the race systems on street cars.

The whole "Tiregate" is because 18" wheels were made legal a few years ago. Didnt make sense then and makes even less sense now. Instead of changing the rules to allow 18" wheels, racers could have bought more expensive 17" wheels one time and then have far less expensive 17" tires for the next ??? years, or they could design a 13" kit, or work with a supplier to design a 13" kit.

A spec tire is just that, one tire. Now some have Toyos some have Hoosiers, some have 17" some have 18".....what a mess. And this was a mess early this year well before the hurricane in Japan. This was set on a crash course a couple years ago. Same with the ABS, becasue Ford, GM, Dodge or maybe Edsel is going to put an even better system on a street car, and so goes the unncessary escalation.

Personally, I'm ok with a modest HP increase, as long as it's determined a couple years ahead of time. The rest is just unnecessary jumping threw hoops, and the hoops will just get bigger.

Pro guys who want to come play in AI, come on in the water is warm, but when you bend too much to make accomadations , you get out of shape (think about It.....) . These guys have the resourses to make changes, not the other way around.

If allowing old pro series cars into the class is the goal, then really if your spending $30k plus on a used race car, then surely (quit calling me Shirely) you can swapp a couple illegal parts if you want to go AI racing......again, instead the tail is wagging the dog.

[sundialracing]

My .02

 

I am not a pro driver and never will be....

 

I came to play in American Iron for one reason, because I could race a 2011 Mustang here. I have no desire or ability to "develop" a race car, that's why the "race car in a box" works for me. The only thing that I did not like about AI is the Toyo's, so for right now I'm pretty happy....

 

Is it the all of the Ford Racing stuff that has some of us upset or is it the level of talent that is driving them(me excluded)?

[D Algozine]

My .02

 

I am not a pro driver and never will be....

 

I came to play in American Iron for one reason, because I could race a 2011 Mustang here. I have no desire or ability to "develop" a race car, that's why the "race car in a box" works for me. The only thing that I did not like about AI is the Toyo's, so for right now I'm pretty happy....

 

Is it the all of the Ford Racing stuff that has some of us upset or is it the level of talent that is driving them(me excluded)?

 

Interesting.

What makes you think the level of talent is any better in any other series vs the top guys in AI? (not getting shi$$y, just asking)

I've certainly seen some very talented drivers from other series who have raced in AI. But its nearly impossible to make an apples to apples comparison. I say come race in AI with the same rules that we have been racing under for several years. With your question about the higher talent level being the issue, then certainly pro guys should have the resourses and the skills to hang with the top AI with the same rule set as the rest of the racers. Why should any rules be altered for any ONE. Rule changes are about maintaining and growing the series. Certainly change is necessary, but too much, too fast for one particular platform is of no benifit to the series, only the select few.

[nape]

Is it the all of the Ford Racing stuff that has some of us upset or is it the level of talent that is driving them(me excluded)?

 

Bring on the level of talent, it makes for a hell of a race.

 

I don't fault people that have/make more for the fact that they can buy the latest and greatest, but it sure is frustrating to get beat by something that I can't build (ABS). A race car is just 4 wheels and a bunch of tubes and sheet metal. There isn't anything that makes one platform inherently better except for items that take the driver out of it (ABS, traction control, etc).

 

I'll drive with anyone out there, but until I grow a couple more legs and throw in an individual pedal for each wheel, there's no way I can fabricate a way to replace ABS. If I had a Bridgeport and a lathe at my disposal, you can be damn sure I'd figure out a way to put it on. Until then, it's an exercise in figuring out how to make the car better in other areas so I can get away with out... or until it rains.

 

In the end, it all runs into money. This will be my 5th season in AI and have seen other competitors come and go and some come and stay. The biggest factor is that most people don't realize how much it will cost to run year after year. Building a car is one thing, maintaining it through the season and beyond that is totally different. I do just about everything on the cheap so I can afford to replace/rebuild it WHEN it breaks, not if. Spending money on all this stuff sounds great ($7000 crate engines, $4000 brake kits, $5000 transmissions, etc), until you need a backup this or to replace that.

 

To each his own, but I can damn near build another car for that price, so no thanks.

[svttim]

My .02

 

I am not a pro driver and never will be....

 

I came to play in American Iron for one reason, because I could race a 2011 Mustang here. I have no desire or ability to "develop" a race car, that's why the "race car in a box" works for me. The only thing that I did not like about AI is the Toyo's, so for right now I'm pretty happy....

 

Is it the all of the Ford Racing stuff that has some of us upset or is it the level of talent that is driving them(me excluded)?

 

Interesting.

What makes you think the level of talent is any better in any other series vs the top guys in AI? (not getting shi$$y, just asking)

I've certainly seen some very talented drivers from other series who have raced in AI. But its nearly impossible to make an apples to apples comparison. I say come race in AI with the same rules that we have been racing under for several years. With your question about the higher talent level being the issue, then certainly pro guys should have the resourses and the skills to hang with the top AI with the same rule set as the rest of the racers. Why should any rules be altered for any ONE. Rule changes are about maintaining and growing the series. Certainly change is necessary, but too much, too fast for one particular platform is of no benifit to the series, only the select few.

 

 

The guys in AI said it at the last event I was at. I cant disagree more. I want to run AI because of the level of talent and professionalism.

 

I may agree with the comment on the speed of change but, once done, its very hard to undo.

 

To those that say go run AIX, I say, go Run CMC. I had a car built for AI using AI rules. The argument goes both ways fellers.

[Tommy55]

My .02

 

I am not a pro driver and never will be....

 

I came to play in American Iron for one reason, because I could race a 2011 Mustang here. I have no desire or ability to "develop" a race car, that's why the "race car in a box" works for me. The only thing that I did not like about AI is the Toyo's, so for right now I'm pretty happy....

 

Is it the all of the Ford Racing stuff that has some of us upset or is it the level of talent that is driving them(me excluded)?

 

Yea that's it. Spare me. Apples to apples

Bring on the level of talent, it makes for a hell of a race.

 

I don't fault people that have/make more for the fact that they can buy the latest and greatest, but it sure is frustrating to get beat by something that I can't build (ABS). A race car is just 4 wheels and a bunch of tubes and sheet metal. There isn't anything that makes one platform inherently better except for items that take the driver out of it (ABS, traction control, etc).

 

I'll drive with anyone out there, but until I grow a couple more legs and throw in an individual pedal for each wheel, there's no way I can fabricate a way to replace ABS. If I had a Bridgeport and a lathe at my disposal, you can be damn sure I'd figure out a way to put it on. Until then, it's an exercise in figuring out how to make the car better in other areas so I can get away with out... or until it rains.

 

In the end, it all runs into money. This will be my 5th season in AI and have seen other competitors come and go and some come and stay. The biggest factor is that most people don't realize how much it will cost to run year after year. Building a car is one thing, maintaining it through the season and beyond that is totally different. I do just about everything on the cheap so I can afford to replace/rebuild it WHEN it breaks, not if. Spending money on all this stuff sounds great ($7000 crate engines, $4000 brake kits, $5000 transmissions, etc), until you need a backup this or to replace that.

 

To each his own, but I can damn near build another car for that price, so no thanks.

 

I couldn't agree anymore

My .02

 

I am not a pro driver and never will be....

 

I came to play in American Iron for one reason, because I could race a 2011 Mustang here. I have no desire or ability to "develop" a race car, that's why the "race car in a box" works for me. The only thing that I did not like about AI is the Toyo's, so for right now I'm pretty happy....

 

Is it the all of the Ford Racing stuff that has some of us upset or is it the level of talent that is driving them(me excluded)?

 

Interesting.

What makes you think the level of talent is any better in any other series vs the top guys in AI? (not getting shi$$y, just asking)

I've certainly seen some very talented drivers from other series who have raced in AI. But its nearly impossible to make an apples to apples comparison. I say come race in AI with the same rules that we have been racing under for several years. With your question about the higher talent level being the issue, then certainly pro guys should have the resourses and the skills to hang with the top AI with the same rule set as the rest of the racers. Why should any rules be altered for any ONE. Rule changes are about maintaining and growing the series. Certainly change is necessary, but too much, too fast for one particular platform is of no benifit to the series, only the select few.

 

 

The guys in AI said it at the last event I was at. I cant disagree more. I want to run AI because of the level of talent and professionalism.

 

I may agree with the comment on the speed of change but, once done, its very hard to undo.

 

To those that say go run AIX, I say, go Run CMC. I had a car built for AI using AI rules. The argument goes both ways fellers.

 

Well we started racing AI 3,4,5,even 6 years ago or more. We built our cars to the rule set for then and we were ALL com petitve. That is the argument. We are losing way more cars than we are gaining. What's the point

[Tommy55]

I guess we just wait and see what happens. The powers to be know what really needs to be done, it's just a matter of doing it.

[svttim]

It would make sense to try to find the real reason all those people that started 2 3 4 years ago are no longer racing. The economy may have a little bit to do with the lack of car count. Apply the wrong fix, it will do the oposite of whats intended.

[nape]

It would make sense to try to find the real reason all those people that started 2 3 4 years ago are no longer racing. The economy may have a little bit to do with the lack of car count. Apply the wrong fix, it will do the oposite of whats intended.

 

In Midwest, we had a couple on the sidelines due to the economy/bad luck, but they are back or coming back (Post & Algozine). A couple are gone are due to the time commitment/kids being more important (Luna & Erickson), and a few left AI to move down to CMC because they saw the writing on the wall. Couldn't/didn't want to afford the time/money of constantly searching for performance (Denton, Franklin, White).

 

Tommy knows why in his region. I'll let him lay it out.

[tacovini]

Tommy knows why in his region. I'll let him lay it out.

 

If Tommy knows why AI is officially dead in his region, I would like to know why too. I think the economy has a larger bit to do with the lack of car count than we are letting on. From what I've seen, Tommy historically rolled in with a double stacker Renegade trailer (gasp!)....Rolled his professionally built ex-Motorola Cup car (OMG!) onto grid...and captured all but 1 track record over the years. He is a multi-year regional champion and typically spanked a predominantly populated F-body region (that to this day does not have any regular S197 Mustangs competing.) Just recently, a few ex-Mustang Challenge cars (which BTW were acquired in today's dollars at the same relative cost as Tommy's Motorola Cup car years ago) competed in RM...and true to form...Tommy has made minced meat out of them and their ABS systems (say it isn't so). There are many AI racers in RM who would love to rise to the occasion, and challenge Tommy and his regional AI throne...but unfortunately it is not in the cards.

 

I'm not picking on Tommy...just giving perspective.

 

More perspective is that the rules have largely not changed over many, many years.

 

ABS has always been legal since Day 1...the bar has just been raised with better technology. FYI...ABS became an issue in 2005 when the Country found out that all the Texas guys had retrofitted their Fox bodies and SN95 cars to "modern" ABS. That's when the screams for "no ABS" began. As a CMC racer, I agreed with the screams and felt/feel ABS is a driver's crutch...but the spirit of AI has always been to engineer/retrofit/make stuff work better. ABS has only now become a bigger "problem" since the Ford's newest FR500 ABS is apparently far superior, according to folklore. (We have minimal comparative data to support that, but as JWL posted, we will gather more data this summer to prove/disprove this claim. Sorry...videos of getting passed in a braking zone don't qualify.)

 

Reading this thread, many will have you believe that simply bolting the FR500 ABS unit onto your car will automatically rocket you to the front of the pack, "do not pass go", collect your prize monies and trophies at the door...and yet, FR500 cars still manage to finish mid-pack in non-podium spots and the likes of TJ Bain, Tommy Schlender, Michael Patterson, John Wheeler in F-bodies as well as various Fox body, etc. cars manage to podium and win regional championships (say what?). Different platforms have different advantages. Ever compare the OEM aero of a Fox body to the aero of a 4th gen Firebird?

 

Big Wings have always been legal since Day 1...(anybody remember the Maximum Motorsports Roof wing???) Only recently has technology (and the cost of that technology) raised it's ugly head. We've actually changed rules in recent years to LIMIT the amount of aero, so that things don't get stretched any further.

 

Remember, CMC was founded on factory stock, no mods. AI was founded on the basis of attracting aftermarket and engineering tweakers who have the unlimited ability to engineer/upgrade their cars. The OEM cars have gotten more racey off the showroom floor, and the series mentality is now regressing it's philosophy back to a more stock CMC-Like platform (whether AI racers like it or not)....and that is in direct conflict with CMC....and in conflict with true American Iron purists, who want to take their factory cars and engineer them better. We've got to stick with the 3 stairstep approach....CMC...AI...AIX. The lines between them are still very blurry, but are getting clearer as our long term goals are met. Perhaps it is a natural progression for AI cars to go to CMC, when money is tight and the economy sucks. Hopefully someday, we might see a time when the economy is robust, cash is flowing again and CMC cars are getting upgraded to AI or AIX cars! Money is a motivator.

 

When I came on board as the National Series Director a few years ago (as a CMC veteran), I agreed (and still do) that American Iron needs to be reigned in. Cost containment needs to be a priority. ABS and the modern technology advances new cars bring are a challenge to the series, but one we have to embrace in order to assure new cars continue to come into the series. It appears that many are bitter that the "pro cars" can race with us in American Iron, as well as go to Continental/World Challenge. In today's economy, those cars will quickly make their way into our racer's hands as "used cars". If TJ Bain comes across some extra cash and can score an ex-Grand Am Stevenson Camaro to race in AI...should we not let him because "that was a pro-car"?

 

Remember, with American Iron it is power/weight ratio...and within the ruleset anything else goes...whether the car starts life as a BIW, a grocery getter or another sanctioning body race car. Always has been that way. Today's pro-cars are tomorrow's AI cars...just like Tommy did years ago back when he raced AI.

 

So long story short, we can't simply snap our fingers and make a simple change to make everyone happy. We will continue to assess the ABS issue, and some rules tweaks are not out of the question...but they have to be based on data/science, and not emotion/gut feel.

 

...and whoever said this tire dilemma timing sucks was spot on!!!

 

-=- Todd

[sundialracing]

My .02

 

I am not a pro driver and never will be....

 

I came to play in American Iron for one reason, because I could race a 2011 Mustang here. I have no desire or ability to "develop" a race car, that's why the "race car in a box" works for me. The only thing that I did not like about AI is the Toyo's, so for right now I'm pretty happy....

 

Is it the all of the Ford Racing stuff that has some of us upset or is it the level of talent that is driving them(me excluded)?

 

My question was not loaded, sorry if it offended anybody....

 

We all have just lived thru the worst economic meltdown of our lives(I don't think we have any Great Depression AI guys..) I think the economy has a lot more to do with it than anything else.. I am a recent transplant from the other racing club and it is much worse there, at the current level none of the showroom stock/Touring classes will make the Mendoza line for the Runoffs.

[redsnake08]

i stayed up late typing a full page! And now my post is gone wtf? Tonight the loan ford ai rocky mountain racer will try it again!!

[Tommy55]

Todd,

I know you are not picking on me. I am really glad you chimed in. You proved my point 100% and I thank you for that. It is nice to know that you really see a problem and want to fix it. Let me fine tune a few points you made. Everything you said is true. You know me well and you of all people know what my car really is. It was an ex motorola cup car purchased in 2005 for 7500.00. 10 years old at this time. What 7500.00. It had all interior, a LT1,6 speed,stock brakes, stock suspension except for the 10 year old penske's, and a stock rear end with a posi. 7500.00. I raced it as is the first year removing door panels and window glass and etc. The car was pretty competitive. First year at nationals finished 14th out of 32 cars i think. Not bad. 2nd year. Diet. K-member and control arms (aftermarket) 850.00. Lexan windshield 200.00. Move battery and remove all unnecessary part. Let's call that about 500.00. Installed wilwood 6 piston brake setup. 2,000.00. Won RM Division and finished 5th or 6th Nationals. Now we are getting somewhere. 3rd Year add rear wing. 1200.00. Change LT1 for LS1. 3k. sold LT1 and Trans 1500.00 Won Rm region and finished i think 5th at nationals. DQ'd from 2nd to 9th in qualifying I think. A homemade diffuser was added last year before nationals. Cost 500.00. The car is now over 15b years old and was still pretty competitive. So in total the car has well under 20k in it. Yes the economy was better and I was rolling in the Battlestar Galactica. I had the whole family involved and my son was also racing.

Shane had a baby and quit racing for a while. He will be back I spent my money to make sure the family also enjoyed it. My point is it didn't take much to be competitive and the cars that are readily AVAILABLE for sale inexpensively can be made competitive. You don't have to spend triple the money in a worse economy.

WOULD YOU GUYS JUST PLEASE FIX IT SO I CAN GO RACING IN THE CLASS I BELIEVE IS THE BEST CLASS OUT THERE FOR US GRASS ROOTS RACERS. KEEP IT A DRIVERS CLASS, NOT A CHECKBOOK CLASS.

[robbodleimages]

tommy, did you do all that work yourself? i am guessing you did by the homemade defuser that you mentioned.

 

if yes, are you suggesting that people should build their own cars and engineer and install all their upgrades if they want to race in AI? there are some of us at least that are not mechanics and dont have the skill or space or both. are those people checkbook people?

 

you dont know me. I bought a former IMSA GS/Motorola Cup Mustang Cobra R for a magazine series I was doing. I was a middle of the pack racer in that car and generally content with that. I dont have the time and resources(checkbook) to get anymore seat time or do anymore developement or buy any new parts. Those things that help you go faster.

 

When the magazine viability of that car expired, I sold it. I took that money and basically rolled it over into a new project, a team build FR500C. I have not raced because i am trying to pay down business and racing debt and refit the car a bit. I have to scratch and save and beg, borrow and steal...ok i dont steal...in order to go race.

 

Based on reading what I read here when you see my car in the paddock you are thinking I am a checkbook racer trying to make AI a checkbook class which would be as wrong as you can get. One racer friend to another, dont paint with such a broad brush. Also you can get the rules package that you want and then easily get spent under the table by those racers who do have the checkbook.

 

end of rant.

Edited May 13, 2011 by Guest

[kbrew8991]

Legislating cost into a ruleset is at best very difficult to get even minor results from. See also: Spec Miata and the money they'll spend to get 1 extra whp legally.

 

You can write rules such that the cost can go way up however.

 

Its a tough job, I don't envy the people that have to do it...

[Tommy55]

You are missing my point. I am not a fabricator. Actually far from it. The point is you can take a piece of a trailer roof and make a splitter out of it in the garage and it kinda works. It is a HP to Weight ratio. We can't spend oogods amounts of money chasing that HP. Just fix a few loopholes in the class and thats it. New cars, old cars, whatever. We can all run and be pretty competitive. I am done trying to explain it.

[robbodleimages]

part of what makes AI AI is that while you cant spend eegads of money chasing hp, you can spend that and more chasing ways to get the car to use the hp better and make the car stop and turn better.

 

so of our race tracks are very hp dependent but many are not. there's a lot more about going faster that money feeds than horsepower. i mean....you could care less about my hp. its my brakes that you dont want me to have.

[D Algozine]

I'm sorry, but I really don't get it. (This started as a short response, but then it all just rolled out, AGAIN)

So, AI's plan was to make modifications to the current rule set that will allow current or late model pro series race cars to be legal, because some time in the future, those cars will be used; therefore, should be easily bought and run in AI. Anyone want to buy a bridge ?? That bulletin 2 weeks before Nationals pretty much tells the story. If your plan is to buy a used pro series car, then most of them will be used up, and likely need some serious drivetrain rebuilds anyway.

Despite my tone, I get. It's about car counts. But, quick fixes that aren't well thought out, can blow up, and oddly enough, they have blown up. Same scenrio with the race ABS a couple years ago. If it wasn't made legal back then Challenge cars and Grand Am cars couldn't run in AI. Likely the same for the 18" wheel. Warning: Broken record- Too many changes to benifit one single platform. Oddly enough, it is argueably the best starting point for an AI platform to begin with, and therefore, doesn't really need any special rule tweaks to be highly competitive.

I bought an Ex Bondurant car, Tommy bought an ex World Challenge car, Chris DeSalvo (sp) bought an ex Grand am SN95 and the list goes on and on. Some guys started with a BIW, some a street car, some an HPDE car. And we all put our cars on the lift and cut out the illegal or unecesary stuff and bought or fabricated AI legal competitve stuff. Why does that need to change now? Guys who have the means are encouraged to run AI and any other series they desire, but is it really necessary or fair to rest of the masses for modifications to be made especially for that group? I know there are some guys who bought some of these cars with the sole intention of racing AI, which makes great sense. But they could have just as easily made a few parts adjustments like we all did to be legal, and non of this stuff would be going on.

Also, not really buying the statements that race ABS may not be much value. That's kind of a silly and vague statement. Again, it doesn't make you a super hero, but it can make a good driver better then those who dont have it. Im fairly cetain the data will prove it.

I'm pretty sure that if it was just 18" wheels, it would make sense, but it has kept going. Ford Racing is not an auto manufacturer. They develop and sell race parts and race cars. However, they are owned by one of the largest auto companies in the world. They should not be the bench mark for AI specs. The bench mark used to be the racer/mechanic, or even a small to midsize niche aftermarket parts supplier.

If cost cutting is the goal, I think its going the wrong way.

[Red Tornado]

Well let me dispell a few rumors etc.. from my perspective that I have seen.

 

-The talent consistently in AI is some of the best in all of racing. So far in a few world challenge races I can generally say it feels about the same. Just folks with bigger pockets and sponsors to buy there parts and tires. Oh andand be grateful we have no idea about hell until after every race there are rule changes.

 

- Technology is not always beter and newer cars don't always win. Vs. my older car on traqmate and racekeeper data the old car clearly had better rear grip and similar g's on same courses. Newer car has much better turn-in and better brake distances by about 20 feet. Cars weighed within 100lbs but weight distribution difference is substantial. My old car had plastic flexible cobra r front splitter and rear wing vs. expensive new fab stuff. Times at CMP with hoosiers were within 1 second. never compared with toyo's.

 

- New Ford ABS is not some end all be all. It's darn good but on street courses like st pete it locked up a bunch. I have overall improved braking distances but is that due to much bigger front and rear brakes than before..probably most of it. No testing in rain yet. Also what no on mentions is the horrible brake pedal feel of the new cars. For those of us used to trail braking and a rock hard pedal the new sponge pedal takes a long time to get used to. Trust me talk to anyone who has a new one vs there old one and they will all say feels weird.

 

- Never Mentioned. Being first with technology can actually stink. At St Pete we all discovered boss motor's need a oil breather setup the hard way. My electric steering has bizarre issues no one has figured out yet. They vibrate like an out of balance tire for almost all of us once hot and mine actually goes on and off manual mid turn after 35 minutes like clockwork. Goodnews is in a few years all the bugs will be worked out. Everyone wins by having the newer cars getting figured out eventually.

 

This is my way of saying having done alot of different things now that the grass is not always greener. Racing always costs money but having a near spec series limits it.

 

AI is still one of the best series I have ever run and continue to run due to competition on track and fun we have off, stable rules, and fairly low season costs for a high HP series.

[sundialracing]

Well let me dispell a few rumors etc.. from my perspective that I have seen.

 

-The talent consistently in AI is some of the best in all of racing. So far in a few world challenge races I can generally say it feels about the same. Just folks with bigger pockets and sponsors to buy there parts and tires. Oh andand be grateful we have no idea about hell until after every race there are rule changes.

 

- Technology is not always beter and newer cars don't always win. Vs. my older car on traqmate and racekeeper data the old car clearly had better rear grip and similar g's on same courses. Newer car has much better turn-in and better brake distances by about 20 feet. Cars weighed within 100lbs but weight distribution difference is substantial. My old car had plastic flexible cobra r front splitter and rear wing vs. expensive new fab stuff. Times at CMP with hoosiers were within 1 second. never compared with toyo's.

 

- New Ford ABS is not some end all be all. It's darn good but on street courses like st pete it locked up a bunch. I have overall improved braking distances but is that due to much bigger front and rear brakes than before..probably most of it. No testing in rain yet. Also what no on mentions is the horrible brake pedal feel of the new cars. For those of us used to trail braking and a rock hard pedal the new sponge pedal takes a long time to get used to. Trust me talk to anyone who has a new one vs there old one and they will all say feels weird.

 

- Never Mentioned. Being first with technology can actually stink. At St Pete we all discovered boss motor's need a oil breather setup the hard way. My electric steering has bizarre issues no one has figured out yet. They vibrate like an out of balance tire for almost all of us once hot and mine actually goes on and off manual mid turn after 35 minutes like clockwork. Goodnews is in a few years all the bugs will be worked out. Everyone wins by having the newer cars getting figured out eventually.

 

This is my way of saying having done alot of different things now that the grass is not always greener. Racing always costs money but having a near spec series limits it.

 

AI is still one of the best series I have ever run and continue to run due to competition on track and fun we have off, stable rules, and fairly low season costs for a high HP series.

 

My end all be all Ford Racing ABS did not save me when I stuffed my car in the tire wall at Mid-Ohio in the rain...

[mustcone347]

i stayed up late typing a full page! And now my post is gone wtf? Tonight the loan ford ai rocky mountain racer will try it again!!

 

 

I will ditto that remark..............this is a forum for discussion not for censorship as I also posted on this only to have the post deleted. I really do not understand why opinions cannot be voiced honestly without being deleted.

 

 

 

My .02

 

I am not a pro driver and never will be....

 

I came to play in American Iron for one reason, because I could race a 2011 Mustang here. I have no desire or ability to "develop" a race car, that's why the "race car in a box" works for me. The only thing that I did not like about AI is the Toyo's, so for right now I'm pretty happy....

 

Is it the all of the Ford Racing stuff that has some of us upset or is it the level of talent that is driving them(me excluded)?

 

My question was not loaded, sorry if it offended anybody....

 

We all have just lived thru the worst economic meltdown of our lives(I don't think we have any Great Depression AI guys..) I think the economy has a lot more to do with it than anything else.. I am a recent transplant from the other racing club and it is much worse there, at the current level none of the showroom stock/Touring classes will make the Mendoza line for the Runoffs.

 

Spoken like a true poster boy of the "New AI".................. should read like "sorry if my money has offended you, but I just came here to race a brand new car, oh and BTW just because I crashed it at mid Ohio doesnt mean I will not be back with another new ride next month." I am sorry to say this is not the meat and potatos of AI. This might be what the organizers want but is far from reality.

 

Heres a challenge, take a comprehensive pole on how much every AI guy has in his or her car(approximate of course), divide by the total number of drivers poled and start a "claimer class" based on the average value...................that combined with Power to Weight would create true parity in the AI field.

[robbodleimages]

ah...so, you are saying bring a nice car and give it away?

 

question: if i pay somebody to install my engine because i dont have those skills or equipment while another guy can do it himself, does the guy doing his own work have to claim the street value of the work?

 

if i sell a sponsorship for my car that brings me parts and labor at no cash charge, do i have to claim the retail value of that?

 

are we back to requiring that you build your own car to be a real AI participant?