TurboShortBus Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 Holy crap, I had no idea how close that Mini was to hitting the inside wall. He's very fortunate that it suddenly hooked back to the right; otherwise, it would have ended in the wall on the left, like so many other cars have done. With this video, at least the timing of your pass seems fine in relation to the braking zone (for some people, there is no braking zone for turn 10) and turn-in point, although with all of the complaining about the construction barrier blocking everybody's view of the corner entry, I still don't see the reason for cutting anything close during that weekend (especially considering that this was the 3rd session on Saturday). I'm not saying that you did or didn't; I'm just saying that there was no point in rolling the dice with a close call, no matter who was driving. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drivinhardz06 Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 from the grand stands: my first reaction to the miata in car video was the EVO seemed to get on the brakes really hard when he saw the spin. The EVO video shows (IMHO) that he cleared the miata way before the entry to the corner (never ran that track but seemed totally fine for me) and that he simply lifted off the gas (maybe brushed the brakes, which is good, to show lights) and didn't get on the brakes hard in a panic. You can hear the fairly slow wind down of the motor for proof. put the mini at fault for throwing it off, EVO did nothing wrong, miata wrong place at wrong time. my take anyway. my opinion is HPDE and TT have no business together but that's just me. if nothing else to learn folks, ROLL VIDEO. there is no better objective evidence looking back at an incident, and it shows you the importance of varying/multiple angles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 my opinion is HPDE and TT have no business together but that's just me. I agree with this - its something I'll battle with the event directors very hard over Easiest way to make sure you get TT only sessions is to grow the group big enough that no other classes can fit in though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varkwso Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 Video is highly recommended. Mixing DE and TT is never a great idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obzezzed350 Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 The thing with Florida is that our HPDE4 group is pretty small, as most step up to TT once they get out of HPDE3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 We typically have about 4 or 5 TT drivers to every HPDE-4 driver, which means an HPDE-4 field in the neighborhood of 3 to 6 drivers, which isn't enough to warrant their own session. I try to push the HPDE-4 drivers to step up into TT, and use HPDE-4 as a 2-day evaluation period before approving TT participation, so there are some benefits to having both groups on track at the same time. And, if HPDE-4 gets its own session without extending the day by 4x25 minutes, then all other groups will have shorter sessions. Note that I prefer to have TT-specific sessions without HPDE-4 drivers and without passengers, but I understand the scheduling issues. From what I have been told, the HPDE-4 driver in the Mini has about 30 years of experience with SCCA, IMSA, etc. on various tracks, but no experience at this particular track. If he was already a TT or NASA race-licensed driver who had no experience on this track, then the results would have been no different. Hell, I could have done the same thing when I went up to Road Atlanta 2 years ago and entered TT without turning a single lap there. But, as a precaution, I signed up (and paid) for 2 HPDE sessions on the Friday afternoon before that event, and took a couple of different instructors with me (Varkwso and his son) to help me get around the track, which definitely helped me turn decent times and keep the car clean. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
32EVOIX Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 Holy crap, I had no idea how close that Mini was to hitting the inside wall. He's very fortunate that it suddenly hooked back to the right; otherwise, it would have ended in the wall on the left, like so many other cars have done. With this video, at least the timing of your pass seems fine in relation to the braking zone (for some people, there is no braking zone for turn 10) and turn-in point, although with all of the complaining about the construction barrier blocking everybody's view of the corner entry, I still don't see the reason for cutting anything close during that weekend (especially considering that this was the 3rd session on Saturday). I'm not saying that you did or didn't; I'm just saying that there was no point in rolling the dice with a close call, no matter who was driving. Mark Understood, but keep in mind also, that I am off line, I have to slowdown much more than usual where Rene is coming down hot on proper line, which is all fine because where I lift I would normally be back on the gas hard and clear out of Rene’s way. By the way a very astute observation in one of the other posts, I lifted in fact I just tapped the brakes with my left foot to let Rene know what was going on, just slowing down enough to figure out where the Mini is going to end up, but from Rene’s view point it seemed like I got on the brakes hard because of the speed differential between the two lines and me lifting. At the end of the day, what really sucks is that two of my friends where involved, Rene and Vic’s car is damaged. I understand the obstacles that we are faced here in Florida running HPDE 4 with TT but at least we need to give new guys check rides and I don’t really care what credentials they carry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperkins Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 We typically have about 4 or 5 TT drivers to every HPDE-4 driver, which means an HPDE-4 field in the neighborhood of 3 to 6 drivers, which isn't enough to warrant their own session. Where are the HPDE drivers placed on grid? Does that group do a double yellow pace lap? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 Where are the HPDE drivers placed on grid? Does that group do a double yellow pace lap? Since I'm not driving this season, I grid all TT and HPDE-4 cars personally. TT cars are gridded based on their best times from their previous session, while the HPDE-4 cars are held at the back regardless of their times/speeds/abilities. The track is typically green when the session starts, although some corner workers still manage to display yellows (although it doesn't matter much for the warm-up lap, as all drivers are told to hold their grid positions). First, the TT cars are sent out on track, and the lead car holds his speed to about 45-50 mph (while all other drivers hold their positions in a single-file line) until a predetermined location about halfway through the lap, when he accelerates to normal speed (this is how I remember doing it as a TT driver at Road Atlanta a couple of years ago, although I don't remember much about their HPDE-4 drivers). Once all TT cars cross the start/finish line to start their first flying lap, the HPDE-4 cars are released and blend in behind the TT cars. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 SE has had TT only sessions for quite a while (back when I ran things, heh). DE4 either gets lumped in with DE3, or gets its own session. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 DE4 either gets lumped in with DE3 Were the passing rules different up there? Down here, HPDE-3 can pass on straights only (and without a point-by), while HPDE-4 is open passing (same as TT). How would you combine (and enforce) these different passing rules in the same session? Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tut Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 DE4 either gets lumped in with DE3 Were the passing rules different up there? Down here, HPDE-3 can pass on straights only (and without a point-by), while HPDE-4 is open passing (same as TT). How would you combine (and enforce) these different passing rules in the same session? Mark In a combined DE3/4 session the DE4 drivers have to go by the DE3 rules so they should be waiting for point byes. The other factor though is that in DE3 sessions you are allowed to pass cars without a point bye if they have a yellow DE4 decal on the back of the car. So in a DE3/4 session unless the car has a yellow 4 on the back you better be waiting for a point bye. This occasionally does not apply to yellow Ferrari Challenge race cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 In a combined DE3/4 session the DE4 drivers have to go by the DE3 rules so they should be waiting for point byes. So, the only true "open passing" HPDE class up there is TT? Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 As it should be - I don't get the point of open passing if it really is HPDE enviornment. DE3/4 pass anywhere with a point-by is "racey" enough... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbow Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 In a combined DE3/4 session the DE4 drivers have to go by the DE3 rules so they should be waiting for point byes. So, the only true "open passing" HPDE class up there is TT? Mark Nope, DE4 and TT. Depends on the number of DE4 and DE3 drivers and the schedule. IIRC when we went to CMP the last time DE4 had one or two sessions a day all by themselves. Looks like the same is going to happen at Charlotte. I haven't looked at the Road Atl schedule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varkwso Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 J In a combined DE3/4 session the DE4 drivers have to go by the DE3 rules so they should be waiting for point byes. So, the only true "open passing" HPDE class up there is TT? Mark Except for yellow 4 cars that is correct. DE 4 sometimes still gets there own session. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 DE4 either gets lumped in with DE3 In a combined DE3/4 session the DE4 drivers have to go by the DE3 rules so they should be waiting for point byes. Nope, DE4 and TT. Depends on the number of DE4 and DE3 drivers and the schedule. IIRC when we went to CMP the last time DE4 had one or two sessions a day all by themselves. OK, so combining HPDE-3 with HPDE-4 up there doesn't happen all the time, and varies by the event. IMO, it all boils down to an HPDE-4 driver who reportedly has lots of experience, just not at this particular track, and caused this incident to unfold. But, with that being said, the same thing could happen to any TT driver who visits another track for the first time, or shows up at Mid-O for the first time in September for the Championships. This likely falls under "one of them racing deals." Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obzezzed350 Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 I dont think its fair to blame the Mini...we have all made mistakes, its a part of the sport. It all boils down to wrong place at the wrong time. Its not the like the guy spun coming out of Turn 14, he lost it in the most challenging turn of the track, and if anything he did a great job at recovering where most put it in the inside tires. Jimmy, you are going to Nats this year on a track you haven't been on in 3 years. Should someone have to give you a check ride to allow you to compete? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
32EVOIX Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 Jimmy, you are going to Nats this year on a track you haven't been on in 3 years. Should someone have to give you a check ride to allow you to compete? Extremely valid question, to be honest I would not object to that, but keep in mind this is not a fair example, as there are no HPDE cars on the track at the same time. Furthermore, the monitoring and scrutinizing at the Nationals is far superior to the local level. Here is the problem, through the years we have had a multitude of drivers come with FIA license, Skip Barber schooling or other schooling, and many other license and credentials that have been nothing but a problem. I remember the lotus hitting the inside wall coming out of 7 on the warm up lap, the FIA guy with the BMW etc. We need to know the drivers period that are on the track with us, we all have families and are not doing this on a professional level, so the risks need to be minimized as much as possible. I understand that there are obstacles to overcome but I am sure we can do better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 but keep in mind this is not a fair example, as there are no HPDE cars on the track at the same time. Actually, this is a fair example. Per my conversation with the Mini driver (and as I previously stated), he has nearly 30 years of experience driving with SCCA and IMSA, just not at this track. So, if that is accurate, then he has more experience than most TT drivers down here; and, based on this experience, it likely made sense to put him in HPDE-4. However, the worst turn on the (strange to him) track tried to bite him, and while he was initially headed for the inside wall (as they all do), he was fortunate and/or skilled enough to snap it back to the right and put it in the open field, saving the car from hitting the inside wall. Additionally, had the Mini driver been a regular TT participant in another region, and was visiting Homestead for the first time, then the outcome would have been the same and there would be no HPDE-4 vs TT debate. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spericas Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 but keep in mind this is not a fair example, as there are no HPDE cars on the track at the same time. Actually, this is a fair example. Per my conversation with the Mini driver (and as I previously stated), he has nearly 30 years of experience driving with SCCA and IMSA, just not at this track. So, if that is accurate, then he has more experience than most TT drivers down here; and, based on this experience, it likely made sense to put him in HPDE-4. However, the worst turn on the (strange to him) track tried to bite him, and while he was initially headed for the inside wall (as they all do), he was fortunate and/or skilled enough to snap it back to the right and put it in the open field, saving the car from hitting the inside wall. I agree, I don't think it makes sense to blame Mini driver (Al) for what happened. As others have stated, turn 10 is very dangerous, likely the worst turn in South Florida. Moreover, taking this turn late, as you normally would take a turn that you're still learning, is actually worse due to the resulting compression on the suspension. I think this is the third Mini I've seen having an incident on that turn, with the other two visiting the inside wall. There could be something about that car (wheelbase?) and turn 10 that makes it worse. If anything, I'd say Al had the skill not to hit the wall. -- Santiago Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozal92 Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 Drivers at ALL levels from beginner HPDE to TT'er to club/pro racers have hit turn 10. It is the turn that probably takes out the most cars in florida. I call it a racing incident. No blame put on one single car. Higly unfortunate, but that's the chance we take. Mark, I know I'm preaching to the choir but we could use more people in TT down here. Anybody from the other regions have any suggestions on how to increase TT car counts? -Albert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l30thelion Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 Mark, I know I'm preaching to the choir but we could use more people in TT down here. Anybody from the other regions have any suggestions on how to increase TT car counts? Since the moment I was aware that NASA offered a chance to compete in a TT format I did everything I could to move up the HPDE levels as quickly as possible so I could participate in TT. So it's hard for me to understand why so many people stay in H3 or simply run H4 and not take part in TT. (No offense to anyone, I know everyone has different reasons for being out on track, this is just my opinion). Reasons why everyone should want to participate in TT: 1. The contingency payouts are INSANE and getting better all the time (you could argue that a transponder will pay for itself after winning just 1 Hoosier). 2. The car classification method is great/flexible and part of the fun of "building" a car to compete. 3. You get a chance to compete with drivers that have won National TT Championships. 4. If you do well you get to stand on the podium for awards/bragging rights on Saturday and maybe even win the regional championship (this is all just for fun and winning is REALLY fun). 5. Track Records. 6. Even thought this thread is about a very unfortunate incident, I still feel safer running with the TT group than any other. The only problem with running TT is that once you do, running non-TT/HPDE events will no longer be fun and you will always be thinking, "I wish I was competing in TT instead of just wasting my tires/brakes/etc in HPDE" (unless you're practicing so that you can do better next time you compete in TT..then its ok). I bet the W2W racers say that about us TT guys. I rave about TT with everyone I talk to at track and autox events (yes I still enjoy autox a lot) and the response is usually that based on their mods they wouldn't be competitive, which in most cases just isn't true. I do hope the TT car counts go up, I just don't know what other incentives are needed to get people out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlfpkrcn1 Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 The only problem with running TT is that once you do, running non-TT/HPDE events will no longer be fun and you will always be thinking, "I wish I was competing in TT instead of just wasting my tires/brakes/etc in HPDE" (unless you're practicing so that you can do better next time you compete in TT..then its ok). I bet the W2W racers say that about us TT guys. Turning a fast lap in qualy is a rush, but not even close to the intensity or adrenaline of W2W. The first few laps are incredibly intense. Can't go wrong either way. Keep having fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 bah, only racers that can't TT well say racing is more fun They're equally fun, just different. Putting together a perfect lap when the conditions are their best and the car is at its best isn't easy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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