ST3 / TT3 - Is it working?

[hakeem]

4 STR3 and 3 ST3 cars at Buttonwillow this past weekend.

[ILIKETODRIVE]

Soooo it could have been 7 ST3 cars which would have done wonders for contingency...

[jason]

Soooo it could have been 7 ST3 cars which would have done wonders for contingency...

But everybody gets a trophy.

[brkntrxn]

Soooo it could have been 7 ST3 cars which would have done wonders for contingency...

But everybody gets a trophy.

 

It's the liberal method of racing!!!

 

New ST slogan: "No racer left behind!"

 

Personally, I like the split. It guarantees me more coffee cups for my office.

[kbrew8991]

Soooo it could have been 7 ST3 cars which would have done wonders for contingency...

But everybody gets a trophy.

well one guy doesn't - be fair

[Cobra4B]

Soooo it could have been 7 ST3 cars which would have done wonders for contingency...

But everybody gets a trophy.

 

It's the liberal method of racing!!!

 

New ST slogan: "No racer left behind!"

 

Personally, I like the split. It guarantees me more coffee cups for my office.

Good idea! I'll bring in all my plaques and put them up in my cube

[ILIKETODRIVE]

Soooo it could have been 7 ST3 cars which would have done wonders for contingency...

But everybody gets a trophy.

[Foosh442]

There were 3 ST3 and 4 ST2 cars this past Sat. in the Northeast and 2 ST3, 3 ST2 for Sun.. We all just decided to run together both days in ST2, so a few of us were def. under powered for ST2. It was a good time but the split def. hurt car counts in each class here in the Northeast as I'm sure everyone won't agree to all run in ST2 all year.

[hakeem]

Except it doesn't. You are forcing P/W classes into point systems (GTS1/2->PTB/C/D), rulebook cars into points systems (HC1-5 --->PT)

 

Good luck. Different regions have different classes that are popular. I certainly wouldnt want GTS2 and trying to shove those guys into a PT rulebook (they won't, the GTS guys I know like the unlimited mods), and at healthy 7-12 cars in GTS2 alone EVERY EVENT (29 in GTS altogether this past weekend) while PT altogether had a total of 5-7? Yeah...

 

All of this is solveable with a little more thought, I am just throwing ideas out there as a starting point. Maybe the whole system should be p/w? What definitely doesn't make sense to me is having several classes all running similar lap times, yet not racing against each other.

 

Sure, there would be some initial pain in migrating everyone to their new class, but the end result would be fields with more cars per class. Isn't that what everyone wants?

[Cobra4B]

We are all morons for picking cars with once vibrant classes that are now experiencing low car counts. Clearly we should build e46 BMWs or Miatas

[ILIKETODRIVE]

We are all morons for picking cars with once vibrant classes that are now experiencing low car counts. Clearly we should build e46 BMWs or Miatas

SRSLY

[sfteague]

I'm in a time trials car (E46 M3) that I had planned to run in TT and GTS, but I'm now considering running in ST3/TT3 because the classes may line up better / more easily. It's taking me time and $$$ to get the car built, and like many people I can't do it all in just a couple of months. Evaluating growth of the ST3 class might be a little premature if there are many others like me out there that are working on cars but not ready yet.

[LJ32]

ST3 has brought 2 entry’s to the 2 year old central region, I’m one of them. It allowed the other guy and me to be able to have the open build at reasonable cost, power wise. (something not available in scca and why I chose to go with nasa) I wouldn’t mind running with tube framed cars and AI/CMC/honda challenge. its pointless to me to separate cars by manufacture unless it is a spec class. ST has the perfect filter, using power to weight. No question..

[RockLobster]

Evaluating growth of the ST3 class might be a little premature if there are many others like me out there that are working on cars but not ready yet.

 

QFT, at the amature/hobby level it takes time for people to build cars and for classes to grow. I'm sure even the first year of spec miata was no blockbuster....it should be no surprise 98% of TT3 and ST3 cars are PTA converts...

 

Agreed there are too many classes and some are simply not working.

 

I also don't quite get why we have fully 3 unlimited classes (AIX, GTSU, SU). Further some way of combining STR and and ST (perhaps a P:W adjustment) is the right thing to do.

 

Onto th numerous racist P:W classes..."you mean i cant play with you guys because my car wasn't born in a specific country?" But, if we cant get to a single P:W classing system that absorbs GTS, HC, ST and AI then i guess where i am at working with it is, at a minnimum HC should turn into a Japanese or asian mfgr P:W class ATC (asian touring car). Give us rx-7, kia, subaru, hyundai, toyota etc owners a place to play that doesn't have us sitting in front of spreadsheets for hours on end...if done right it might kill PT, but maybe that's natural selection...

 

I think the spec 944 and CMC classes have their place watching those guys play in MW and GL makes one almost want to join them, but perhaps some form of combining AI and CMC makes sense?

 

Being a tech inspector in NASA can be a real challenge with how many classes there are and how each one is at a fundamental level handled differently in their rule books.

[ScottBell]

TT3 had an pretty good turnout at NOLA in May at the combo Texas, NOLA, Mid-South event. That even has me mentally building a car I think would run in the class.

 

 

The subplot of this thread is what has me hopeful for the future. I think its a failure of all sanctioning bodies to not realize that they probably loose more racers (customers) who's interest just fades out from lack of competition, then they would have people quit if there were some class consolidation. Its a classic "squeaky wheel gets the grease" scenario. I bet the few who would complain loudly about "their" class changing would still be there, along with retaining a LOT more people because the racing was more interesting.

 

The late '60's and early 70's were the heyday of American road racing. The SCCA national championship in 1969 had 20 classes to cover all Formula, Sports racer, and production based classes. How many classes do we have now in NASA? I think the first organization to admit the ridiculousness of the current situation and make a stated goal of having 2 classes with 40 cars each, instead of 40 classes with 2 cars each is going to gain greatly in popularity.

 

I think someone mentioned a concept that could be called "dual classing." I don't know exactly how that would work. However, I think that could be partially applied in the following circumstance. Right now if say 10 racers got together and approached a NASA region about making a class for "their" cars, then I bet it would happen. Then before you know it there is a whole other class in the national rule book. Instead of that how about a policy that goes something like "ok you guys we will keep track of your, say, spec E46 class as a subset of GTSx, give out trophies for individual races in the subclass, but regional championship points go toward the main class. After several years, across multiple regions, if you can show some real participation numbers we will consider adding a new class"

 

Finally, I think someone needs to accept the fact that a LOT of people come and go from this sport. Of those 10 guys that were hot for a new class how many of them will be around in 5 years? I say 2 or 3. How long will that class linger on the rule books?

[ILIKETODRIVE]

It's pointless to me to separate cars by manufacture unless it is a spec class. ST has the perfect filter, using power to weight. No question..

Agreed. Hence why I run TTE/PTE in my Integra at the moment.

[jason]

think the first organization to admit the ridiculousness of the current situation and make a stated goal of having 2 classes with 40 cars each, instead of 40 classes with 2 cars each is going to gain greatly in popularity.

 

This.

[L98Terror]

TT3 was one of the largest TT classes at Nationals & 6 ST3 cars.

 

2009 Utah TTA Cars 4 PTA cars 4

2010 Utah TTA Cars 3 PTA cars 3

2013 Utah TT3 cars 12 ST3 Cars 6

 

I'm guessing it's working if you are going by car count.

 

 

Just saying, not bad for it's first year. We will see what happens when it comes back east, but for now TT3/ST3 has had a better showing than TTA/PTA

[J.R. Smith]

TT3 was one of the largest TT classes at Nationals & 6 ST3 cars.

 

2009 Utah TTA Cars 4 PTA cars 4

2010 Utah TTA Cars 3 PTA cars 3

2013 Utah TT3 cars 12 ST3 Cars 6

 

I'm guessing it's working if you are going by car count.

 

 

Just saying, not bad for it's first year. We will see what happens when it comes back east, but for now TT3/ST3 has had a better showing than TTA/PTA

 

Ken makes a good point. I think NASA made a good decision with non aero/aero ST3 class and the participation will continue to grow.

 

Even though the ST2 field was fairly good sized at Nationals what if the old STR2 cars (mazdas etc) were allowed to compete.

 

The same with STR3 and ST3 and with STR1 and ST1.

 

Let's combine the fields for a bigger car count and therefore larger contingencies, even just a contingency, as some vendors require a 10 car count for prizes. Apply a tube frame modification factor ( a small one ), to encourage participation and just have an ST class (eliminates 3 classes). Everyone keeps mentioning that the tube framed cars would have an unfair advantage, This has not been proven so far. If someone comes along and builds a mega buck car for a specific class, then deal with that situation when it arises. Otherwise, increase car count and have fun racing.

 

I think tube framed competitors will have a tough time beating Ken (ST3) or Bill (ST2) in their full factory framed cars.

 

J.R.

[kbrew8991]

why were 2011 and 2012 numbers omitted?

[Cobra4B]

Let's combine the fields for a bigger car count and therefore larger contingencies, even just a contingency, as some vendors require a 10 car count for prizes. Apply a tube frame modification factor ( a small one ), to encourage participation and just have an ST class (eliminates 3 classes). Everyone keeps mentioning that the tube framed cars would have an unfair advantage, This has not been proven so far. If someone comes along and builds a mega buck car for a specific class, then deal with that situation when it arises. Otherwise, increase car count and have fun racing.

 

I think tube framed competitors will have a tough time beating Ken (ST3) or Bill (ST2) in their full factory framed cars.

 

J.R.

I've been beating this drum for years... Greg & Co. keep saying someone will come along with a class-killer tube chassis car and we'll all cry. Supposedly these ex cup cars should crush us too, but that's not a reality. I keep saying they are addressing a problem that doesn't exist while exacerbating one that does; car counts. They need to ditch the entire STR concept and go back to applying the 0.2 mod factor to tube chassis cars like they used to.

[ILIKETODRIVE]

why were 2011 and 2012 numbers omitted?

Just a guess but he's probably only going off of MMP Nationals numbers. Mid-O has not hosted a Nationals with TT3/2/1 & ST3/2/1.

 

Next year we can compare 06-08 and 11-12 to 14.

[Cobra4B]

VIR's current sign up for next weekend is pretty poor.

 

TT3 - 1

ST3 - 2

 

TT2 - 2

ST2 - 2

 

 

If nats is east of the Mississippi for '14 I'm probably just going to say screw it and run a full season of ST3. If nobody else shows I win!

[toomchpwr]

NASA NE Watkins Glen last week: huge event partly due to big influx of SE guys.

TTU: 6 Saturday, 7 Sunday

TT1: 2 Saturday

TT2: 4 Saturday, 5 Sunday

TT3: 8 Saturday, 5 Sunday

[brkntrxn]

NASA NE Watkins Glen last week: huge event partly due to big influx of SE guys.

TTU: 6 Saturday, 7 Sunday

TT1: 2 Saturday

TT2: 4 Saturday, 5 Sunday

TT3: 8 Saturday, 5 Sunday

 

 

I was the only ST3 car there and had to bump up to ST2 to have some underdog competition.

 

I really do hope some ST3 cars come out and join soon.