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UKRBMW

Is it just me or GTS numbers are dropping?

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John Graber

Get rid of GTS1. Send the 944's and E30's to their respective spec classes, other to PT.

GTSU=>SU

Realign GTS2-5 into 3 classes.

 

That said, car counts come and go. I've seen huge AI classes for a few years and then 2/3 of the cars go away. We had 10+ GTS1 and GTS2 cars at our Mid Ohio events a few years back. Next weekend we have 0 GTS1 cars and 3 GTS2 cars, but we have 9 GTS4 cars where we used to have like 1.

 

East Region is different too with the "strong" classes being different. Yes you can take any car and fit into a race class, but if you want the competition you have to be willing to pack-up and move on occasion. Are their too many classes overall? Probably, but the core principle was to provide an avenue for everyone to race.

 

We could make everyone "dual class" their cars at registration into the primary and secondary (PT or ST). If there are less than 4 cars in your class you will be moved into your secondary class......

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UKRBMW

John - that actually doesn't sound bad. Maybe some consolidation would help.

 

Guys - I think you are barking up the wrong tree. You should be taking it up with Greg. There are some considerable differences - weight factors, subframes, aero, tire, make specific penalties, body modifications, and one of the most important once is lack of torque in the equation. I can't think of many German cars that can have that much torque.

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Michael G.

"ST is a pretty open rule format... there are a couple of mod factors and that's it. Where are you seeing this "every nut and bolt" criticism from? I don't see how ST is holding back any type of creativity at all when compared to GTS."

 

Arca_ex,

 

As Alex noted - even ST is more open than PT - they are "relatives" and very far apart from GTS, if you pay attention to details. Again, my question is why ST and GTS? Why not HC and GTS or Spec Miata and Spec E30? The different classes there for a reason - they cater to different interests. You don't boost the participation by combining classes - you do it by creating a better environment for racers from other groups to join and by growing your own from the grassroots efforts - that what we are trying hard here in our Region.

By the way, why do you need ST and PT? You could simply eliminate ST and have just PT. Or who actually needs AI/AIX - those can easily move to ST/PT to boost numbers.

My point is that you grow the Club by attracting folks to race - there are plenty of Corvettes and Evo's out there racing outside of NASA that can be encouraged to join - the same as we trying to make it attractive to guys from PCA and BMWCCA.

 

Michael G

NE GTS Dir.

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fox4life

 

As Alex noted - even ST is more open than PT - they are "relatives" and very far apart from GTS, if you pay attention to details.

 

Im not trying to sound like an ass here, but saying pt/st are alike just because they are "relatives" sounds like you may not know the difference between them. Those two classes are almost opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to, well..almost everything.

 

ST has a lot of similarities to GTS, PT does not.

 

Again, my question is why ST and GTS? Why not HC and GTS or Spec Miata and Spec E30?

 

The answer is because GTS and ST are very similar classes in terms of power/weight, rule sets and even current lap times. They are essentially the same types of cars, running in two completely separate classes.

 

The reason you wouldn't combine other classes is because they already have great participation numbers by themselves.

 

You don't boost the participation by combining classes - you do it by creating a better environment for racers from other groups to join and by growing your own from the grassroots efforts - that what we are trying hard here in our Region.

 

I agree and disagree with you here. You can boost participation by combining classes. Take zigspeed for example, he isn't participating in next weekends race because there isn't anyone to race against, and im 100% positive hes not the only one. I can almost guarantee that IF there was someone else to race against, he would be there. Having higher car count in one class is more beneficial than to spread those same cars out through 5-6 different classes. Car count=more contingency=incentive to compete= more competitors

 

I do agree that we can attract more competitors by creating a better environment, completely. But I think thats only part of it.

 

By the way, why do you need ST and PT? You could simply eliminate ST and have just PT. Or who actually needs AI/AIX - those can easily move to ST/PT to boost numbers.

 

Again, not trying to sound like a smartass. But saying eliminate st and just have pt makes it seem like you dont know anything about either of them. Most of the cars that run in st CAN'T compete in PT, ever. Not without massive rule changes.

 

You are right about AI/AIX though, they could/should come play in ST as well.(dont think they would be pt legal)

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zigspeed10

There is some good discussion in here but I still haven't heard any good reasons why merging GTS and ST would be a bad idea. It was stated that the core principal of the rules are different but if you actually read the ST rules that statement couldn't be more wrong. Lets break it down.

 

-GTS has classes based on pw/wt, ST does as well.

 

-GTS has a pw/wt penalty for NON-DOT tires, ST does as well but goes one step further and has a few break points for tire width.

 

-GTS has a pw/wt penalty for tube frame cares, ST does as well but clarifies that heavily modifying the frame of a production car puts it into the same category as a tube frame car.

 

-GTS has a pw/wt penalty for seqential transmissions, ST does as well.

 

-GTS allows modificatoin of suspension mounting points, ST does as well.

 

ST has some additoinal limitations such as the factory floor pans need to be retained, active or cockpit adjustable aero is not allowed, etc. They are to prevent "wild" builds such as completely removing the floor and making tunnels which would give a huge aero advantage. I have not seen a GTS car built to the limit of the GTS rules and I'm sure once someone does that new rules will be adopted to prevent such a wild creation. As you can see the rules are very similar and the only modification needed would be to adjust to what ever the new pw/wt target ends up being. This is just restrictor plates, tunes, and ballast. We all do this today to fit in our respective classes. A merge would be easy for competitors to comply.

 

I still haven't heard any reasons why a merge would be a bad idea. Also, another Pro of merging GTS and ST is assuming that TT1, TT2, TT3, etc. follow suit is that it will give the GTS competitors a class to compete in time trials. This is a win win for both the competitors and NASA. GTS competitors will have more opportunity to compete and compete for tire contingencies, and NASA will have more "supersize" entries.

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larro

this entire thread was started just to ask if anyone else noticed gts numbers dropping. now the conversation has gone 3 pages in length on why we should combine or kill classes. the spec classes will never die(miata, e30). in my experience people move from classes for a few reasons. their car is out of date, they are going spec racing, they want something faster or, they are tired of getting beat by money. e36 cars and few cars alike no longer stand a chance in gts3 because of detuning. i know this has driven some away. people want to be competitve and race for wins. racing mid pack gets old when e46 + e92 drop a 100+hp to fit in a slower class and dominate. just using this as an example ive seen people move for the same reason in other classes.

 

yes people provide dyno sheets but people cheat.

 

if numbers are down and people arent coming due to that, make changes within the class rules so everyone gets a fare chance. limit tire size, make detuning mechanical and not electronic, dyno the top 3 cars at every event, etc.

 

combining classes isnt always the best answers.

 

numbers vary by region and due to many factors, life, economy, etc. in time different classes will pull more numbers. its cyclical.

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UKRBMW

Zig and Fox - are you asking Greg the same question? What is he doing to encourage GTS crossover? Is he removing the Porsche penalty? Or relaxing the non-factory car rule because or rocker panel change or side exhaust which are very common in GTS? Or can he start including torque in the hp/weight calculation?

 

I think if ST was made more in line and folks in German cars did more crossover you would have a much easier case for combining the classes. As it sits GTS is the better attanded class and we are still trying to attract more. So it's a bit silly to come in and make lots of arguments to this group without getting the truly struggling one to change first, would you agree?

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UKRBMW

Thanks Larro. I think detuning is a big challenge. I'm in a BMW and get the benefit of Randy's magic, but I can see how annoying it would be on the other side if it wasn't available.

 

Thanks for getting us back on track!

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fox4life

UKRBMW, sorry for semi hijacking your thread. I apologize. It was just in the name of trying to make NASA a more enticing organization to race with. I saw your original question and assumed you thought car counts in GTS were down, and I've seen the ST car counts doing the same at thought combining could be a good idea. No hard feelings.

 

Cheers!

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UKRBMW

Fox - it's not a problem. I've had very many of those type of discussions over the years. My only point is more of these concerns should be raised with ST leadership. All the changes seem to drive numbers down in ST - maybe it is time for some real out of the box thinking.

 

Larro is right - seems new technology is pushing older cars out of GTS. Not sure what the solution is, simply posing the question. Maybe some type of equalizer, but that goes against the original spirit of open rule set.

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cstreit911

So I've read through a lot of messages and I'll comment...

 

1. GTS is an identity. Many of us like it this way. I'm struggling with why someone from ST is on this forum criticizing our classes. At nationals and many regional events we will often have more cars than even spec Miata in a number of events I have been to. I don't have any desire to be just an "run anything" series. In fact, historically GTS was it's OWN series and ran under NASA, but was not a NASA series to begin with. SO why have it? Because it has always been here and we like it.

 

2. Regarding no commentary on the GTS2 at Nats. NASA did comment. They commented with the result. Getting involved in that sh*&storm/witchhunt/complaining session would have solved nothing. If you want to know what NASA is doing about compliance, ask your Series Director.

 

3. Compliance issues: We (GTS) have been working on this and debating it for years. Every form of motorsport always has someone pushing the rules, bending them, or breaking them. Finding a solution that works within the boundaries of a volunteer organization and is reliable and can pinpoint non-compliance is a monumental task. There is a LOT of thought, money, and energy being put into this. Fact is, it's really hard and NASA can't release a solution until it is fully baked. To do any less would be more damaging indeed.

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John Graber

25 GTS cars registered for Mid Ohio next weekend. There would be 26 if Chris would join the other 10 GTS4 cars!

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911.racer

Yes, 25 cars in GTS and 13 cars in Spec Miata.

 

Thanks

 

Ed

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Michael G.

We just came from the Watkins Glen with 30 + cars in GTS and only 6 Miatas.

 

Michael G.

NE GTS Dir.

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Alan_Wolfe
So I've read through a lot of messages and I'll comment...

 

1. GTS is an identity. Many of us like it this way. I'm struggling with why someone from ST is on this forum criticizing our classes. At nationals and many regional events we will often have more cars than even spec Miata in a number of events I have been to. I don't have any desire to be just an "run anything" series. In fact, historically GTS was it's OWN series and ran under NASA, but was not a NASA series to begin with. SO why have it? Because it has always been here and we like it.

 

As a newbie to GTS this kind of statement is disturbing to me. I thought GTS stood for German Touring Sportscar Challenge. And that you would be open to rules to equalize all the cars that qualify to run in the series. If that's not true, then why not change the name to "The mostly BMW platforms with a couple P-cars Touring Sportscar Challenge" and be explicit about which cars qualify to run, but provoke the above statement.

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Michael G.

Alan,

 

Where do you see injustice and preferential treatments towards BMWs and some Porsches in GTS? You see Rules not fair to VWs, Audis and MBs? May be I missed something.

 

Michael G.

NE GTS Dir.

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911.racer
So I've read through a lot of messages and I'll comment...

 

1. GTS is an identity. Many of us like it this way. I'm struggling with why someone from ST is on this forum criticizing our classes. At nationals and many regional events we will often have more cars than even spec Miata in a number of events I have been to. I don't have any desire to be just an "run anything" series. In fact, historically GTS was it's OWN series and ran under NASA, but was not a NASA series to begin with. SO why have it? Because it has always been here and we like it.

 

As a newbie to GTS this kind of statement is disturbing to me. I thought GTS stood for German Touring Sportscar Challenge. And that you would be open to rules to equalize all the cars that qualify to run in the series. If that's not true, then why not change the name to "The mostly BMW platforms with a couple P-cars Touring Sportscar Challenge" and be explicit about which cars qualify to run, but provoke the above statement.

 

Guess I am not getting the understanding of Alan's statement. Not sure what Chris said that made Alan write what he did. I think that Chris was just pointing out that at one point GTS was an independent series (like 944Challenge is) that ran with whomever, but at one point NASA adapted the series.

 

In the upcoming Mid Ohio event next week the numbers are 12 BMW's, 11 Porsche's and one VW.

 

Thanks

 

Ed

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UKRBMW

Guys - I think you are missing the point but I'm a little tired of arguing with everybody. Numbers are great in Great Lakes and NE so we will just go ahead and forget about this and keep watching 3-4 car GTS fields in half of the other regions...

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brkntrxn
I'm a little tired of arguing with everybody.

 

 

Quoting this for future reference.

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Michael G.

Alex,

 

There is no argument that some Regions are low on numbers, but the point is that changing the structure and philosophy of GTS is not the answer. There are certain local specifics of the demographics play the role as well as the efforts and support put in place by regional teams. If you look at the overall numbers of racers driving German cars through out the country, NE and Great Lakes are not the only areas that house those. There are plenty in CA, SE, MA..., so we just need to figure out how to attract those to come and race with NASA.

 

Michael G.

NE GTS Dir.

Edited by Guest

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brkntrxn

Michael,

 

You would be doing yourself a favor by undirecting your comment to me. I have my opinions on this topic and have not expressed them in this thread.

 

 

-Kevin

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Michael G.

Kevin,

As per your advice, edited and did myself a favor.

Thank you.

Michael.

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cstreit911
So I've read through a lot of messages and I'll comment...

 

1. GTS is an identity. Many of us like it this way. I'm struggling with why someone from ST is on this forum criticizing our classes. At nationals and many regional events we will often have more cars than even spec Miata in a number of events I have been to. I don't have any desire to be just an "run anything" series. In fact, historically GTS was it's OWN series and ran under NASA, but was not a NASA series to begin with. SO why have it? Because it has always been here and we like it.

 

As a newbie to GTS this kind of statement is disturbing to me. I thought GTS stood for German Touring Sportscar Challenge. And that you would be open to rules to equalize all the cars that qualify to run in the series. If that's not true, then why not change the name to "The mostly BMW platforms with a couple P-cars Touring Sportscar Challenge" and be explicit about which cars qualify to run, but provoke the above statement.

 

 

I'm confused as to why you are confused. I was referring to the suggestion that GTS merge with ST. Perhaps you misunderstood. I'll clarify. I have no desire to merge with ST which runs any model of cars ever made because (as you said) we are a German car series... ...not (as I said) a "run anything series. Why is that disturbing?

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Alan_Wolfe

From reading through this thread last night I got the impression that attitude carries over to the GTS rule making. At east coast nationals there were no Audi or VW entrants for example. After almost a year of emersion in GTS racing I am coming to the conclusion that to be competitive you have to bring the right platform. That the rule makers are not "open" to suggested rule changes to make all GTS eligible cars competitive. That while PT and ST make the effort to equalize competitors, GTS hides behind the platitude of "open" to preserve the status quo.

 

Please tell me I am not only confused, but wrong about this.

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Michael G.

Alan,

 

First of all, I can reassure that there was never an intent to favor or exclude certain brands in GTS. Naturally, some are more popular and / or more competitive to begin with, as a result we have dominating brands. But that is not unique to GTS. Even though, you feel ST/PT does a better job equalizing - those classes have their favorites too, such as Corvettes in ST2 with some mix of EVOs and STis.

We would like to see more VWs, Audis and MBs competing in GTS, but I doubt that numbers of those would increase, if we would give them some preference in the Rules. You certainly can submit the proposal for new Rules update, if you have any particular ideas, like different factor for FWD, for example. Mercedes somehow is out of active racing scene in US altogether, not sure why.

 

Michael G.

NE GTS Dir.

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