2009 Rules are posted

[Tri-Agan]

in other series of road racing the wing height is not measured form the deck but measured from the roof, using a straight edge and a digital angle finder and the wing is measured from it's highest point, with or with out wicker and it's set at angle, this would be the best standard in my opinion based on how the mustang has a flat deck and sits higher than the camaro which is lower and angles toward , there for giving the mustang a potential advantage. that spec could simply by 1-2 inch below the th roof. now my opinion is not much but when i was crew chief for a pro race team in world challenge that's how it was done....

 

The problem is that we're all dumb Bubba's and wouldn't know how to set the car up within spec as you describe. If you add into the equation that I am in charge of measuring, and I drink a heck of a lot as soon as I get out of the car, we really need an easy rule to apply and police.

 

Kent

[Al F.]

Gotta love Kent!

[BADVENM]

Tom asked a great question on the wheel for CMC2.

 

I have the same question for CMC1, is the 16 pound wheel with or without lug nuts? I think I read or heard that it (the 16 pound wheel) does not include the balancing weights?

[Glenn]

wheel weights is w/out lug nuts. but if a cheep 17x9.5 wheel is out there and come in at under the limit, we can see about allowing that wheel. but its gotta be fair to the other cars too. is there a similare wheel for the 3rd gens? 4th gens?

[Al F.]

Tom: modifying the stock panels is the only thing contemplated at this point.

 

Wheel weight minimum is for a bare wheel, no weights, no lug nuts, no tire. What is that $250 17x9.5 that weighs 16 lbs? Most of the OEM 17s are in the 21-22lb range. A few are down closer to 19. That is why the target was set at 18; slightly lower than the typical oem wheel.

[Tom Beverly]

Tire Rack ( http://www.tirerack.com ) is showing Enkei RPF1 17x9.5 wheels for 260$ each (retail) for a rear application on a 2001 Cobra, however the offset (18mm), lug pattern (5x4.5), etc. is correct for Fox and SN95's wanting to run that wheel all around.

The only concern I have is spoke clearance for my 2000R Brembo setup. I have not confirmed they will clear.

 

I stumbled across these while searching for wheels for my AI project car (93 Mustang Coupe), however since the rules for CMC2 have changed dramatically I'm seriously considering selling off a lot of the over the top AI items, deleting some of my cage and converting the car to run in CMC2 for this upcoming season. I also asked about the Tiger Racing flares because my car already has them installed on the front; however I have not done the rear yet.

 

There is another catch to these wheels:

I also spoke with a close friend in the tire/wheel industry about getting these directly from Enkei (since Tire Rack shows them as special order and I am a cheap ass) and was told that the bright silver would be well over 350$ my cost and are in stock, but Enkei expected delivery of the regular silver ones in mid January and the price on the tire rack site is pretty accurate for regular silver finish. I have not contacted Tire Rack to see what they have to say, but my wholesale price on those wheel from Tire Rack is only slightly less then 260$. If they are in fact selling those wheels in "bright silver", then that is an amazing price. However if bright silver is really just regular silver and the price is the same, then I'm sure like many of you, I could care less about the color and the price is still damn good for a 17x9.5†wheel and the light weight is just an added bonus. Every other wheel I have found in that size weighs more and the lowest I have found start in the 400$ neighborhood.

Both Tire Rack and the Enkei site say the same weight and my source said the same as well.

If these become “legal†I might be willing to try and workout a group buy if enough CMC2/AI Mustang people are interested.

 

I have no idea if there is a similar wheel available for the GM crowd.

[ls168camaro]

CMC2-my guess is that a TPI 3rd gen with 330 rwtq will absolutely dominate. Any chance we could see the test cars dyno sheets posted for comparisons sake?

 

350-option-what are the rules for the internals and compression?

 

Wings-since when did Steeda become an OEM like Mecam, Roush, SLP, and Saleen? Too bad wings/spoilers aren't left to AI as I still don't understand why they are allowed or needed in our class.

 

Brakes-anybody know how much wilwood, brembo, and stoptech calipers are?

[KiMifan]

Since everybody is already asking for exceptions, how about allowing this wing:

 

http://store.roushperformance.com/detail.aspx?ID=1073

 

Roush is listed as an "OEM" after all ...

 

I wouldn't worry about the 3rd gen torque. If I had a 3rd gen, I'd be pissed that it's got a 20hp deficit to the 4th gen at the same weight. That's gonna get freight-trained at tracks with long straights.

[KiMifan]

On the subject or brakes and prices, are these legal:

 

http://store.roushperformance.com/detail.aspx?ID=612

[ls168camaro]

Have you driven a CMC car on track with a 20 hp or 20 tq difference? I have done both and could tell a huge difference when I had 20 more tq with the same hp. Couldn't tell any difference with 20 more hp and the same tq. But like I said lets compare some dyno graphs so everything is on the table.

 

Other parts suggested are too expensive per rules I believe.

So since Roush is OEM and actually manufacture's cars (everyone knows they aren't a manufacturer and ford is the OEM) does that make any part that Roush has ever made legal? Of course not.

[ls168camaro]

CMC2 Brakes-doesn't talk much about the rotor other than the size? Any material? Slotted? Drilled?

[KiMifan]

The Roush caliper I linked is $453. That's under the $600 limit, but the question is whether a sale price counts per the rules.

[ls168camaro]

When looking at the shock rule it states readily available to the public from a retail source.

Does readily available mean always available to the public or, I found a dealership going out of business and they were selling everything to the public at 50% off?

[Glenn]

Any chance we could see the test cars dyno sheets posted for comparisons sake?

it was deemed that in the best intrest of the series that a test program would be unwise. therefore a "best guess" was put in place. so there are no dyno graphs to review. the directors will be looking at this VERY closely.

[Glenn]

i wouldnt use a sale price to stay under a limit. nor would i use a "everything must go" fire sale either.

if you do and the item is not on sale (basically all the time) then a protest can be filed and upheld when we cant seem to find then for less than $600. your setting yourself up for disaster. and realize this - you cant drop a DQ. thus ruining your whole season.

[Rustang72]

i wouldnt use a sale price to stay under a limit. nor would i use a "everything must go" fire sale either.

if you do and the item is not on sale (basically all the time) then a protest can be filed and upheld when we cant seem to find then for less than $600. your setting yourself up for disaster. and realize this - you cant drop a DQ. thus ruining your whole season.

What do you do when a part is discontinued and the only stores left selling it are the rip off artists who can't get rid of the stuff? Would proof that you bought it at a major supplier for x price count? What about prior list price?

[Rustang72]

Tom: modifying the stock panels is the only thing contemplated at this point.

 

Wheel weight minimum is for a bare wheel, no weights, no lug nuts, no tire. What is that $250 17x9.5 that weighs 16 lbs? Most of the OEM 17s are in the 21-22lb range. A few are down closer to 19. That is why the target was set at 18; slightly lower than the typical oem wheel.

Enkei makes wheels in that size and weight to fit 5x4.75 bolt pattern. Vivid Racing has the NT03+M for $260 in 17x9.5. Also, Tire Rack can custom drill a lot of the inexpensive common lightweight wheels they sell.

[Adam Ginsberg]

CMC2 Brakes-doesn't talk much about the rotor other than the size? Any material? Slotted? Drilled?

 

I'll agree that one isn't as clear, but without a doubt, the rules will be the same for -2 as -1:

 

CMC1 -

7.32.8 Braking systems shall conform to the following specifications:

1. The one piece front or rear hub with rotor may be replaced with a separate hub and rotor or separate hub, rotor hat and rotor.

2. Rotors shall be cast iron only and may be vented. No cross drilling or slotting is allowed.

 

BTW - the Enkei RFP1 is indeed a very light rim, and should fit over your Cobra R/Brembo calipers, Tom. However, they don't tolerate much abuse.

[KiMifan]

What if you buy a part (caliper, shock, wing, etc.) this season for a regular retail price under the limit and there is a subsequent price increase that puts it over the limit? Is there a mechanism to ensure that parts that are 100 percent legal under the rule this year will remain that way? Sometimes it happens that parts take a huge price jump for some reason, like exchange rates, supplier issues, change in demand, etc. that could have a big impact on rules based solely on price rather than performance.

 

I think the roush caliper is being closed out, so "when they're gone, they're gone." What if you buy a part that's under the price limit and it's later discontinued? There would be no way to prove what the current price is if it's no longer for sale. Do you need to keep receipts? I'm seriously asking for an official ruling on those Roush calipers because that's a great deal and it appears it should be legal under the $600 limit. They are available to the public for that price right now.

[Tri-Agan]

Here's what I don't understand. We've had price limits for years on shocks and never experienced issues. There are hundreds of good caliper options out there that are well under the $600 limit. The fact that you can make brackets to hold a non OEM caliper opens up the selection even more. At the end of the day do you really think someone is going to make a stink if you bought a caliper for $550 and most places sell it for $601? If you want to sleep easy, don't flirt with the $600 and be smart and save the money. To me, it's just like the minimum weight rule. Some guys plan it out so they come off the track with 1lb to spare. Those same drivers will be the first ones to complain that they used extra gas while driving to the dyno before the scales, instead of the scales before the dyno. (Tough crap, that's the directors call and based on the scheduling of apparatus) My point is this, if you want to buy a caliper for $599.99, I would make sure your purchase is well documented. (One last thing.....If you intend to race in the East, I would plan to carry more gas in the tank because we run you all over the place before even getting to the scales.)

 

Kent

[Glenn]

the burden of proof is placed upon the racer - always. i say cover your ass. keep receipts and documentation.

 

we almost yearly up the price limit on shocks as the price on them increases. i see the caliper's and wings as being no different.

the price limit on shocks is based on the most expensive OEM shock. that would be the Koni DA's on the 4th gens.

 

 

guys - dont "what if" this to death. look at the rule, understand its intent. dont look for loopholes. the purpose of this class is to not out build a fellow racer. what pride is there in beating me on track w/ a set of $800 calipers that were purchased from an obscure sale when i'm on a legal set-up? brakes for example - i've been running the very same calipers i put on my car in 2004. they have never been off the car. they were used when i put them on and they have never been rebuilt. point is, you dont need allot of "caliper" for this class. a simple 2 piston caliper is all you really need.

 

 

so to elaborate on this some. lets say you have a sponsor who can sell you a caliper for $600. the caliper sells for $601, but you got it for $600. if that vendor is not willing to sell that caliper to every single CMC racer for $600, your caliper is now illegal. so sale prices would fall into this "issue" too. if you got them at a one time price that places them under the limit and even one racer is denied a purchase of the same part at the same price - your part is now illegal.

i had a deal set-up thru a local sponsor for a set of Penskie shocks. i was going to get them for under the price limit, but when i asked if every single person in CMC could get them for that price, i was told no. i passed on the deal.

 

look at the price. evaluate the availability and purchase at your own risk.

[ls168camaro]

Glenn-your just setting up the excuse for when I beat you with my Stoptechs you can just blame it on the brakes.

 

I did a little searching on the intraweb and couldn't come up with caliper only prices for 4 piston brakes such as Stoptech, Wilwood, and Brembo. If anyone finds a sourse please let us know. What I did find interesting on ebay was alot of ex Nascar type brakes.

 

Glenn-there is a still a difference in cars that are built to the limit of the rules in every facet.

[KiMifan]

I've been trying to do the same thing for the 2000 Cobra R Brembos, which how I stumbled onto those Roush calipers on sale. I can't find a caliper-only price for the Cobra Rs because they are only sold in a kit for "retail" sales as far as I can tell. These calipers are a true OEM bolt-on for the 94-04 Mustangs that use the same stock 13-inch rotors as the PBRs and should be a no-brainer as far as legality is concerned. They are the most readily available and practical four-piston caliper available for Mustangs so I hope they are deemed legal.

[Tom Beverly]

The 2000R caliper set is without a doubt legal as the rules are written. You can buy the whole kit (pads, rotors, calipers and lines) for 1200$ at the highest retail pricing. Simple math, even if they only charged you for the calipers (and gave you all the other parts for free) then they would still be legal since that would be 600$ each.

 

Should we separate some of these issues into separate threads if we are trying to get approval on them? (Specifically for me is the wheel issue since there seems to be lighter wheels readily available for both Ford and GM applications cheaper then the heavier/more fancy/expensive wheels)?

[KiMifan]

Got a link? I've been seeing prices up to and over $1500 for the kit, which is why I'm asking. I know the rotors can be bought for about $125 a set separate, so that would put the caliper price pretty close to $600 each, maybe over.

 

Maybe they should put a price limit on the wheels too.

 

edit: I see now that Summit is selling the kit for $1199.95, which is the cheapest I've seen it advertised. Which goes back to my question before. What if the price goes up to $1350? Is it now illegal?

Edited December 13, 2008 by Guest