Nationals updat

[liebbe1548534713]

I would like to describe the circumstances around my dyno disqualification at the Nationals. As you may be aware, I was driving a borrowed car that currently runs in CMC2 in the Texas Region. As such, I was going to have to restrict the motor and provide a dyno sheet for the event. Upon arriving on Tuesday, I was able to get on the dyno and ran with a 32 mm restrictor. The car does not have a working engine temperature gauge, so we warmed the car as best we could and made three pulls - 226.8 hp and 299 ft-lbs. I then ran two practice sessions with the 33 mm plate and the power felt flat. I decided to try a 34 mm plate in practice for the next two sessions to see how it felt. There seemed to be a bit more response so I decided to get another dyno run. I dropped it off and expected it to sit there a while before they could get to it. However, they got it right on while the engine was still heat soaked from the practice session. With no temp gauge I decided to consider it warmed up and run it. On the third pull it spewed a little coolant out indicated it was overheating. The pulls indicated 226 hp and 299 tq again. I thought it was good and that the 1 mm restrictor size change made a minimal difference and within dyno repeatability. I called it good and left the 34 mm plate in for the rest of the weekend.

 

After the main event, the cars sat in impound and tech for about an hour or an hour and a half before I got sent to the dyno. The car had difficulty starting with what seemed like a weak battery but did eventually start. I drove it to the dyno and shut it off. It was push started to get on the dyno and strapped down with a relatively cool engine. The first pull was near 245-250 hp and well over 300 tq. We were all blown away. Two more pulls confirmed similar numbers. I mentioned that the previous runs were done with a very hot engine so the car was allowed to warm up until coolant came out of the overflow. However, the water coming out was reported to be cold and not hot. A run was made and the numbers were high again at about 250 hp and 308 tq. 24 hp and 9 ft-lbs higher than before. Nobody could figure out why.

 

The dyno seemed right as Kellam's Mustang ran within minutes before and a Miata ran minutes after my runs and their numbers were correct.

 

In my mind, the leading reason is the engine heat soak on the first dyno run was pulling timing and therefore power out of the motor. The post race runs did not have the same kind of heat soak. Other theories include bad temperature sensor, air pockets in the engine/coolant, the motor is getting ready to blow up.

 

Whatever the reason, the car made too much power on the dyno when tested and got disqualified. It was not my intention to have excessive horsepower, I did what I thought were the right procedures before the race and I apologize for any cloud this may put on NASA, CMC, or myself.

 

One lesson that I will take away at this time is that while you can race without a working temperature gauge, you need to have one for dyno testing to help ensure repeatable runs if possible.

 

Sincerely,

 

Rob – DQ’d CMC Goober - Liebbe

 

[Glenn]

First and most importantly I would like to thank everyone involved in putting on a great event. I would also like to thank our fellow CMC drivers, its great putting a face to a name. Our goal was to improve our lap times from last year as well as placement amongst our competitors, we did that and had a whole lot of fun doing it. Our team of 2 did pretty well, drum rear brakes and all

 

As far as the rules and violations, they were broken. Its up to the driver to ensure his/her car is within the rules. Class designations and/or number sizes were measured last year in tech. There is no option on sizes, its written in black and white (7.2.3). If the required size per the CCR is now an option, change the wording to "should be" or something like that or simply take it out. It will make the document that much shorter.

 

If lexan/plexiglass windows are gonna be allowed, change the CCR. Last I read they are not allowed. You're opening a can of worms with allowing it. Drivers will now be weighing their windows to the thousanth of a pound to ensure they are above the stock glass window weight. Tech will have to now weigh these windows to ensure they weigh more then stock glass. Its black and white in the rules, why is it now allowed at a National championship event?

 

If cowel covers arent required, change the rules. This is the National championships, none of these rules should be a shock.

 

What about fuel stored in ice or something of the sort then put in the car?Is this allowed? Per the CCR (7.22.3) fuel coolers are prohibited. Can you transfer chilled fuel from another location into the tank?

 

Did anyone else see cars filling their fuel tanks in the garage...GP garages included?

 

Basically, we ensured that we followed the CCR to the letter with every rule that was listed in black and white. I'm dissapointed to find out that at a National event a few of these rules were now optional or changed and made legal, whether a performance enhancement or not, they are the rules. Its really not that hard to conform to them.

 

Where in the rules does it say you can put fuel inthe car?

[MHISSTC]

Where in the rules does it say you can put fuel inthe car?

 

Allow me to try and clarify a couple of the points Dave was trying to make.

 

Fueling a car in any garage in the RM Region is a BIG no, no. We are required to do any fueling needed outside of any building or suffer the consequences of fines or DQs. We don't know for sure what the concequenses are because it's such a big deal no one dares do it. Therefore, we were very uneasy watching numerous teams fueling inside the garages.

 

Also, something that was brought up that we had never seen before was fueling the cars with fuel jugs that had been sitting in icewater. If fuel coolers are not allowed, how is it that putting chilled fuel into the car is OK?

[FBody383]

Where in the rules does it say you can put fuel inthe car?

Right next to the one that says a driver can get in the car. Which is just after the one describing how one can add shroud to a radiator.

 

Since the fueling example keeps getting tossed around, just put it in the rules... with the radiator shrouds.

 

It we're going to race a National class, how can we continue to have accepted regional variances?

 

Would it suck to have to DQ everybody at Nationals? Sure.

 

Is there any reason all the cars at Nationals cannot be in compliance with the letter and spirit of the rules? No.

 

As long as we don't gloss over that by all accounts, ALL the CMC/2 drivers and officials did the series proud.

[Alien]

Also, something that was brought up that we had never seen before was fueling the cars with fuel jugs that had been sitting in icewater. If fuel coolers are not allowed, how is it that putting chilled fuel into the car is OK?

 

That's an interesting little trick. I almost see that as the same as how some drag racers put dry ice ontop of their intakes before a run. Will we see dry ice bags on grid being pulled off moments before the cars go out?

It's a tricky subject of what you can do to the car without really doing anything to the car. Isn't that the same as people using big fans to cool down their car before the next session? In autocross, it's common if a car has a very short time between runs that people will mist their tires and radiators to cool them down.

 

No real opinions here, just adding talking points.

[Glenn]

Where in the rules does it say you can put fuel inthe car?

 

Allow me to try and clarify a couple of the points Dave was trying to make.

 

Fueling a car in any garage in the RM Region is a BIG no, no. We are required to do any fueling needed outside of any building or suffer the consequences of fines or DQs. We don't know for sure what the concequenses are because it's such a big deal no one dares do it. Therefore, we were very uneasy watching numerous teams fueling inside the garages.

 

Also, something that was brought up that we had never seen before was fueling the cars with fuel jugs that had been sitting in icewater. If fuel coolers are not allowed, how is it that putting chilled fuel into the car is OK?

 

I'm w/ ya now. Thanks.

I dont like the idea of "chilled fuel". Bet if you took that car to the dyno right after he added the fuel, it would:

A) Show there is not reason to worry about it.

B) Show what your worried about and result in a DQ.

 

Fuel has a pretty high rate of heat absorbtion. Form what I get told all the time, beer only takes 8 minutes to get as cold as its going to get in an ice chest. I wonder if the opposite is true. How long do you think that fuel stays cold while sitting in grid? Or during the warm-up lap? After all that, its in no way as cold as it was when it was put in. So say it was up to only 60 degree's at the start of the race? How is that any different than me dyuno certing my car in Aug and getting checked in Nov? The fuel is going to be much colder in Nov. Should we now have a temp for fuel on the cert sheet? No. So do we police this? Not a chance.

I've won many, many races. Won a couple Nationals. I've done it w/ room temp fuel and no nitrogen in the tires. Play all the silly games you want. Do what you think you must to keep from pointing the finger at one's self as the the thing thats keeping those Winner sticker off your car. Let them chill fuel.

Active fule coolers mounted in the car, well thats a whole 'notha deal. Even then, its minimal.

[MHISSTC]

No real opinions here, just adding talking points.

 

Absolutely. There were some good lessons learned, but there are still some inconsistencies. Some of them are probably trivial, but some of them might not be. We would like to see a few of these topics discussed further in order to iron out some of these inconsistencies. We'll also likely propose some rule changes again in the off season.

 

Although we definitely benefitted, we certainly don't want to see any more of this kind of podium turnover in the future due to DQs or breakage. It sucks. Everyone did so well, had such clean races, and had an otherwise fantastic time to have it end in such an unfortunate manner.

 

I liked that Al did a "series tech" that pretty much went over some basic safety and appearance items and prevented anyone from being DQ'd for any really blatently stupid and simple reasons. It also helped the vehicles maintain a more consistent media appearance. That said, no one at Nationals should ever need it. If you need to, have a regional tech party with pizza and beer to ensure everyone (especially the newbies) are good to go.

 

Prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

 

Attending a National event definitely warrants a higher level of preparation than a regional event. We literally did a line by line checkoff of every single rule in the CCR and CMC rulebook for several weeks leading up to the event to ensure we were absolutely completely legal. We also took care of a few iffy mechanical and appearance items that we probably could have gotten away with regionally. We're only a couple hours from home if something big needs fixed at a regional event. But at Nationals, there's no way we could have made a 26 hour round trip to home and back to retreive a forgotten tool or needed part. That's why we packed about triple the number of parts and tools we normally take to a regional event.

 

Paraphrasing something someone else said on this forum a while back, If you build the car to the razors edge of being legal, expect to eventually find yourself on the wrong side of that edge. That happened in at least one instance that I am aware of this year. Building a car so close to the edge of the rules that it needs the ride height adjusted in order to stay legal based on running a set of new versus a set of used tires never would have occurred to me. I am amazed by and commend those who can consistently build and race to that level. That's the reason those teams consistently finish at the top of the heap while we consistently finish near the bottom. But, we're not bothered by that fact. We're hobby racers and we're having a hell of a good time being out there with everyone else, doing this in our spare time and on a limited budget. Why else would we still be running 11" rotors with single pistion calipers in the front and drum brakes in the rear?

[MHISSTC]

Let them chill fuel.

 

That's pretty much what we were told when we asked someone else about it who has much more racing experience than we do. As I understand it, the real benefit comes during a refueling stop during an endurance event. At the moment you pull the fuel out of chiller it begins warming and expanding. But for that instant and for a short time thereafter, you can fit more fuel into a smaller space and therefore extend your fuel stops.

 

Also, if what your saying is true, in order to make sure I'm drinking cold beer all the time, I need to make sure I finish an open container within 8 minutes, insulate it with a drink coozie, or develop and hand held active beer cooler system.

[RichV]

Taking this all in. I agree that rules are there for a reason, and therefore need to be followed.

 

How about this scenario, just throwing it out for feedback. HP and weight are biggies and do not apply.

 

If there is a technical infraction, let the top 5 finishers decide on DQ or 'fix it'. So for example, Dave B's issue would be voted on by the top 5 finishers, discreetly of course, right there in impound. Then the powers that be would deliver the news to the infractee. But if they get the same technical infraction at a later race, DQ.

[liebbe1548534713]

Taking this all in. I agree that rules are there for a reason, and therefore need to be followed.

 

How about this scenario, just throwing it out for feedback. HP and weight are biggies and do not apply.

 

If there is a technical infraction, let the top 5 finishers decide on DQ or 'fix it'. So for example, Dave B's issue would be voted on by the top 5 finishers, discreetly of course, right there in impound. Then the powers that be would deliver the news to the infractee. But if they get the same technical infraction at a later race, DQ.

 

Roman style - thumbs up or down and the release the lions!!!! Just kidding.

[Glenn]

Taking this all in. I agree that rules are there for a reason, and therefore need to be followed.

 

How about this scenario, just throwing it out for feedback. HP and weight are biggies and do not apply.

 

If there is a technical infraction, let the top 5 finishers decide on DQ or 'fix it'. So for example, Dave B's issue would be voted on by the top 5 finishers, discreetly of course, right there in impound. Then the powers that be would deliver the news to the infractee. But if they get the same technical infraction at a later race, DQ.

 

I agree.

Some consistancy in consulting w/ the racers as a whole over a rules infraction is a good thing.

But what happens when one guys feels he's always gettingthe no vote when others get the yes? There will always be a way for someone to get twisted.

I still think allowing the fellow racers to decide your fate is a better way.

[Al F.]

Guys. Thanks for the comments and feedback. CMC is about balance, not spec and not wide open. I can promise you we are never going to have HC type teardowns. We are also not simply going to "weigh & release". This means as long as we continue to have a difference in the level of tech rigor at regional vs national events we will continue to have cars show up at nationals that have out of somethig out of compliance.

 

If we find something outside of post race tech, efforts are made to correct it if possible. This is what happened with everyones rear class designators (new since this summer) dons dash and erics quarter windows. I made the call that Erics quarter windows did not have to be fixed by Saturday.

 

While sometimes we bring drivers together go weigh in, we are not going to swap roles. Officials officiate, that is their responsibility. Drivers have a two level appeals process to protect them from bad calls. I don't believe my call was bad in this case, there is no way Eric was going to fun run because of that, but of course drivers with different opinions are free to act.

[Pat Stone1548534713]

What is a car in CMC doing with lexan windows? That is a very basic rule that's been there since the beginning. Especially at a National event? And roll bar supports in the wrong place. Was that the same car Dave brought last year and raced regionly this year? Who was doing tech before this weekend? Fix it tickets hunh, very interesting. Never heard of that before in racing, ever. This series is in trouble, no doubt.

 

PS

[Al F.]

Pat, read a little more. Lexan quarter windows, not windshield, not back window. Hell, most of our cars don't even have quarter windows. Theyre the little piece behind the door glass and in front of the C pillar. In this case they are hugely thick, like stop a bullet thick, held on with ridiculously big bolts, and have chromed steel marine air scoops on them. I literally laughed and so would most of you I suspect if you saw them. I don't blame Eric, he bought the car that way and in his entire year with it nobody pointed this out. It was a cmc car when he bought it, so why would he suspect anything?

[Lady in Nomex]

I've gotten fix it tickets, that is nothing new. Mine have been for an expired window net and some other things I can't remember right now.

[mitchntx1548534714]

It was a cmc car when he bought it, so why would he suspect anything?

 

Using that logic ...

 

Rob borrowed a CMC car and it was 20 over on power. Why is Rob being DQed for a borrowed car's lack of being legal?

 

Why would he suspect anything?

 

Every one understands it was your call, Al.

Every one understands your reasoning.

Very few of us agree with it.

Very few of us like it.

 

I see and read so much CMC Rah-Rah on here, yet for many of us, the CMC National Championship title has too many asterisks next to it. Almost every title has been tarnished with some sort of contraversy.

 

Why?

 

Too much contact. Too many hand-shake deals. Too much "doing their own thing". Too much inconsistency.

 

You and your posse proclaim CMC is a grass roots series, with the best group of drivers out there, yet its run like Mom and Pop Saturday night dirt track show.

[koserv]

I've said it a couple of times and will roll it out there again....I was amazed at how many competitors at a national event hadn't spent a Sunday afternoon in their shop with the car and the rulebook. Had each competitor done that, the "fix-it" items would have been fixed, two of the DQ items would have been redone, and perhaps Rob would have had some bullets at the dyno. The time to call BS on a rule is during the silly season. The time to disagree with the director/official who is making calls at the track is at the track with all of your fellow competitors.

 

Congratulations to the new CMC/2 champions and all the podium finishers!

 

And to everyone out there.....Argue your points on the rules during silly season. Live with the rules that come out. Actually spend some time with your car to get it in the box. And get your a&& out to Mid-O next year!

[Trevor571548534737]

Since I am building my car as we speak, can you please let me know all of the rules I can break, and the ones I shouldn't? It will help me out for nationals next year.

[MHISSTC]

... can you please let me know all of the rules I can break, and the ones I shouldn't?

 

....I was amazed at how many competitors at a national event hadn't spent a Sunday afternoon in their shop with the car and the rulebook.

 

Seriously, grab the rule books and go through them line by line. Dave and I spent about 3 weeks going over the CCR and CMC rules line by line to ensure were were in compliance with everything and doing "just in case" maintenance and checking every nut and bolt on the car to increase our chances of finising the event without problems. The additional time doing prep paid off since we found and had the time to fix problems with our exhaust system, a missing transmission to bellhousing bolt, a leaking gas tank filler grommet, and a cross threaded oil cooler line fitting. Fixing any one of those at Nationals or having to deal with the consequenses of not having them fixed before the event could have seriously intruded into quality beer drinking and socializing time at Miller.

[cozog1548534733]

Since there seems to be some variance in the rules interpretation from region to region, why not require, as a reg. dir.'s responsibilities, each reg. dir. to have a 'tech party'? Racers can be assured of being compliant with the rules if they attend the 'party' and get a sign off from the reg. director.

 

Then the only thing to worry about at nat's would be making hp/tq.

 

Even though it is the racer's ultimate responsibility to be rules compliant, they could be running in their region for months without knowing they are not 100% compliant.

 

I feel that if there is to be ANY variation in how the rules are to be interpreted at nats, then the competitors should be given the support to have their cars 'pre-teched' before they leave for nats.

[BADVENM]

We could have protested from 5th place for the lexan window and cowel items but that would have only got us to 4th (at the time not knowing about Dave B's thing and the hp thing)..not worth it. Plus, sounds like it wouldnt have mattered.

 

One other thing regarding protesting, we have 30 minutes. Tech (in impound) didnt get to Dave B's car for close to 30 minutes. Once they did and found the infraction we were up to 4th. Well after that we found out about the hp thing which pushed us to 3rd. If they would have enforced the lexan window and cowel rule thing we could have been up to 2nd. We were out of time to file a protest for those two infractions and again, sounded like it wouldnt have been enforced so it saved us $150 ($75 per infraction I think is the cost) but cost us 2nd place.

 

Maybe something can be done about the 30 minute rule at National events.

[Sidney]

We could have protested from 5th place for the lexan window and cowel items but that would have only got us to 4th (at the time not knowing about Dave B's thing and the hp thing)..not worth it. Plus, sounds like it wouldnt have mattered.

 

One other thing regarding protesting, we have 30 minutes. Tech (in impound) didnt get to Dave B's car for close to 30 minutes. Once they did and found the infraction we were up to 4th. Well after that we found out about the hp thing which pushed us to 3rd. If they would have enforced the lexan window and cowel rule thing we could have been up to 2nd. We were out of time to file a protest for those two infractions and again, sounded like it wouldnt have been enforced so it saved us $150 ($75 per infraction I think is the cost) but cost us 2nd place.

 

Maybe something can be done about the 30 minute rule at National events.

 

The Quarter Windows were visible from Tuesday or Wednesday (whenever Anders showed up at Miller). Why didn't you protest them after Qualifying on Thursday?

 

Sidney

[mitchntx1548534714]

I think its important to point at that the owner driver of the car in question is not what any one peeved at.

 

You ran a great, clean race and kudos to you.

 

None of this is directed at you. Its all about the system in place.

[BADVENM]

I never noticed the lexan windows til impound Saturday. Plus, if he were required to remove them I dont know if he could have competed with none in place. Also, it didnt improve the performance (which was the theme of Nats despite being strictly prohibited) so it wouldnt have mattered. I did mention the class designations not being met on several CMC and CMC2 cars to Al and asked if this was something we could protest, but again it didnt enhance performance and he would have handed out fix it tickets (this is what he told me).

 

I think Al told the driver about the lexan windows in impound after the race Saturday and from the drivers facial expression he looked rather upset/mad which led me to think he was DQ'd.

 

None of this is intended at an of the drivers, just the process and the hope that in the future items listed in the CCR be enforced or simply removed to avoid any confusion.

 

I heard about Adams shifter bolt, we had the top bolt in our shifter completely back out earlier this year at an exhibition event. We fixed it after that event then checked it again 2 days before leaving for Nationals. We're learning to never assume anything when it comes to the race car.

[nasa-rm]

Seriously, grab the rule books and go through them line by line. Dave and I spent about 3 weeks going over the CCR and CMC rules line by line to ensure were were in compliance with everything and doing "just in case" maintenance and checking every nut and bolt on the car to increase our chances of finising the event without problems.

 

In our case, this is what it came down to. I overlooked the rule and this is no different if I had overlooked a loose bolt that could have left me on the sidelines. I was caught out and am completely horrified that I brought a car that was non-compliant.

 

Scott and Dave have spent countless hours tweaking the car and making sure it was as solid as could be. They did what it took to finish the best they could. I am thrilled the are bringing home another CMC podium to the Rocky Mountain Region!!!