New Toyo RR

[MHISSTC]

And usually with these kind of tires you'll need a new set every weekend to be at your peak. Yah I'm sure they'll last a long time but I'm willing to bet they are very sensitive to heat cycle and will drop off after the 5th heat cycle.

 

Didn't the testing indicate otherwise?

[rsmith350]

Originally Posted by Adam Ginsberg on the TX site

 

A ~3175lb, ~250rwhp CMC car on 2 different RR compounds was tested at BW in June of this year, in addition to a well prepared and setup AI car. An entire day of testing, in some warm temps (~92 degress, IIRC).

 

Toyo had 4 tire engineers onsite that day (and possibly the entire weekend), taking temps, pressures, notes, etc. IMO, they (NASA and Toyo) took this gig pretty seriously.

 

17's are supposed to be available as well. Not sure when, however.

 

 

Unfortunately, I don't have any copies of the test sheets, nor the results, as we weren't allowed to keep them. There were a total of 4 sets of Toyos bolted to my car - my original set (went out just to make sure everything was good on the car), a brand new set of freshly shaved RA1's, then two different compounds of RR's (also brand new).

 

S1 involved going out and running on my existing Toyos, making sure the car was ok. S2 was the fresh set of shaved RA1's to get a baseline. S3 was RR-A, S4 was RR-B. I was instructed to run the ENTIRE session (20+min), taking ~2-3 laps to get up to speed/temp, then run them as hard as possible for the rest of the session. Engineers were on hand to take tire temps/pressures, answer questions, and collect data sheets from the drivers after each session.

 

There were NO changes made to my car, at all, beyond bolting the rims and tires onto my hooptie. We used the same pressures I normally run.....AAMOF, that's exactly what the engineers wanted me to do.

 

The RR's were used in the 3 hour enduro that evening (not sure which compound, likely both but I'm not positive), but I don't know what the outcome was regarding longevity. Testing involved an SM, a 944, my car, and an AI car. It was a very interesting day, and I was quite tired (ha!) at the end.

 

For those "doubters" (DL and MFW) - I can tell you, honestly, from my discussions with the NASA and Toyo folks in the days leading up to testing, during the day of testing, and that weekend......they (particularly NASA) had no desire to repeat the previous R888 tire-change clusterfuck. It was very much at the forefront of their minds.

[Glenn]

So will we know if we can run on the RRs before next season? I'm so sick of shaving ra1s and the tire itself for that matter.

They don't even make a size that fits our wheels yet.

 

Sure they do, Adam tested them. They don't advertise them yet.

[CMC#11]

So will we know if we can run on the RRs before next season? I'm so sick of shaving ra1s and the tire itself for that matter.

They don't even make a size that fits our wheels yet.

 

Sure they do, Adam tested them. They don't advertise them yet.

I'm sorry Glenn, I incorrectly stated my comment.

It was in reference to what Al posted earlier:

"275 rrs won't be available until summer 2013 so at earliest it'd be a 2014 change for us. It could be much later."

[Glenn]

So will we know if we can run on the RRs before next season? I'm so sick of shaving ra1s and the tire itself for that matter.

They don't even make a size that fits our wheels yet.

 

Sure they do, Adam tested them. They don't advertise them yet.

I'm sorry Glenn, I incorrectly stated my comment.

It was in reference to what Al posted earlier:

"275 rrs won't be available until summer 2013 so at earliest it'd be a 2014 change for us. It could be much later."

 

Right, they are not available for purchase yet. But they obviously have the molds and can make them.

Since it is pretty late in the game to require us to switch for 2013, Al's statement holds water that we will likey see a 2014 switch at best...... if we switch.

[Adam Ginsberg]

I inadvertently left out the fact that I tested a set of 275.35.18 RR's, not a set of 17's.

 

My apologies for the confusion.

 

And, before there's a big uproar over the fact that I didn't test on a 17", CMC legal tire.....having run the 275/17 RA1, then moving to a fresh set of 275/18 RA1's within a ~45min period, there was only a small difference between the 2 tires. The one small item I noticed was slightly better turn-in characteristics on the 18", likely a product of the shorter sidewall.

 

Beyond that, they behaved the same.

[Glenn]

I inadvertently left out the fact that I tested a set of 275.35.18 RR's, not a set of 17's.

 

My apologies for the confusion.

 

And, before there's a big uproar over the fact that I didn't test on a 17", CMC legal tire.....having run the 275/17 RA1, then moving to a fresh set of 275/18 RA1's within a ~45min period, there was only a small difference between the 2 tires. The one small item I noticed was slightly better turn-in characteristics on the 18", likely a product of the shorter sidewall.

 

Beyond that, they behaved the same.

 

Thanks Adam. I saw the same improvement going from 16's to 17's.

[Al F.]

The good news is there will be plenty of (admittedly light) cars running these well before we have a chance to even progress testing. We should have a good indication of expected lap time gain, cycle resistance, and overall durability by then. It'll be a fun summer!

[wastntim]

17's are supposed to be available as well. Not sure when, however.

 

.

 

I heard a rumor and this post seems to intially backup that rumor that 17's will be available but that they may not make 16's. As I understand it, it sounds like CMC represents a fair percentage of all of the 255's sold in the states! That being said, it is rumored that TOYO wont' even make 16's in the RR tire.

 

If this is the case, CMC will need to let us know ASAP if they are definitely going to do the switch and when because running 17's at this point on my car, a third gen, will require some doing or some expensive rims.

[Al F.]

No rumor. Summer of 2013, as I posted on page 1

[dtisinger]

Al, we have had this discussion about 16 inch wheels.........This will kill the 3rd gens because there are no reasonible priced (safe) wheels for our cars in 17 or 18 inch wheels. We would have to build custom wheels $$$$. I hope the directors really lobby Toyo to produce a 16 inch tire. If they don't, this will be another nail in the coffin for CMC, at least here in California.

[Smike]

I run (and a few other SN95s) 16in wheels as well.

[nape1548534725]

Al, we have had this discussion about 16 inch wheels.........This will kill the 3rd gens because there are no reasonible priced (safe) wheels for our cars in 17 or 18 inch wheels. We would have to build custom wheels $$$$. I hope the directors really lobby Toyo to produce a 16 inch tire. If they don't, this will be another nail in the coffin for CMC, at least here in California.

 

Get adapters and run 17" 4th gen or Corvette wheels. If it's a "safety thing", I've been running them on my AI car for 5 seasons and at Nationals I had 1" of spacers stacked on top of the rear ones on my car after I pulled in ARP studs. On the front, I had a 2-1/4" adapter and 3/4" worth of spacers to run the 18" 'vette Mag wheels. The wheel bearing doesn't know any difference other then having a wheel with the correct offset.

 

There's your cheap solution.

[MHISSTC]

Get adapters...

I've been running them on my AI car for 5 seasons and at Nationals I had 1" of spacers stacked on top of the rear ones on my car after I pulled in ARP studs. On the front, I had a 2-1/4" adapter and 3/4" worth of spacers to run the 18" 'vette Mag wheels. The wheel bearing doesn't know any difference other then having a wheel with the correct offset.

 

That's exactly something I've been wondering about myself, but didn't know anybody with any first hand experience with them. I was shying away from them, but they could make our lives much easier and cheaper than going through the effort of setting up an entirely new SN95 length rear axle and swapping it with our fox length rear axle just to widen the rear track width.

 

Do you have a preference on brand?

 

Do you use ARP lug studs on the factory hub to hold the spacer on along with the longer ones in the spacer itself to hold the wheel on?

 

If so, do you use an OEM length lug stud in the factory hub to hold the spacer on?

 

I've never actually looked to see if ARP made anything other than the extra length lug studs.

[Adam Ginsberg]

Al, we have had this discussion about 16 inch wheels.........This will kill the 3rd gens because there are no reasonible priced (safe) wheels for our cars in 17 or 18 inch wheels.

 

To be clear - there is NO discussion about moving CMC to an 18 inch rim/tire combo.

 

Let's be more careful about posting stuff, as we don't want drivers, and/or potential drivers, confused.

 

That said.....Derek, can't you discuss this with the folks at Spin Werks already making your 16" wheels? I'm sure they can make a 17" wheel to the specs you need without much difficulty, and I can't see it costing much more than you've been spending on your custom made 16's.

 

That's exactly something I've been wondering about myself, but didn't know anybody with any first hand experience with them. I was shying away from them, but they could make our lives much easier and cheaper than going through the effort of setting up an entirely new SN95 length rear axle and swapping it with our fox length rear axle just to widen the rear track width.

 

You don't need to swap the entire rear axle assembly (housing) - just the axles themselves to get a wider rear track. Replacement rear axles are not expensive, even if you get Mosers ($275 a pair on their website).

 

For the Fox chassis, use 1994-1998 rear axles. 1999-2004 are a bit too wide, IMO.

 

Do you have a preference on brand?

 

Do you use ARP lug studs on the factory hub to hold the spacer on along with the longer ones in the spacer itself to hold the wheel on?

 

If so, do you use an OEM length lug stud in the factory hub to hold the spacer on?

 

I've never actually looked to see if ARP made anything other than the extra length lug studs.

 

Frankly, the only axle studs I've ever used on the racecar are ARP, and they are all 3". You want as much thread as possible, particularly if you want to run spacers.

 

I'm very fortunate they are only ~6mi from my house.

Edited September 12, 2012 by Guest

[MHISSTC]

Frankly, the only axle studs I've ever used on the racecar are ARP, and they are all 3". You want as much thread as possible, particularly if you want to run spacers.

 

Absolutely. Same here. We have also used the spacers that slide onto the longer studs. But what I'm more interested in finding out is what brand and length stud is being used to hold the spacer (which contains it's own set of 3" long ARP lug studs) onto the OEM hub.

 

Like these:

 

[ShadowBolt]

Frankly, the only axle studs I've ever used on the racecar are ARP, and they are all 3". You want as much thread as possible, particularly if you want to run spacers.

 

Absolutely. Same here. We have also used the spacers that slide onto the longer studs. But what I'm more interested in finding out is what brand and length stud is being used to hold the spacer (which contains it's own set of 3" long ARP lug studs) onto the OEM hub.

 

Like these:

 

 

I have these on the rear of my SN99. I bought the car with them already installed from Tony G. I don't know the brand of the studs that hold these on but you have to cut them off flush with the outside of the spacer. I've been running these for three years.

 

 

JJ

[MHISSTC]

I have these on the rear of my SN99.

 

I don't know the brand of the studs that hold these on but you have to cut them off flush with the outside of the spacer. I've been running these for three years.

 

So then the next question is, would it be a bad thing if I used ARP lug studs to hold these spacers on the OEM hub and then cut them to the required length?

[ShadowBolt]

I have these on the rear of my SN99.

 

I don't know the brand of the studs that hold these on but you have to cut them off flush with the outside of the spacer. I've been running these for three years.

 

So then the next question is, would it be a bad thing if I used ARP lug studs to hold these spacers on the OEM hub and then cut them to the required length?

 

It's working for me. I can't see how cutting them would be an issue.

 

JJ

[Glenn]

Try not to get them too hot when you cut them. You can ruin the heat treat.

[suck fumes1548534743]

Why don't you just buy the standard spacers that dont bolt on and just slide over the new studs you are installing?

[MHISSTC]

Why don't you just buy the standard spacers that dont bolt on and just slide over the new studs you are installing?

 

We did that and the long ARP 3" studs aren't long enough to accommodate the width of spacers needed to get a fox length axle out to the max width...even with our 17 x 9.5 MB Old School test wheel that has only a 6mm offset. The offset of those wheels was perfect in the front to not need any spacers with the SN95 suspension parts, but the spokes hit the Cobra caliper and we don't have any more track width available to add spacers up front. (See the pictures in this link) The new 17 x 9.5 MB Battles we purchased have a more favorable spoke shape to accommodate the disc brake calipers on the front and the greater positive offset (15mm) allows us to add spacers in the front too. However, now we need even more spacers than we did with our test wheel in order to get the rear axle out where it needs to be.

[Adam Ginsberg]

Scott - spoke relief can definitely be a problem with various wheels. If you're having caliper-clearance trouble with the MB Old School rims on standard Cobra calipers, it won't get any better if/when you decide to move to 4-pots.

 

The Battles have gads of spoke relief, and will bolt over my StopTech's without any issues at all. I haven't tested the Weapons, but plan to at BW.

 

Hate to say it, but you may have made the wrong rim choice (at a minimum, the wrong offset choice). I'm not a fan of the spacer adapters, even tho many use them.

 

I will say, though, I really, really like the look of the Old School rims! That deep-dish, polished lip is quite sexy.

[BADVENM]

Hi Adam, I only purchased 1 of the Old School wheels to test fit. I now have 4 of the MB Battles and they will work just fine.

 

The Old School wheel is definately pimpin, too nice and shiny for The Pumpkin.

 

Edited for correct wheel name.

Edited September 12, 2012 by Guest

[MHISSTC]

The Battles have gads of spoke relief...

 

Hate to say it, but you may have made the wrong rim choice...

 

I will say, though, I really, really like the look of the Old School rims! That deep-dish, polished lip is quite sexy.

 

I wholeheartedly agree with you on all of those points.

 

As Dave indicated, he bought only one of the MB Old School wheels so we could test fit it on the car with a worn out 17" 275 RA1. That wheel was just too cheap and too cool not to at least try it out. IF I had decided to use the old BAER A-Sedan spindles and fox control arms on my own car, I think I could have gotten away with using them with a set of spacers to clear the front calipers. But since I finally decided to go with the SN95 parts like Dave has on his car (it just makes more sense), the MB Old School simply won't work.

 

Those wheels are cool enough that I'm still trying to find some excuse to use it and buy three more just like it for another one of my vehicles. The problem is I really don't have anything they'd fit properly. I do have a Lincoln Mark VII LSC and an Aerostar van out back... ...hmmmmmm?????.