7) Allow threaded spring adjusters on all four corners, all

[D Algozine]

Ok, I'm one of the last to the table, but I've just got to know. Whats the inside scoop?....What really is the deal with this adjustable ride height deal?

 

As a child did one of the directors pinch their fingers in screw type adjuster?

 

Or, does someone have one of those reoccurring weird dreams, where your running through your high school, late for class, naked and you cant remember your locker number? Only the hallway is a garage and the locker number is the height of your left front, and you cant remember how many turns of the screw it's supposed to be.

 

I mean really, it's pretty comical to listen to the explanations.

Make your own from scratch......its more fun

Have a buddy make them for you.............

Cut springs............its a great time, especially if you cut one too short

The cost........how much do you spend on gas for racing and towing in one weekend, ever go out to dinner, other then Mickey D's?

The slippery slope.......watch out, Penske triple adjustables will be legal next

Rub to sticks together......no that can't be right......we already have matches for that But rubbing two sticks together is cheaper ??

 

Just having some fun.........I hope I didn't offend

 

 

Edit: I cant bring myself to add another post...so I added it here.

 

What does a test day cost? I mean the actual day: gas, your time, brake pads, were and tear on the car,etc...

 

I"ve heard several talk about testing. But a couple hundred for piece that will allow a 5 minute adjustment at the track is just too much.

Of course a dream day would be:

Adjusting my suspesion with a twist of my wrist..............during a test day

Edited October 24, 2012 by Guest

[soundguydave1548534741]

Ok, I'm one of the last to the table, but I've just got to know. Whats the inside scoop?....What really is the deal with this adjustable ride height deal?

 

As a child did one of the directors pinch their fingers in screw type adjuster?

 

 

Thanks, Dave, you just made me spew Coke all over my keyboard...

[wastntim]

I mean really, it's pretty comical to listen to the explanations.

Make your own from scratch......its more fun

Have a buddy make them for you.............

Cut springs............its a great time, especially if you cut one too short

The cost........how much do you spend on gas for racing and towing in one weekend, ever go out to dinner, other then Mickey D's?

The slippery slope.......watch out, Penske triple adjustables will be legal next

 

Dave is exactly right. I bought perches for my car last year and they were $400 and that included fronts and backs, because they don't sell just the fronts. Yet, on an average weekend, I probably spend $### or more one entry fees, gas, brake pads, tires and other consumables. (I hope my wife doesn't see this post )

 

So we are talking about a one-time $400 expenditure compared to an annual race budget that is probably $#,### (Ok, really, if the wife sees this this is going to be a third gen for sale...cheap ) The point is, let's make sure we are arguing something that is worthwhile, not a $400 spring perch.

 

****edited to protect my racing $ per bob's suggestion below***

Edited October 26, 2012 by Guest

[Den341548534727]

OK Robert, you made your point so edit the post and strike it from the record.......

[suck fumes1548534743]

Is there even a company that offers just spring perches for late fords? I've only found em for the rear but not the front.

[37Stang]

Is there even a company that offers just spring perches for late fords? I've only found em for the rear but not the front.

 

When you say "late Fords" are you speaking of the S197?

[bluebandit48]

Is there even a company that offers just spring perches for late fords? I've only found em for the rear but not the front.

 

First post in this topic says the fronts will be coil overs.. (threaded sleeves over your shocks)

[suck fumes1548534743]

99-04

[wastntim]

Is there even a company that offers just spring perches for late fords? I've only found em for the rear but not the front.

 

First post in this topic says the fronts will be coil overs.. (threaded sleeves over your shocks)

 

The actual proposed rule change was simply

 

"Allow threaded spring adjusters on all four corners, all platforms"

 

I know the coilovers got thrown into this but that is not what is stated above. I think the proposed rule is simply about adding the adjustability of the spring heights on all four corners.

 

Once again, we already have the ability to have ajustable perches in the front (as long as they are fixed in place). We can also change the spring heights through cutting springs or fabricating 5 sets of different different spacers. So the question is not about whether we can change heights or cornerweight, because we already can under the rules. The only question is about the way in which this can be accomplished.

 

IMHO the rules currently benefit the guys with fabrication skills and tools that make different ways to adjust the ride height with spacers. I don't have those fabrication skills so for me to have five sets of spacers, I have to pay someone to make them. So exactly how is this better than me being able to install a threaded spacer in the rear?

 

The other issue is that if we have the adjusters, we should be able to use them. I know guys say they don't want to have to have guys changing ride heights or cornerweighting inbetween races, but again THAT IS ALREADY HAPPENING. Guys change rear springs all the time in between races and add spacers.

 

So what exactly is at stake with adopiting this rule change? First, we may actually level the playing field a bit between the guys with fabrication skills and the guys without. Second, we give everyone the ability to make their lives a lot easier because instead of trying to cut a rubber spacer with a bandsaw (something I would never attempt) they can take a wrench and make an adjustment.

 

What exactly do we have to lose?

[MHISSTC]

So, just to be clear, if "threaded spring adjusters on all four corners, all platforms" is allowed without also bringing coil-overs into the mix, these type of fixed length adjustable lower rear control arm would be allowed:

 

 

...in addition to the potentially double-adjustable lower rear control arms, as long as the center-to-center bolt distance is specified, which is the focus of another RCR:

 

[D Algozine]

What exactly do we have to lose?

 

Robert, Here's my conclusions:

 

Directors are trying to keep additional parts and modifications to an absolute minimum, in an effort to keep costs down, which I feel is good and one of the major premises of the class.

However, it appears certain controversial items have been approved over the years, depending on your point of view, this is good or bad for the class. So other, minor and relatively inexpensive items have become HOT buttons. These are items that apparently get discussed regularly, but haven't been approved.

 

So, here in lies the issue. Changes have been made during recent years, I assume lines were drawn and battles were fought. However, these more simple, less impact (performance) items don't get the support to warrant " a change". As it appears, "change" is mostly perceived as not necessary.

 

But.....some would, and have argued that these items are in fact cost and time savings, but others obviously disagree.

 

Example: who could get fired up enough to vote "NO" for a cover? As a racer, who could care about the type of cover that has been approved? I can't imagine its truly about a cover. There is more to it. It may be a matter of principle, or some imaginary line drawn in the sand, or some other issue. Same for a simple adjuster.

 

The question has been raised previoiusly, is CMC a stock class or cost containment class? Looks like both, depending on the issue, and walking the fine line between both gets blurred and complicated to manage.

[D Algozine]

So, just to be clear, if "threaded spring adjusters on all four corners, all platforms" is allowed without also bringing coil-overs into the mix, these type of fixed length adjustable lower rear control arm would be allowed:

 

 

...in addition to the potentially double-adjustable lower rear control arms, as long as the center-to-center bolt distance is specified, which is the focus of another RCR:

 

 

The above listed adjustable control arms are about $100 more per set, then the non-adjustable.

 

As another reference, these are $29 a piece

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/AFCO-Adjustable-Spring-Spacer,49203.html

[MHISSTC]

As another reference, these are $29 a piece

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/AFCO-Adjustable-Spring-Spacer,49203.html

 

Initially, that looks like a good solution. But, after looking at the description of that and other other ones at Speedway, I saw that all the descriptions say to trim and adjust them as needed and then spot weld them. Do they not stay put once adjusted? If needed, how do you re-adjust them once you've spot welded them? I could see that as a drawback that may make the control arms with adjustable perches more attractive.

[D Algozine]

As another reference, these are $29 a piece

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/AFCO-Adjustable-Spring-Spacer,49203.html

 

Initially, that looks like a good solution. But, after looking at the description of that and other other ones at Speedway, I saw that all the descriptions say to trim and adjust them as needed and then spot weld them. Do they not stay put once adjusted? If needed, how do you re-adjust them once you've spot welded them? I could see that as a drawback that may make the control arms with adjustable perches more attractive.

 

I've never had them move. But as insurance, there are several simple solutions to lock the thread.

[Glenn]

The question has been raised previoiusly, is CMC a stock class or cost containment class? Looks like both, depending on the issue, and walking the fine line between both gets blurred and complicated to manage.

 

It is both. A cost contaiment class designed to use as many stock parts as possible.

Some rules are stillin place from a time where CMC was more about stock.

Some things were added based on safety or long term cost savings (or both). There are also platform pairity allowances as well. That further clouds the water. This where a knowlege of the history of CMC come into play. We want some things to be hard cause we don't want it to be easy to do, for example - make between qual/R1/R2 adjustments like this in the short time there is between those sessions on track. Not everyone wants to wrench on the car between sessions in order to run up front. If it proves to be too much work, they will stay home and car count dropping will be the result. It takes the "at track" fun out of it. When it isn't fun, the class suffers as a whole.

[D Algozine]

The question has been raised previoiusly, is CMC a stock class or cost containment class? Looks like both, depending on the issue, and walking the fine line between both gets blurred and complicated to manage.

 

It is both. A cost contaiment class designed to use as many stock parts as possible.

Some rules are stillin place from a time where CMC was more about stock.

Some things were added based on safety or long term cost savings (or both). There are also platform pairity allowances as well. That further clouds the water. This where a knowlege of the history of CMC come into play. We want some things to be hard cause we don't want it to be easy to do, for example - make between qual/R1/R2 adjustments like this in the short time there is between those sessions on track. Not everyone wants to wrench on the car between sessions in order to run up front. If it proves to be too much work, they will stay home and car count dropping will be the result. It takes the "at track" fun out of it. When it isn't fun, the class suffers as a whole.

 

I was with you in the beginning part of this reply, but then you lost me.

 

Racers are already making adjustments in between sessions and some make huge changes to try and get faster. What competitive racer would NOT make a few small adjustments throughout the course of a race weekend to improve their performance. Doesn't everyone have to check/bleed brakes, and possibly swap pads,rotors, tires.etc... general maintenance? If your not doing it, or not even thinking about doing it, then you're likely not concerned with your best performance, which I'm going to assume that most are in W2W because they want to compete.

 

If cost and ease of operation is the issue, then this still doesn't make any sense. Most racers don't have the time and money to go testing, so a race weekend also is their only chance to make changes, and adjustments to improve their performance. I'm sure that's the case for nearly all club racers and especially true of less expensive classes (CMC). So, in a sense, discouraging adjustments at the track favors those who have the time and budget to go test.

 

I don't know about other regions but at Midwest CMC race weekends guys are regularly discussing improvements, making adjustments, fixing broken stuff, such as rear end swaps, transmission swaps, head gaskets, etc....not to mention spring changes, sway bar changes, so a few twists to raise or lower the car are well within the scope of "wrenching" in a typical weekend.

Again, this is not one of those "have to have" deals.

[Glenn]

Racers are already making adjustments in between sessions and some make huge changes to try and get faster. What competitive racer would NOT make a few small adjustments throughout the course of a race weekend to improve their performance. Doesn't everyone have to check/bleed brakes, and possibly swap pads,rotors, tires.etc... general maintenance? If your not doing it, or not even thinking about doing it, then you're likely not concerned with your best performance, which I'm going to assume that most are in W2W because they want to compete.

 

Small changes - yes.

I don't ever have to check/bleed my brakes during the weekend. I'll swap rotors when I crack one (very very rare). I check pads at home. If they don't look like they will last the weekend, I'll change them. If I have to, I'll swap them Sat night, not Sat between R1 and R2. I normally run the tires I have on the car when I show up. I never rotate during the weekend. This has been the case w/ me since I started in 2005. Nationals was a little different. I had tires for qual and tires for qual races and tires for the big show.

Back on track...

Changes that require the use of scales is not what I call a small change. If your making corner weight changes w/out scales, why are you even making them?

[Glenn]

If cost and ease of operation is the issue, then this still doesn't make any sense. Most racers don't have the time and money to go testing, so a race weekend also is their only chance to make changes, and adjustments to improve their performance. I'm sure that's the case for nearly all club racers and especially true of less expensive classes (CMC). So, in a sense, discouraging adjustments at the track favors those who have the time and budget to go test.

 

Agree w/ this statement. Not sure why opening up the rules doesn't do the same thing. Then it will be those w/ large dedicated crews who have an advantage.

 

But do all the testing you want w/ all the money you want to spend. The rules are going to make it hard to make those same type adjustments learned from testing quickly between rounds. Keeps everyone on more of a "run what you brung" level.

[Glenn]

I don't know about other regions but at Midwest CMC race weekends guys are regularly discussing improvements, making adjustments, fixing broken stuff, such as rear end swaps, transmission swaps, head gaskets, etc....not to mention spring changes, sway bar changes, so a few twists to raise or lower the car are well within the scope of "wrenching" in a typical weekend.

Again, this is not one of those "have to have" deals.

 

We here also share info about set-up and what does and does not work. Fixing stuff is part of racing. Not sure why that is relevant.

I too change springs and sway bars. So why add another part to the car that could consume more of your time that couldbe hanging out w/ your fellow racers eating and drinking or helping a fellow racer do a trans swap.

Its not that any of the Directors think it is ourside the typical scope of wrenching, but rather they don't want to add another "to do" to the list.

 

And all it takes for something to become a "must have" is to put it on cars that are already winning.

[wastntim]

Glenn

All I can say is it sounds like things in the Midwest/Great Lakes are way more competitive than by you guys. Around here guys are generally trying to do whatever they can to get to the front. It sounds like you guys basically drop the car at the track and run. Guys around here are pretty intent on getting to the front and getting faster. It sounds like you guys are basically running HPDE. Our guys are changing springs, sway bars, tires, working on brakes, changing alignments and this is just the normal stuff.

 

If turning a wrench on an adjustable perch is too much work, why bother racing?

 

I'm not being critical, I'm just saying it sounds like the approach you guys take is WAY more laid back then I'm used to.

[suck fumes1548534743]

Couldn't have set it any better. But why should everyone else suffer just because some people are lazy and don't want to improve throughout the weekend. I don't know anyone including myself who has ever just dropped their car off and just left it alone. That's almost comical to me. We spend a lot of money going to the races...traveling, tires etc. Why the heck would you not even at least try to improve the car if it wasn't very good out of the box???

[Glenn]

Glenn

All I can say is it sounds like things in the Midwest/Great Lakes are way more competitive than by you guys. Around here guys are generally trying to do whatever they can to get to the front. It sounds like you guys basically drop the car at the track and run. Guys around here are pretty intent on getting to the front and getting faster. It sounds like you guys are basically running HPDE. Our guys are changing springs, sway bars, tires, working on brakes, changing alignments and this is just the normal stuff.

 

If turning a wrench on an adjustable perch is too much work, why bother racing?

 

I'm not being critical, I'm just saying it sounds like the approach you guys take is WAY more laid back then I'm used to.

 

Your POV of Texas racing could not be more wrong.

We are all trying to get faster. But w/ 4 races per weekend (7 sessions total), there just is very limited time. I do my wrenching in the garage. I am known for having one of, if not the, most reliable CMC car in Texas. I finally had a bad weekend after 8 years due to a failing opti. Lots of guys work on their cars all weekend, and I bet the last thing they need is another adjustment point on the car to have to/ need to mess w/.

 

And just a little info about myself in case you don't know. I've never in 4 years of Nationals (the 1st 4 years NASA held a National event) finished below 3rd. That is to include Mid Ohio where I finished 3rd (out of 23 cars!) my first time there and my 2nd year of CMC w/ no previous racing prior to 2005. I've held track records all over the Texas region. Any year where I ran a full season (2005-2009), I've never finished below 5th in season points. But your welcome to meet us at Hallett and show us how to do it. I've been tracking 4th gens since 1999. I'm well versed in what needs to be done and how to keep them dependable on track. I putmy time in at home and have no real need to wrench at the track.

[Glenn]

Couldn't have set it any better. But why should everyone else suffer just because some people are lazy and don't want to improve throughout the weekend. I don't know anyone including myself who has ever just dropped their car off and just left it alone. That's almost comical to me. We spend a lot of money going to the races...traveling, tires etc. Why the heck would you not even at least try to improve the car if it wasn't very good out of the box???

 

I didn't say I didn't try to improve the car. I change air pressures as needed, wheel spacers, sway bars when needed. I've even raised and lowered the rear of the car if needed. I still don't think adjustable spring perches are needed. Keep it simple.

Want to work your ass off at the track and prove that your smarter than everyone else, sounds like AI is for you. CMC is more of a drivers class. I would wantto keep it as much of that as possible. Lets keep the wallets out of it.

 

At this point, you guys just don't get it and I'm not sure if you will. One day you might. I didn't at first, so don't feel bad.

 

It was good having the back and forth w/ you guys. Find another Director who will do it w/ you. Seems your goal is to talk down to me as though I'm crazy cause I don't want to race hard or get faster. You have no idea who I am and what I'm about. I've been accused many a time as a guy who races too hard and will win at all cost. Funny how it seems to have come full circle.

[wastntim]

Glenn,

 

I specifically said I was not trying to be critical but when you talk about making it hard to make normal adjustments, I am confused. It's not like these changes are not already being made at the track. I guess one of the biggest differences is that we only race once per day. That means we have a lot of down time. Idle time means lots of time for adjustments.

 

I don't know you and I've only been in Cmc for three years but I can tell you EVERYBODY around here spends their time at the track trying to go faster, even the guys out front.

 

I appreciate the fact that we can openly discuss our different views. I was not saying you are not fast. You are probably faster than me but that is exactly why I'm trying to go faster by having the ability to make adjustments

Edited November 1, 2012 by Guest

[CMC#11]

First off, I think the adjustable spring perches is the most logical and still an extremely cheap thing to do to help equalize the platforms. It gives everyone the opportunity to have the exact same adjustability.

 

Now in regards to making adjustments at the track, that can be viewed both ways.

I have raced my car for 7 years and used 3 different shock packages, 5 different spring packages, messed w/ sway bars, track width, tire pressures, camber, etc more than most. That being said, I think I have a good feel for how the car needs to be setup for each track in TX. Just b/c I don't make huge changes to the car during an event in no way means I am not trying to get the most out of my car.

I completely agree that there are subtle changes that need to be addressed potentially after every session but there is a fine line b/w an adjustment and flat out missing the setup.

 

Bottom line, I feel if you want to wrench on the car (change ride height, etc) between sessions, that should be fine. If you want to eat a sandwich and take a nap, that's cool too.