Nationals - 2013

[Sidney]

Yeah, the infamous hole in the dash rule. Maybe next year we can get a memo before Nationals that specifies what's important (HP/Tq/wt), and what's not (everything else). Seems there's a few people that might have issues with that kind of tech scrutiny (everyone who's been DQ'ed for something other than dyno breakout).

 

I think the "What's Not Important" is how you guys were getting beat by 2 to 3 seconds a lap all week. The car that beat you was tweeked to the Nth degree (think SM type tweeking). If those Rules/Loopholes/Gray areas are not important...then the cost to race CMC just went way up.

 

Sidney

(DQ'd from 2011 Nationals race due to Brake Duct/Air Dam too low.)

 

p.s. Glenn...you'll have a PM soon.

[MHISSTC]

Aaron and crew have a beautifully prepped car (except for the missing glove box door ), and Aaron drove extremely well during the whole event and they all deserve the credit and accolades that go along with being the CMC National Champion.

 

Period.

 

That said, I will continue to explore the wheel weight rules issue in another thread.

 

EDIT: Added link to the thread.

 

http://www.camaromustangchallenge.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=38112#38112

Edited September 9, 2013 by Guest

[BADVENM]

Aaron, what kind of Enkei wheel were you running? Was it was 17x9 Enkei RPF-1?

 

Thanks.

[MHISSTC]

Aaron, what kind of Enkei wheel were you running? Was it was 17x9 Enkei RPF-1?

 

Thanks.

 

go to the other thread for further discussion on this

[suck fumes1548534743]

For the record my dash was all covered Friday afternoon.

[koserv]

It is certainly every competitors right to prep their car to the absolute letter of the rules. If you are comfortable running 0.00% from the line, then go for it. Aaron, from what little I could see, and probably proven by the wheel weight thing, had that car right at the limit, and boy did it show. My issues aren’t with someone prepping to 100.00%, it’s with how the limits are enforced. Regionally, we make allowances/exceptions all the time. The glove-box thing is a case in point. Most regions don’t enforce it and couldn’t care less. Also, for an item like that, making a call pre-race at Nationals to make an exception is clearly within the purview of the officials. They made that call this year. None of us made a stink about it. Done deal. No problems. I also don’t have much (some, but not much) problem with post race “fix it†items that are not performance related (the lexan side windows from a couple years ago). But…if you’re going to put a hard number in the rule book, then you’d better be prepared to check it properly, understand the rule, and enforce it accordingly. Conversely, if you’re a competitor running at 100.00% of a number delineated rule, you’d better understand what criteria are used to scrutinize, and that over the line is over the line. Period. Aaron’s wheels are getting a lot of attention, but the bottom line is the race officials found them compliant, and there were no protests. Done deal. I’ve been using them to make my points and, in my sleep deprived state Sunday, it just didn’t make any sense to me that competitors are required to file paperwork to get the officials to understand the rules and to do their jobs properly. After a full night’s sleep, it still doesn’t.

[BADVENM]

Well said Kent. Was "our" official Ed a CMC driver? He mentioned he was from the southeast region but I don't know what he does down there.

 

Tech is only doing what "our" officials tell them to do (what to tech, etc). Is it "our" officials that make the final call as to whether a teched item passes or fails or is it the head of tech? Tech doesn't carry around a rulebook for each race class so I would think it would be up to "our" official or representative. Like you said, it was different in that the racers in CMC were telling the officals what was legal and what was not. Shouldn't be that way.

[nape1548534725]

Like you said, it was different in that the racers in CMC were telling the officals what was legal and what was not. Shouldn't be that way.

 

Hah, if I had a nickel...

 

This is supposed to be fun, This is supposed to be fun, This is supposed to be fun...

[ShadowBolt]

Aaron is just good! Even without a car tweaked to the 9th degree he would have won. Aaron has not won every race in Texas since going CMC (I hit him the first weekend and tore the hell out of his new car) but he has won a bunch of them. Watch his in-car videos from the first weekend at the track with the CMC car (except the one where I ran over him). He is not working like the rest of us. He looks like he is going to pick up a loaf of bread at the corner store. He is never fighting with the steering wheel like the rest of us do. Unless he has changed it up he is running 3:27's or something like that in the rear because he does not like to shift that often. You would think he would get killed by the guys running 3:55's and 4:10's but he does not. I know you guys don't want to hear this but Aarons car is not the reason he won Nationals. He would have won in my Hooptie! He is just that good. Wish it was me and not him but.........

 

JJ

[Adam Ginsberg]

Tech is only doing what "our" officials tell them to do (what to tech, etc). Is it "our" officials that make the final call as to whether a teched item passes or fails or is it the head of tech?

 

From my own experience as an RD and SD at the Nats, the tech'd items are decided and submitted to the NASA tech officials about a week prior to the event - sometimes sooner, sometimes a tad later. At least, that's how I've always done it. I don't know how/when it was done this year.

 

Tech does their job by scrutinizing and measuring what the RD and SD have given them to tech. If there is a questionable item, the RD and SD will make a final determination.

 

I can also tell you from too many years of experience that Todd will essentially pull some explanation out of his ass and provide an answer without looking in the rulebook. In most cases, when he does (you'd be very surprised to know how often it happens), he's wrong. It's bitten me in the ass, more than once. It is the #1 reason why I refuse to give a rules determination without having the rulebook in front of me.

 

Tech doesn't carry around a rulebook for each race class so I would think it would be up to "our" official or representative.

 

The tech officials don't "carry around" a rulebook. However, there is a very large binder in the tech impound area that has ALL of the rules for EVERY class, as well as the current NASA CCRs. NASA SoCal has those binders in impound, as does NASA NorCal. It's ALWAYS been there at the Nats. Competitors are welcome to view that binder any time. Although, the impound area of the Nats, particularly after the Championship race gets busy, hectic and crowded. Having your own rulebook in impound is highly recommended.

[Glenn]

Yeah, the infamous hole in the dash rule. Maybe next year we can get a memo before Nationals that specifies what's important (HP/Tq/wt), and what's not (everything else). Seems there's a few people that might have issues with that kind of tech scrutiny (everyone who's been DQ'ed for something other than dyno breakout).

 

 

Dude...... If the only rules we required to follow were HP/TQ/WT we would have a much different class. It would also be a much more exspensive class.

Take a minute and think about your comment and how someone can take advantage through the amount of money they are willing to spend to win. The goal in CMC is to take the $$ out of it.

[Glenn]

Yeah, the infamous hole in the dash rule. Maybe next year we can get a memo before Nationals that specifies what's important (HP/Tq/wt), and what's not (everything else). Seems there's a few people that might have issues with that kind of tech scrutiny (everyone who's been DQ'ed for something other than dyno breakout).

 

I think the "What's Not Important" is how you guys were getting beat by 2 to 3 seconds a lap all week. The car that beat you was tweeked to the Nth degree (think SM type tweeking). If those Rules/Loopholes/Gray areas are not important...then the cost to race CMC just went way up.

 

Sidney

(DQ'd from 2011 Nationals race due to Brake Duct/Air Dam too low.)

 

p.s. Glenn...you'll have a PM soon.

 

I once took as much advantage of pushing the limits as I could - as much as I could w/out spending alot of money. My car was well prep'ed. And for years (back when I was way more driven to win) I won alot of races. Did well at Nat's, did well in enduro's (won one by 1lb after 10 hrs). Attention to details makes up for a lack of tallent to some degree. Arron came from SM where that same prep level will likely only get you to the top 10-15. For the rest you need $$$ and skill. I'm sure it was the money part that made him leave. He has all the other factors to do well in CMC.

While he isn't here to "have fun" like most of us, don't look down upon him because he gives 100% effort.

[Glenn]

koserv - This one is for you....

 

My issues aren’t with someone prepping to 100.00%, it’s with how the limits are enforced.

You are 100% correct that the wrong call was made. Todd has done this before and will likely do it again. Keep in mind though that he stepped up and put himself in a position to have to make a call and subjected himself to the possibility of making the wrong one. Many of us here bitching about it would be willing to do it. I do it regionally and let me tell you, there is now winning. Not everyone would have been OK no matter which way Todd ruled. Since it seems it was easy to to make the wrong call, this points out that the rule needs to be clarified. Lets give it time to happen.

The issue last year w/ the control arms is a BS issue. The rules say stock length and do not require a printed measurment. If you have a 200X GM or Ford, then you need to find out what stock length is and be legal if your not using OEM arms. If the item is picked for a tech item, then someone other than the racer better have a number to use. That was a failure of the RD and not having the answers to the question he asked.

 

The lack of a protest is an issue as well. Once protested, the issue goes before a different Official. Likely resulting in phone calls to regional Directors and the National Director. My phone was on, but it did not ring. I could have give the correct info. If you feel there was a wrong call, file the paperwork. That is why it is in the rules - To help prevent a wrong call. So a protest should have been filed on the basis of the interpretation of the rule, but from what I know posted here, Arron would have likely still been legal. And you cannot assume otherwise.

[Glenn]

Tech is only doing what "our" officials tell them to do (what to tech, etc). Is it "our" officials that make the final call as to whether a teched item passes or fails or is it the head of tech?

 

From my own experience as an RD and SD at the Nats, the tech'd items are decided and submitted to the NASA tech officials about a week prior to the event - sometimes sooner, sometimes a tad later. At least, that's how I've always done it. I don't know how/when it was done this year.

 

Tech does their job by scrutinizing and measuring what the RD and SD have given them to tech. If there is a questionable item, the RD and SD will make a final determination.

 

I can also tell you from too many years of experience that Todd will essentially pull some explanation out of his ass and provide an answer without looking in the rulebook. In most cases, when he does (you'd be very surprised to know how often it happens), he's wrong. It's bitten me in the ass, more than once. It is the #1 reason why I refuse to give a rules determination without having the rulebook in front of me.

 

Tech doesn't carry around a rulebook for each race class so I would think it would be up to "our" official or representative.

 

The tech officials don't "carry around" a rulebook. However, there is a very large binder in the tech impound area that has ALL of the rules for EVERY class, as well as the current NASA CCRs. NASA SoCal has those binders in impound, as does NASA NorCal. It's ALWAYS been there at the Nats. Competitors are welcome to view that binder any time. Although, the impound area of the Nats, particularly after the Championship race gets busy, hectic and crowded. Having your own rulebook in impound is highly recommended.

 

Adam is 100% spot on here. Nice post!

[koserv]

Glenn, you misunderstand, or, more likely, I haven't been clear. Everything in the rules that has a number attached, or is called out as OEM, or has any performance impact to me is "important", and should be treated as such at all regional, and certainly at a national event. I personally think that ANY rule in the book should be enforced with equal weight. However, I do concede that running without a glove box cover probably isn't that big of deal. What I do think is a big deal is when the "important" rules get treated like the glove box. It makes me crazy when someone says "I was only off by a sixteenth". Makes me even crazier when the officials agree. My comment above was venting some if that frustration. If you get a DQ for being out 1/16", the only person you should be pissed at is yourself. As for the wheel weight, I've said above, and will clarify again, I'm pretty sure Aaron would have beat me had he been driving his pick-up. A couple ounces wasn't what made me look soooo slooooow. But, if your going to prep a car to 10/10ths, you run the risk of crossing the line, however inadvertently. My troubles weren't with Aaron, except for him being too damn fast. My troubles, as "dead horsed" above, are with how the actual rules didn't seem to be that important to our race officials. In retrospect, I'm actually glad he didn't get tossed for a couple ounces of lead, and concur that he'd probably have been OK.

 

Holly crap. I've spewed more shit here in two days than I have in 6 years. Time to shut the F up and get back out to the garage to get ready for the next race (How DID that punk kid get that old Stang to handle so well ? )

Edited September 9, 2013 by Guest

[CMC#11]

Tech is only doing what "our" officials tell them to do (what to tech, etc). Is it "our" officials that make the final call as to whether a teched item passes or fails or is it the head of tech?

 

From my own experience as an RD and SD at the Nats, the tech'd items are decided and submitted to the NASA tech officials about a week prior to the event - sometimes sooner, sometimes a tad later. At least, that's how I've always done it. I don't know how/when it was done this year.

 

Tech does their job by scrutinizing and measuring what the RD and SD have given them to tech. If there is a questionable item, the RD and SD will make a final determination.

 

I can also tell you from too many years of experience that Todd will essentially pull some explanation out of his ass and provide an answer without looking in the rulebook. In most cases, when he does (you'd be very surprised to know how often it happens), he's wrong. It's bitten me in the ass, more than once. It is the #1 reason why I refuse to give a rules determination without having the rulebook in front of me.

 

Tech doesn't carry around a rulebook for each race class so I would think it would be up to "our" official or representative.

 

The tech officials don't "carry around" a rulebook. However, there is a very large binder in the tech impound area that has ALL of the rules for EVERY class, as well as the current NASA CCRs. NASA SoCal has those binders in impound, as does NASA NorCal. It's ALWAYS been there at the Nats. Competitors are welcome to view that binder any time. Although, the impound area of the Nats, particularly after the Championship race gets busy, hectic and crowded. Having your own rulebook in impound is highly recommended.

 

Adam is 100% spot on here. Nice post!

I just took a screenshot of this post. I can't believe Adam and Glenn agreed on something!!!

[Glenn]

Glenn, you misunderstand, or, more likely, I haven't been clear. Everything in the rules that has a number attached, or is called out as OEM, or has any performance impact to me is "important", and should be treated as such at all regional, and certainly at a national event. I personally think that ANY rule in the book should be enforced with equal weight. However, I do concede that running without a glove box cover probably isn't that big of deal. What I do think is a big deal is when the "important" rules get treated like the glove box. It makes me crazy when someone says "I was only off by a sixteenth". Makes me even crazier when the officials agree. My comment above was venting some if that frustration. If you get a DQ for being out 1/16", the only person you should be pissed at is yourself. As for the wheel weight, I've said above, and will clarify again, I'm pretty sure Aaron would have beat me had he been driving his pick-up. A couple ounces wasn't what made me look soooo slooooow. But, if your going to prep a car to 10/10ths, you run the risk of crossing the line, however inadvertently. My troubles weren't with Aaron, except for him being too damn fast. My troubles, as "dead horsed" above, are with how the actual rules didn't seem to be that important to our race officials.

 

Holly crap. I've spewed more shit here in two days than I have in 6 years. Time to shut the F up and get back out to the garage to get ready for the next race (How DID that punk kid get that old Stang to handle so well ? )

 

I agree.

Call me sometime and we can talk. Phone number is on the last page of the rules.

 

This goes for any of our CMC racers anywhere in the country.

[Glenn]

Tech is only doing what "our" officials tell them to do (what to tech, etc). Is it "our" officials that make the final call as to whether a teched item passes or fails or is it the head of tech?

 

From my own experience as an RD and SD at the Nats, the tech'd items are decided and submitted to the NASA tech officials about a week prior to the event - sometimes sooner, sometimes a tad later. At least, that's how I've always done it. I don't know how/when it was done this year.

 

Tech does their job by scrutinizing and measuring what the RD and SD have given them to tech. If there is a questionable item, the RD and SD will make a final determination.

 

I can also tell you from too many years of experience that Todd will essentially pull some explanation out of his ass and provide an answer without looking in the rulebook. In most cases, when he does (you'd be very surprised to know how often it happens), he's wrong. It's bitten me in the ass, more than once. It is the #1 reason why I refuse to give a rules determination without having the rulebook in front of me.

 

Tech doesn't carry around a rulebook for each race class so I would think it would be up to "our" official or representative.

 

The tech officials don't "carry around" a rulebook. However, there is a very large binder in the tech impound area that has ALL of the rules for EVERY class, as well as the current NASA CCRs. NASA SoCal has those binders in impound, as does NASA NorCal. It's ALWAYS been there at the Nats. Competitors are welcome to view that binder any time. Although, the impound area of the Nats, particularly after the Championship race gets busy, hectic and crowded. Having your own rulebook in impound is highly recommended.

 

Adam is 100% spot on here. Nice post!

I just took a screenshot of this post. I can't believe Adam and Glenn agreed on something!!!

 

I was hacked!

[Glenn]

Seriously..... It should add alot of value to Adams post just by having me agree w/ it. Adam is right no matter how we feel about each other.

[Steve91T]

Dammit guys! Every year the same thing! All this bitching and moaning about how awesome/unfair it was and how horrible the rules are and how they have to change.

 

 

Post some videos so we have something to watch while you guys carry on!!!

[MHISSTC]

Post some videos so we have something to watch while you guys carry on!!!

 

Here you go:

http://www.camaromustangchallenge.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4441

[AllZWay]

Congrats to all you guys than ran nats.

Aaron definitely has a well prepped car and is a good driver. The combination makes it hard to beat.

 

 

Now... since we have seen it with our own eyes... F-bodies need some rules relief to be competitive.

[Den341548534727]

Dammit guys! Every year the same thing! All this bitching and moaning about how awesome/unfair it was and how horrible the rules are and how they have to change.

 

Steve, This is a good thing! It may not be pretty how the sausage is made but this is great dialog to properly vet the rules and make our annual improvements The nationals and this forum help us find the holes in the rules and continually improve the class for all regions.

Bob

[Steve91T]

I know, I was joking. I did want to see some videos though! It's something I really look forward to. And since its all about me.....

[CF03GT]

Congrats to the new CMC national champ! And to all the CMC'ers that made the event! From what i saw, all you guys represented well with close, exciting racing.. some of the best racing of the weekend. Good stuff guys.