RCR - engine choice

[Steve91T]

Maybe they'll restrict which year 5.3 is allowed. What about 4.8? I bet that'd make 260 rwhp. Those go for $500 or less out the door.

 

I can't imagine it's cost very much to swap to a 5.3. I could sell my engine for whatever I can get. Then sell the t56 for probably the same price as an LS t56. I know there's a little more to it than that, but I'd be willing to bet it wouldn't be much different than doing a swap. Plus, once the swap is done, if you need another engine, take your time and find another $500 5.3 and drop it in. No more crazy water pumps and opti's.

 

Do you know the ass pain I went through to find a set of stock exhaust manifolds? I could have bought a set of cheap headers for what I spent.

 

If I have a broken ring or something in this LT1, I'd see if I could get it repaired cheap and sell it for $1500.

[Dustin M.]

You couldn't just head to Autozone and buy some Dorman manifolds? As far as the head debate goes, it'd be easiest to dictate which casting numbers are acceptable. That's beyond easy to verify, but it seems to me you wouldn't be doing yourself any favors with an LS6-based headed engine, any advantage would just get choked back out with a smaller restrictor. I'm not seeing any advantage under the curve to be had either, but I'm new to this so I could be full of it.

[wastntim]

I just spent another full day at the track chasing a mysterious problem on my LT1. So far I've replaced the optispark, the coil, the ignition module, the fuel pump, the radiator and a host of other miscellaneous parts chasing a problem on my LT1 that causes it to begin to lose power after 20-25 minutes on track. Plus, I have been chasing this problem since the second weekend of the racing season.

 

A big part of the problem is that the OBD1 computer has such limited information and can really only be diagnosed with a laptop running datamaster. Had I had an LS1, I am sure I could have found this problem sooner or even been able to take it to a mechanic to figure out the problem but since it is an OBD1, I am out of luck. I've spent near a $1,000 on parts plus wasted $350 per weekend for the past 5 races only to not be able to finish a race. So I've spent $2,500+ on this "cost containment" class and my car is still not running correctly!

 

When is enough enough?

[Adam Ginsberg]

I'm going to put this out there so everyone can see it - the 3rd Gen cars have more engine choices than any other chassis in our series.

 

• 1. 305 TPI
  2. 305 Carb
  3. 350 Carb
  4. 350/LT1

 

Is adding the LS1 really what CMC is supposed to be about?? The LT1 never should have been permitted in the first place.

[Adam Ginsberg]

I sure hope the 5.3 will allowed. I'm not sure if my LT1 is hitting on all 8, and if it's not, I absolutely do not want to try to find another Fbody LT1 again. They are really hard to find.

 

I'm not trying to be a hard-ass here, but your statement about LT1's being hard to find is completely incorrect.

 

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_sacat=0&_nkw=lt1+engine&_frs=1

 

That was a ~10 second search on ebay. I haven't even looked on craigslist.

 

As I mentioned here last year, let's be accurate in our comments about items. LT1's and LS1's are NOT hard to find.

[Glenn]

I just spent another full day at the track chasing a mysterious problem on my LT1. So far I've replaced the optispark, the coil, the ignition module, the fuel pump, the radiator and a host of other miscellaneous parts chasing a problem on my LT1 that causes it to begin to lose power after 20-25 minutes on track. Plus, I have been chasing this problem since the second weekend of the racing season.

 

A big part of the problem is that the OBD1 computer has such limited information and can really only be diagnosed with a laptop running datamaster. Had I had an LS1, I am sure I could have found this problem sooner or even been able to take it to a mechanic to figure out the problem but since it is an OBD1, I am out of luck. I've spent near a $1,000 on parts plus wasted $350 per weekend for the past 5 races only to not be able to finish a race. So I've spent $2,500+ on this "cost containment" class and my car is still not running correctly!

 

When is enough enough?

 

 

This is a pretty weak argument.

Its not the series fault you can't fix your car. Obviously you don't have all the tools you need to fix what you have in a manner your OK with. Not something that should result in a rules change.

I have an OBD-1 LT1 and I too had similar issues. Did all the same stuff you did for a $10 water temp sender (the one that feeds the PCM). Leasons learned are often done the hard way. I consider myself a very competent mechanic as well. Took me and a few that helped at the track more than 3 weekends to fix it. 3 weekends is my whole season.

You have made this argument before and I've informed you that LT1's were made w/ OBD-II in 96-97. Should be pretty easy to swap this one over to OBD-II since its a very common swap for most guys to go from OBD-II to OBD-I. My bet is that would be significantly cheaper than an LS1 swap.

Availability of LT1's is a weak argument as well. They are out there. But you don't need a new LT1, you just need to fix the one you have.

I installed mine (an 80K junkyard pull) in a new CMC build in 2004. Ran it from 2005-2007. Rebuilt it in 2007 and have run it since w/ just a set of head gaskets in that time. My rebuild was $1700 completely assymbled ready to drop in. Your going to spend alot more than that on an LS1 motor. Keep in mind the 5.3 (if approved) will only supply the long block, you still need an LS1 to get all the other stuff from.

The phrase "cost containment" has nothing to do w/ your ability to fix a car. The rules shouldn't change to help you troubleshoot your car. If the LS1 is where you need to be, you should look towards getting a 4th gen. Otherwise, start looking for a carb.

 

As Adam posted, there are plenty of engine options for your platform. Pick one that fits your skill set and move on, or pick a platform that does.

FYI - I don't have any fancy software and a laptop to T/S my OBD-I LT1. I used a jumper wire to pull codes, and my understanding of fuel injection and a little luck to fix it.

[Glenn]

This no tuning thing is a concern of mine. Is the implication that you run the 5.3 on the 5.7's tune? Or do you have to swap the entire 5.3 harness in with? Though difficult to police, it is possible to change nothing but the displacement within the tune. Also, I only see the LS4 as being prohibited. Is the intent only to allow the 5.3 with LS1 based heads? Because the newer ones have LS6 based heads.

 

You will not need to change the tune. the 5.3 will require much less restriction that the 5.7. The 5.7 runs just fine pulled down to 260hp and the 5.3 will w/ the 5.7 pcm. There is no need to use the 5.3 harness as the 5.7 harness is the same. The blocks are identical except the c.i. displacement. No other changes.

 

Disclaimer - the 5.3 is not approved for use in the 4th gen at this time.

[Dustin M.]

How much power is it really losing? Not surprisingly, mine pulls harder at 180 than it does at 210, ECU pulls timing and may even add some fuel so yeah I lose power part way through too. I really doubt an OBDII system would tell you why you're losing power, and as has already been mentioned the LT1 was offered with OBDII, so I don't think troubleshooting diffuculty is that valid an argument. I can't see an LS1 swap being cheaper than OBDII'ing your LT1 which is a large part of your argument and very much in the spirit of CMC by my interpretation. Let's say it's your ECT, OBDII won't tell you your ECT is wrong, only if it's completely failed in an open/shorted state. 5.3s are cheap and plentiful, that should be argument enough if the whole engine location thing can be cheaply overcome and easily enforced.

[Glenn]

The ECT can also fail in way that it isn't reporting temps in a normal range but hasn't really failed. The range for this sensor to show up as a failure in the pcm is way wider than its normal opperating range.

 

It is a $10 part. Mine will get replaced often.

[Glenn]

The ECT can also fail in way that it isn't reporting temps in a normal range but hasn't really failed. The range for this sensor to show up as a failure in the pcm is way wider than its normal opperating range.

 

It is a $10 part. Mine will get replaced often.

[roadracerwhite]

I'm going to put this out there so everyone can see it - the 3rd Gen cars have more engine choices than any other chassis in our series.

 

• 1. 305 TPI
  2. 305 Carb
  3. 350 Carb
  4. 350/LT1

 

Is adding the LS1 really what CMC is supposed to be about?? The LT1 never should have been permitted in the first place.

 

As someone with experience with all of them, I can tell you there are only really 3 choices there. The TPI is a waste of time and money. You will be left spending a whole bunch of money for something which will make too much torque. You may have the only one in your region ever.

 

The LT1 is a great motor when it runs, but when it doesn't it sucks ass to diagnose. Without a computer there is no way to diagnose them. Glenn yours must be a 93 as those are the only ones I am aware of which can be shorted to produce a code if you have a 94 or 95 you have the joy of having an OBD II port with an OBD I computer, the new scanner won't read them and you cannot short the ports together.

[wastntim]

I just spent another full day at the track chasing a mysterious problem on my LT1. So far I've replaced the optispark, the coil, the ignition module, the fuel pump, the radiator and a host of other miscellaneous parts chasing a problem on my LT1 that causes it to begin to lose power after 20-25 minutes on track. Plus, I have been chasing this problem since the second weekend of the racing season.

 

A big part of the problem is that the OBD1 computer has such limited information and can really only be diagnosed with a laptop running datamaster. Had I had an LS1, I am sure I could have found this problem sooner or even been able to take it to a mechanic to figure out the problem but since it is an OBD1, I am out of luck. I've spent near a $1,000 on parts plus wasted $350 per weekend for the past 5 races only to not be able to finish a race. So I've spent $2,500+ on this "cost containment" class and my car is still not running correctly!

 

When is enough enough?

 

 

This is a pretty weak argument.

Its not the series fault you can't fix your car. Obviously you don't have all the tools you need to fix what you have in a manner your OK with. Not something that should result in a rules change.

I have an OBD-1 LT1 and I too had similar issues. Did all the same stuff you did for a $10 water temp sender (the one that feeds the PCM). Leasons learned are often done the hard way. I consider myself a very competent mechanic as well. Took me and a few that helped at the track more than 3 weekends to fix it. 3 weekends is my whole season.

You have made this argument before and I've informed you that LT1's were made w/ OBD-II in 96-97. Should be pretty easy to swap this one over to OBD-II since its a very common swap for most guys to go from OBD-II to OBD-I. My bet is that would be significantly cheaper than an LS1 swap.

Availability of LT1's is a weak argument as well. They are out there. But you don't need a new LT1, you just need to fix the one you have.

I installed mine (an 80K junkyard pull) in a new CMC build in 2004. Ran it from 2005-2007. Rebuilt it in 2007 and have run it since w/ just a set of head gaskets in that time. My rebuild was $1700 completely assymbled ready to drop in. Your going to spend alot more than that on an LS1 motor. Keep in mind the 5.3 (if approved) will only supply the long block, you still need an LS1 to get all the other stuff from.

The phrase "cost containment" has nothing to do w/ your ability to fix a car. The rules shouldn't change to help you troubleshoot your car. If the LS1 is where you need to be, you should look towards getting a 4th gen. Otherwise, start looking for a carb.

 

As Adam posted, there are plenty of engine options for your platform. Pick one that fits your skill set and move on, or pick a platform that does.

FYI - I don't have any fancy software and a laptop to T/S my OBD-I LT1. I used a jumper wire to pull codes, and my understanding of fuel injection and a little luck to fix it.

 

Thank you for judging my reasoning Glenn. It's always helpful to have you weigh in and tell everyone else they are wrong or they don't know what they are doing. If only we all had your vast knowledge there would be no problems left in the world.

 

First of all, it is not just me that cannot diagnose my engine problem. I have called around to dozens of shops in the Chicagoland area to find a mechanic that can diagnose the problem and have not found one that will work on the car. As soon as I tell them its OBI they say they can't help me.

 

Second, where in the rules does it say we can convert OBDI computers to OBDII? Does Texas have a different set of rules than the rest of the regions?

 

Using luck to find out what is wrong with my car does not sit real well when I am paying $350 for a weekend of racing only to find out the car is still not fixed.

 

There might be other options to run, but if they are worse than the LT1 then what good is that???

 

So what you are telling me is that since I have a car that was made a few years earlier, I do not get to run the same engine that the fourth gens can? And exactly how does that make the different generations equal? I guess it makes it even if you happen to own a fourth gen.

[wastntim]

The ECT can also fail in way that it isn't reporting temps in a normal range but hasn't really failed. The range for this sensor to show up as a failure in the pcm is way wider than its normal opperating range.

 

It is a $10 part. Mine will get replaced often.

 

Oh by the way, I replace that as well. It made no difference.

[wastntim]

How much power is it really losing? Not surprisingly, mine pulls harder at 180 than it does at 210, ECU pulls timing and may even add some fuel so yeah I lose power part way through too. I really doubt an OBDII system would tell you why you're losing power, and as has already been mentioned the LT1 was offered with OBDII, so I don't think troubleshooting diffuculty is that valid an argument. I can't see an LS1 swap being cheaper than OBDII'ing your LT1 which is a large part of your argument and very much in the spirit of CMC by my interpretation. Let's say it's your ECT, OBDII won't tell you your ECT is wrong, only if it's completely failed in an open/shorted state. 5.3s are cheap and plentiful, that should be argument enough if the whole engine location thing can be cheaply overcome and easily enforced.

 

After twenty minutes, the car will not go above 4,500 rpm in any gear. Generally, I would guess that it goes down to about 200hp or less.

 

If a LS1 is more costly, but more reliable, then it costs me less in the long run. Between the parts and the lost track time that I have paid for, I've lost $2,500 this season alone.

[Glenn]

The ECT can also fail in way that it isn't reporting temps in a normal range but hasn't really failed. The range for this sensor to show up as a failure in the pcm is way wider than its normal opperating range.

 

It is a $10 part. Mine will get replaced often.

 

Oh by the way, I replace that as well. It made no difference.

 

Call me. # is in the rules.

[Adam Ginsberg]

I'm going to put this out there so everyone can see it - the 3rd Gen cars have more engine choices than any other chassis in our series.

 

• 1. 305 TPI
  2. 305 Carb
  3. 350 Carb
  4. 350/LT1

 

Is adding the LS1 really what CMC is supposed to be about?? The LT1 never should have been permitted in the first place.

 

As someone with experience with all of them, I can tell you there are only really 3 choices there. The TPI is a waste of time and money. You will be left spending a whole bunch of money for something which will make too much torque. You may have the only one in your region ever.

 

While you may believe that to be true, the reality here is simple - our rules permit four engine choices for the 3rd Gen. That is more than any platform in our series. Period.

 

Yes, we have a 305 TPI car in CA. He's had some teething pains with it, but dammit, that car (and it's driver) are fast. We also have a 305 carbed 3rd Gen, as well as a 350 carbed 3rg Gen (although the 350 carb car doesn't come out any longer).

 

Racers asked for the LT1 to be allowed. A few directors thought it would be a great idea, saying they had folks ready to jump to do it. From what I've seen, not that many took the leap. Now, it's in our rulebook, and taking it out (if it's ever decided to do so....no one has submitted an RCR to do that....yet) will be difficult.

 

While I don't agree with Glenn's....delivery, to Robert, he has a valid point: the issues Robert is experiencing is not the responsibility of the Series or the Director's. Asking to add the LS1 to a 3rd Gen because he hasn't been able to fix the motor issues is not a valid reason to allow engine swaps into cars that NEVER HAD THAT ENGINE FROM THE FACTORY. It's one of a few reasons why I wasn't for the allowance of the LT1. It goes completely against the original CMC intent!

 

And for the record, I'm not in favor of permitting the Ford 5.4L engine into any Ford CMC car, nor a 351W. Those engines were only installed in very limited production, race-only Cobra R's, and have no business being in CMC.

 

The LT1 is a great motor when it runs, but when it doesn't it sucks ass to diagnose. Without a computer there is no way to diagnose them. Glenn yours must be a 93 as those are the only ones I am aware of which can be shorted to produce a code if you have a 94 or 95 you have the joy of having an OBD II port with an OBD I computer, the new scanner won't read them and you cannot short the ports together.

 

This is a perfect example of one reason why the LT1 maybe should not have been permitted in the 3rd Gen. Yet, I recall racers saying it was a great idea, insisted it would help the class, would bail CMC if it wasn't allowed.....and now we are left with the aftermath.

 

I know of at least one TX racer that was all for the LT1 swap, was adamant it was needed, was necessary.....never did the swap the year we allowed it, and has never been back to race.

 

That all said - Robert, while I have no direct racing experience as a 3rd Gen car owner, I recall a few racers in our region (CA) having similar issues with the LT1. From my recollection, there should be some sort of pressure release valve for the Opti that is needed. When it fails, or doesn't work correctly, the Opti overheats, or gets pressurized (I don't remember which), preventing it from working correctly. No doubt, someone with wayyy more LT1 experience can properly explain what I'm referring to.

[roadracerwhite]

I'm going to put this out there so everyone can see it - the 3rd Gen cars have more engine choices than any other chassis in our series.

 

• 1. 305 TPI
  2. 305 Carb
  3. 350 Carb
  4. 350/LT1

 

Is adding the LS1 really what CMC is supposed to be about?? The LT1 never should have been permitted in the first place.

 

As someone with experience with all of them, I can tell you there are only really 3 choices there. The TPI is a waste of time and money. You will be left spending a whole bunch of money for something which will make too much torque. You may have the only one in your region ever.

 

While you may believe that to be true, the reality here is simple - our rules permit four engine choices for the 3rd Gen. That is more than any platform in our series. Period.

 

Yes, we have a 305 TPI car in CA. He's had some teething pains with it, but dammit, that car (and it's driver) are fast. We also have a 305 carbed 3rd Gen, as well as a 350 carbed 3rg Gen (although the 350 carb car doesn't come out any longer).

 

Racers asked for the LT1 to be allowed. A few directors thought it would be a great idea, saying they had folks ready to jump to do it. From what I've seen, not that many took the leap. Now, it's in our rulebook, and taking it out (if it's ever decided to do so....no one has submitted an RCR to do that....yet) will be difficult.

 

While I don't agree with Glenn's....delivery, to Robert, he has a valid point: the issues Robert is experiencing is not the responsibility of the Series or the Director's. Asking to add the LS1 to a 3rd Gen because he hasn't been able to fix the motor issues is not a valid reason to allow engine swaps into cars that NEVER HAD THAT ENGINE FROM THE FACTORY. It's one of a few reasons why I wasn't for the allowance of the LT1. It goes completely against the original CMC intent!

 

And for the record, I'm not in favor of permitting the Ford 5.4L engine into any Ford CMC car, nor a 351W. Those engines were only installed in very limited production, race-only Cobra R's, and have no business being in CMC.

 

The LT1 is a great motor when it runs, but when it doesn't it sucks ass to diagnose. Without a computer there is no way to diagnose them. Glenn yours must be a 93 as those are the only ones I am aware of which can be shorted to produce a code if you have a 94 or 95 you have the joy of having an OBD II port with an OBD I computer, the new scanner won't read them and you cannot short the ports together.

 

This is a perfect example of one reason why the LT1 maybe should not have been permitted in the 3rd Gen. Yet, I recall racers saying it was a great idea, insisted it would help the class, would bail CMC if it wasn't allowed.....and now we are left with the aftermath.

 

I know of at least one TX racer that was all for the LT1 swap, was adamant it was needed, was necessary.....never did the swap the year we allowed it, and has never been back to race.

 

That all said - Robert, while I have no direct racing experience as a 3rd Gen car owner, I recall a few racers in our region (CA) having similar issues with the LT1. From my recollection, there should be some sort of pressure release valve for the Opti that is needed. When it fails, or doesn't work correctly, the Opti overheats, or gets pressurized (I don't remember which), preventing it from working correctly. No doubt, someone with wayyy more LT1 experience can properly explain what I'm referring to.

 

At the time of adding the LT1 it was the easiest/cheapest way to make the power in a third gen. It is still a viable option, but even the fourth gen guys are tired of running it.

 

The fact that the engine never came in it is irrelevant. The lT1 uses the same motor mounts and bellhousing as the 305 and 350 for the car so I don't understand your problem with it. Besides, only the LT1 and LS1 are the only engines which don't need to be modified in some way to make the power, so most of these cars didn't come this way.

[roadracerwhite]

I am in favor of allowing the LS1 and 5.3 in third gens. I think with a few reference measurements anyone would be certain the engine is in the right spot.

 

I am also for allowing the 5.4 and 351 for the ford guys. Maybe just a carb package for the 351, but I think it could be done. I would like to see a dyno comparison with a 5.4 to make sure it would fit in. I think this would make it easier to make the power without having to spend a ton of money.

 

 

Bryan

[suck fumes1548534743]

The 5.4 and 351 are out of the picture. There's no way you can choke the torque down low enough to make the numbers.

[Adam Ginsberg]

At the time of adding the LT1 it was the easiest/cheapest way to make the power in a third gen.

 

Apparently it's not the "easiest/cheapest". Additionally, the series hadn't yet finished figuring out the already-permitted engine combinations. Until that was sorted out, we should not have permitted the LT1.

 

The fact that the engine never came in it is irrelevant.

 

Respectfully, I don't see, particularly, as a director, how you can say it's irrelevant. From a CMC perspective, it's COMPLETELY relevant, and a MAJOR component to the class. To extrapolate on your perspective, then, any engine could be used in a CMC car, regardless if it ever came in the chassis or not, since it's "irrelevant".

 

That is totally outside what CMC has always been about.

 

The lT1 uses the same motor mounts and bellhousing as the 305 and 350 for the car so I don't understand your problem with it.

 

The fact that it uses the same motor mounts and bellhousing is, IMO, irrelevant. The 351W uses the same motor mounts and bellhousing as the 5.0L. The 5.4L modular engine uses the same motor mounts and bellhousing as the. 4.6L engines. Does that mean we should allow them both in CMC? IMO - hell no. And, BOTH of those engines WERE installed in their respective generation Mustangs. The LT1 was not.

[MHISSTC]

...not a valid reason to allow engine swaps into cars that NEVER HAD THAT ENGINE FROM THE FACTORY.

 

It goes completely against the original CMC intent!

 

Yet I still don't understand why installing a 302 in a '99-'04 Mustang using custom engine mounts is currently O.K..

 

And we have a RCR proposal that would allow the 4.6L SOHC and non-supercharged DOHC to be installed in the '79-'98 cars too.

 

Is the vision and mission of this series reaching a crossroads? Are we trying to make it easier to build race cars, or are we trying to make it easier to race the cars we build? They are not the same thing and a lot of discussion on many fronts seems to be pitting these two viewpoints against each other. I think we can still continue to develop well thought out rules and rules revisions that may be able to accomplish both, but it's not getting any easier as the cars age.

[suck fumes1548534743]

96-98 cars already come with 4.6 sohc(Gt) and dohc(cobra) engines

Edited October 16, 2013 by Guest

[MHISSTC]

96-98 cars already can with 4.6 sohc(Gt) and dohc(cobra) engines

 

can what?

[suck fumes1548534743]

Stupid spell check. Fixed it.

[Glenn]

Thank you for judging my reasoning Glenn. It's always helpful to have you weigh in and tell everyone else they are wrong or they don't know what they are doing. If only we all had your vast knowledge there would be no problems left in the world.

Not sure why you took anything I said as an attack. I simply stated the obvious.

 

 

First of all, it is not just me that cannot diagnose my engine problem. I have called around to dozens of shops in the Chicagoland area to find a mechanic that can diagnose the problem and have not found one that will work on the car. As soon as I tell them its OBI they say they can't help me.

Think it may have something to do w/ an LT1 in a 3rd gen? Didn't come that way from GM. The fact that "SAE" mechanics don't want to touch it doesn't really lend any credibility w/ me. Most of the ones I know can't be trusted w/ anything I drive for anything beyond oil changes. Doesn't mean that the rules need to be changed cause you got a problem. Ain't gonna happen.

 

Second, where in the rules does it say we can convert OBDI computers to OBDII? Does Texas have a different set of rules than the rest of the regions?

Once again w/ the attacks. Why so hostile? Texas doesn't have a different rule book, but possibly a better understanding of it than you seem to have.

I said nothing of converting a PCM. Don't think it could be done anyways. But any LT1 part is legal in any LT1 4th gen. Buy a OBD-II LT1 F-body PCM. Change the things that need to be changed on the motor to run OBD-II PCM. Now you have OBD-II. Lots cheaper than an LS1.

 

 

Using luck to find out what is wrong with my car does not sit real well when I am paying $350 for a weekend of racing only to find out the car is still not fixed.

Cause your the only one in CMC (or NASA) who has done that. By all means, change the rules now!

 

So what you are telling me is that since I have a car that was made a few years earlier, I do not get to run the same engine that the fourth gens can? And exactly how does that make the different generations equal? I guess it makes it even if you happen to own a fourth gen.

 

Yep. You can't run the same motor as a 4th gen. You can't use the same swaybars either. Can't use the same shocks (front). Can't use the same fibergalss doors.

But wait... The 4th gen can't run a carb (and yes some guys would). 4thgens also can't run a fiberglass hood that is lighter than the OEM steel one. They also don't get to use 3rd gen sway bars (rear) that are larger. 4th gens also can't run aluminum front impact beams. We could go on and on about what each platform can't do relative to one another. The short answer is, it isn't allowed. It wasn't when you bought the 3rd gen to race and I don't see why your so up-set over it.

 

It likely will not be allowed unless a few issues are resolved. The number 1 issue (I see) is engine placement. Until we can be sure it isn't lowered or moved rearward, it isn't going to get approved.