What is going on with CMC?

[AllZWay]

I think Adam has listed a couple of primary reasons for the decline... except for bagging on Al.

 

Al has been busy this year, but is usually very engaged with the series.

 

 

 

The COST... I think is the number one reason for loss of interest.

 

With the old 230hp rules hardly anything broke and the cars would last forever and could be ran close to stock. The new rules have broken everything on my car.

 

The new rules also now require expensive shocks and brakes to be competitive.

 

 

The new SI class obviously is a drain on the class as well. I think it is a good class and probably where the rules should have gone a while back for the newer cars instead of the CMC2 rules direction.

[Adam Ginsberg]

I think Adam has listed a couple of primary reasons for the decline... except for bagging on Al.

 

Al has been busy this year, but is usually very engaged with the series.

 

You see my comments as "bagging on Al". They aren't.

 

Al is in your backyard, so it makes sense that your perspective is not the same as mine.

 

From a former Director (very active until this year) - he was NOT actively engaged in the series throughout the year. You don't deal with a full region of racers, as well as the other Series Directors, throughout the season, so you don't have an accurate idea of what goes on when not at the track.

 

As I said, getting Al to engage, over the course of the season has been very difficult. Getting answers to various questions in a timely manner has been challenging - when I have a local racer, building a car at a shop, asking a question that I need clarification on, and I can't get an answer for ~2+ weeks.....that is not conducive for growing the series.

 

Al has not just been "busy this year".....he has for several years. This has been an on-going problem with CMC, whether you believe it or not.

 

You may note my comment was not some sarcastic, biting gig. It was simple, to the point, and factual.

[AllZWay]

Adam.. I guess it may be all about perspective, but I have never had a problem communicating with Al, by phone, email, forums, or at the track.

[cozog1548534733]

For anyone reading this thread and thinking "Geez, there's a lot of issues in CMC", let me share a few comments made by the drivers from this weekend's event at Autobahn:

 

"This weekend was an awesome example of what Great Lakes and Midwest CMC racing is all about and we should get the word out."

 

"We have the best CMC region in the country and lets keep it that way and make it even better."

 

"The coolest part of the weekend was everyone pitching in, pulling together to help his buddy. Sharing time, equipment and experience is a great morale booster. Helping someone salvage their weekend in the pits or on the track is by far the best thing you could give someone. It ain't over till the Lady sings."

 

Personally, I helped change a fuel pump in the dark, repair wiring that was pulled out and pitched in to make sure a couple guys could get on track in time for our race sessions. I did this knowing full well that they would all be faster than me. Then they came to my rescue when my torque arm mount disappeared. Thanks Bob, Jim, Pete and Bryan.

 

Oh, and the faster drivers are always willing to try and help me get faster with advice, suggestions and lead/follow in practice sessions. Thanks Derek and Dave.

 

THAT is why I love racing with our CMC family. I'm sure other series' groups have good camaraderie, but there's something a little bit more special about a bunch of mullet heads (GM) and knuckle draggers (Ford) helping each other to have faster and closer racing.

[Smike]

THAT is why I love racing with our CMC family. I'm sure other series' groups have good camaraderie, but there's something a little bit more special about a bunch of mullet heads (GM) and knuckle draggers (Ford) helping each other to have faster and closer racing.

 

Getting attitude and intent across on the internet is difficult. And I do not post here very often. So don't take this as mean or hostile.

 

But Todd - what Fords?

 

 

Full disclosure, yes I know 2 showed up that weekend.

 

What is being done to keep the vitality up in this series? Where are the Fords? The Mustang is one of the MOST popular pony cars of all time. Who are we targeting to bring into the series? What is there to entice someone to watch CMC in the MW/GL and say "my Mustang can play with those guys"? And I don't mean go out and run mid-back pack. Without spending $35k for a SN99.

 

The MW/GL has become Spec F-Body. The Directors (Ford or GM fans alike) need to sit down and review both platforms in all variants and engines. Are all on equal playing grounds? Engine displacements, restricting over squeezing out every last bit of juice, aerodynamics, chassis stiffness, etc.

[Sidney]

Smike,

 

Some quick history: Bob and Bryan are huge Pontiac guys. Old GTO's and the like. Bob was my main mechanic so when I switched from a Porsche to AGS it made sense to go F-body. I sold my car to Jim and Bob sold his car to Peter. When Bob, Bryan, and I looked at seeding the class there was no question which platform we were going to build. Rob is racing our winter project.

 

It's not really as much a F-Body is better than a Mustang as it is a Bob Denton is a GM dude to the core and he's the first one on that list that started racing in CMC. He's kind of the Godfather of CMC racing in the Midwest. Probably started racing in the Midwest Division before there was a split off to Great Lakes!

 

Anyway...if you look at other regions the Mustang is much more common.

 

Carry on,

 

Sidney

[Sidney]

I would add...a couple of the Mustang guys that use to race/prep/rent cars have moved on to Spec Iron or American Iron with new Mustangs. Steve Poe was in CMC before Bob...Steve rents SI Mustangs. Anders' old Mustang (National Champ) still runs occasionally in CMC. Ander's took his S197 to American Iron when he was forced out of CMC. When Matt King got out of closed wheel racing...his Mustang was sold out of region. Robin Burnett's had a couple SN95's he would rent...but I believe he's all S197 now.

 

Sidney

[suck fumes1548534743]

I am turning my CMC car into AI because I know I'll never get out of it what I invested. A front running nationally competitive Mustang is very expensive to prep and make fast especially with the torque disadvantage. But if you invest the money you know you'll never get back into it then you can beat the F bodies. But hands down the F body is the cheapest solution for making power. I just hate F bodies haha

 

Spec iron cars can be built for about the same as a front running CMC car assuming you do all the work yourself. But I can see spec iron already taking a turn toward what spec Miata has become. Cause now people are going to start tearing engines apart and blue printing everything to stay up front after that ass whooping Corey and I gave at nationals lol! I just wanted to try the class since I already had a street car but as of now I'm over the whole spec racing stuff after running various spec cars over the years. I really enjoyed CMC but the car counts just don't make it fun for me anymore.

[D Algozine]

I know many fast , reliable and successful CMC cars have been built for half of the $30k plus in parts alone that are needed for an SI car.

[cozog1548534733]

THAT is why I love racing with our CMC family. I'm sure other series' groups have good camaraderie, but there's something a little bit more special about a bunch of mullet heads (GM) and knuckle draggers (Ford) helping each other to have faster and closer racing.

 

Getting attitude and intent across on the internet is difficult. And I do not post here very often. So don't take this as mean or hostile.

 

But Todd - what Fords?

 

 

Full disclosure, yes I know 2 showed up that weekend.

 

What is being done to keep the vitality up in this series? Where are the Fords? The Mustang is one of the MOST popular pony cars of all time. Who are we targeting to bring into the series? What is there to entice someone to watch CMC in the MW/GL and say "my Mustang can play with those guys"? And I don't mean go out and run mid-back pack. Without spending $35k for a SN99.

 

The MW/GL has become Spec F-Body. The Directors (Ford or GM fans alike) need to sit down and review both platforms in all variants and engines. Are all on equal playing grounds? Engine displacements, restricting over squeezing out every last bit of juice, aerodynamics, chassis stiffness, etc.

 

You threw out a lot of things and I'll try to address them as best as I can.

 

I think only showing the results from the 2nd Sunday race is twisting the facts a bit. In Saturday's race, Joe Sullivan (experienced driver) finished 5th out of 11, running on 7 cylinders, and Marshall Moore finished 9th (Rookie). Joe couldn't run Sundays 1st race (mechanical, IIRC) but Marshall started and broke on lap 2. He's still sorting the car out. It's his first year. With those now understood, there WERE our regular Stang drivers at the event. We also have a regular visitor, Spencer Black, from the NE region who races at the Mid-Ohio events. He raced at both Pittsburgh races this year too and won a couple of them.

 

But let's address the issue of MW/GL lacking Stangs. In the short 4-5 years I've been around and in CMC, the Stang drivers seem to come and go in MW/GL. Anders Sjoblom, Dan Close, Matt King, Chris Capaldi, Robin Burnett, Steve Poe, Tom Petrosky, Rob Legree, Deirdre Lutsch and Mike Gerowitz have all come and gone. Some quit racing and others moved to different classes. But if you go back and look at the records like I just did, you'll see, Bob Denton, Bryan White, and Kent Owens have been racing for at least 5 years without stopping. No Mustang driver has lasted that long. Now throw in even more GM drivers that have joined the fun every year since then (Robert, Tim, Myself, Jim, Pete, etc.), and I can see where it looks a bit lopsided. It's just that MW/GL is a hotbed of road racing GM people. Maybe the Ford guys in our area like drag racing or oval racing more, I dunno. Maybe because there were ALWAYS the same GM guys at the races and it attracted the other GM folks to join in? Maybe it's because the newer Mustangs are more attractive to race with? I can't answer that and don't think anyone else can.

 

But it's not because the SN95 Stang is not up to the task. While Anders was racing in GL, he consistently was races in his SN95 and even won a nation championship. Or was it two, I can't remember.

 

And what happened to you, Mike? I actually visited Mid-Ohio when you raced against Derek in Aug 2013. You only lost because of some traffic, finished only 2.235 behind him and was only off .3 sec of his fast lap. then in the off season, you moved to PTC to run alone and started making requests for non-oem go fast parts. I begged you to come race with us at Pitt this year, even with your illegal PTC parts. I didn't care what parts you had and neither did the CMC guys that were there. We would have loved to have one more car to race against. You've already pulled the control arms, why won't you just go back to the stock intake and race with us to make it an even dozen at the start?!?

 

But that's just the MW/GL regions. Other regions have the opposite issue. Looking at some Mid-Atlantic races showed 6 stangs and 2 GM at one event, then at VIR had 8 stangs and only 1 GM. They have the complete opposite issue there. But at Hallet and Cresson, it was a good mix of 11 GM / 7 stngs and 9 GM / 6 stangs each. It seems to be completely dependent on where you live as to how many of what brand will show up.

 

Let's try and finish this by answering your question about enticing Mustangs to the CMC series. You said: "What is there to entice someone to watch CMC in the MW/GL and say "my Mustang can play with those guys"? And I don't mean go out and run mid-back pack. "

The short answer is more Mustangs on track... consistantly. I'm willing to bet if there were just a couple of Fords racing the GM guys for the past 5 years, there would be a few more Fords in the paddock today. The absolute best way is to have exciting, close racing at every event. It's the drivers themselves, through social media, videos, word of mouth and friendships that pull more racers in. Someone knows a racer and goes to see him race, then gets the bug.

 

If you were racing with us, you would be enticing the other Mustang drivers to join the fight. I still don't understand why you would rather race by yourself for 1st place instead of race 3-11 other guys, even you're DFL every time. I do THAT every weekend.

 

As a director, I'm focusing on getting more pictures and video out on the web. I try to sell everyone I talk to on CMC racing. Bob just last week made up a really nice 8.5"x11" placard with all the cars on front and series schedule on back with a nice write up about CMC. I'll try to post it up on here shortly. But it's really up to the drivers to help grow the series. They are the ones who best show the excitement and enthusiasm for racing in CMC. It's their passion that gets others interested in it.

 

Sorry for the long winded answers. I hope this helps.

[t500hps]

quick comment about things cozog said.......and I remember meeting Mike when he came to VIR last summer and commented how nice it was to see all the mustangs.....in what was my 2nd race weekend.

 

I'm in mid-atlantic and came to CMC 18 months ago. I bought a prepped CMC mustang largely due to the fact 2 of my buddies that I would be racing against had them. They volunteered to help all they could but said they knew little about camaros.

[MHISSTC]

A front running nationally competitive Mustang is very expensive to prep and make fast especially with the torque disadvantage. But if you invest the money you know you'll never get back into it then you can beat the F bodies

 

I really enjoyed CMC but the car counts just don't make it fun for me anymore.

 

Are you bagging on the Texas Region or the National event for low car counts?

 

If it's Texas, that just doesn't make any sense since they traditionally have some of the highest per event CMC car counts of any region. If it's Nationals, a little checking of past results would have shown what has already been stated. Nationals are always a bit low on CMC car counts. I chalk most of what you see at Nationals up to the whole intent of CMC being an "entry level" racing series. This is where folks who may just be getting their feet wet in racing and building cars, who may not have a big enough budget to travel huge distances out of state, or who can't afford to build a nationally competitive car out of the gate can go racing with people they enjoy hanging out with and have fun doing it.

 

Spec iron cars can be built for about the same as a front running CMC car assuming you do all the work yourself. But I can see spec iron already taking a turn toward what spec Miata has become. Cause now people are going to start tearing engines apart and blue printing everything to stay up front after that ass whooping Corey and I gave at nationals lol! I just wanted to try the class since I already had a street car but as of now I'm over the whole spec racing stuff after running various spec cars over the years.

 

Congratulations on building two nationally competitive cars, possessing the talent to take advantage of them, and turning that combination into multiple podium finishes.

 

So now that you've taken personal credit for raising the competitive bar in two different racing series that you're bailing out of, it really makes me wonder if you had spent 30-50% less on those cars and made it even 10% harder for you to come by your accomplishments, that maybe it would have been a better challenge for you, you could have increased your enjoyment in each of those series by 100%, stuck around, and been a good ambassador for either of the series.

[cozog1548534733]

I'm in mid-atlantic and came to CMC 18 months ago. I bought a prepped CMC mustang largely due to the fact 2 of my buddies that I would be racing against had them. They volunteered to help all they could but said they knew little about camaros.

 

Exactly my point. When you have the same 3 gm guys running every year, the GMs become more popular by way of visibility. If we had just a couple Ford drivers show up for every race, we might get more interest potential Ford racers.

[suck fumes1548534743]

A front running nationally competitive Mustang is very expensive to prep and make fast especially with the torque disadvantage. But if you invest the money you know you'll never get back into it then you can beat the F bodies

 

I really enjoyed CMC but the car counts just don't make it fun for me anymore.

 

Are you bagging on the Texas Region or the National event for low car counts?

 

If it's Texas, that just doesn't make any sense since they traditionally have some of the highest per event CMC car counts of any region. If it's Nationals, a little checking of past results would have shown what has already been stated. Nationals are always a bit low on CMC car counts. I chalk most of what you see at Nationals up to the whole intent of CMC being an "entry level" racing series. This is where folks who may just be getting their feet wet in racing and building cars, who may not have a big enough budget to travel huge distances out of state, or who can't afford to build a nationally competitive car out of the gate can go racing with people they enjoy hanging out with and have fun doing it.

 

Spec iron cars can be built for about the same as a front running CMC car assuming you do all the work yourself. But I can see spec iron already taking a turn toward what spec Miata has become. Cause now people are going to start tearing engines apart and blue printing everything to stay up front after that ass whooping Corey and I gave at nationals lol! I just wanted to try the class since I already had a street car but as of now I'm over the whole spec racing stuff after running various spec cars over the years.

 

Congratulations on building two nationally competitive cars, possessing the talent to take advantage of them, and turning that combination into multiple podium finishes.

 

So now that you've taken personal credit for raising the competitive bar in two different racing series that you're bailing out of, it really makes me wonder if you had spent 30-50% less on those cars and made it even 10% harder for you to come by your accomplishments, that maybe it would have been a better challenge for you, you could have increased your enjoyment in each of those series by 100%, stuck around, and been a good ambassador for either of the series.

 

 

I think you took what I said the wrong way. I wasn't trying to be negative or arrogant I was just saying at a nationals level there are barely any cars. I know the class can't be judged on a national level and many just stay local which is perfectly fine. There are a decent number of cars in Texas and some great people as well who are super nice. I have had a lot of old competitors from the Miata world asking me about mustangs and racing one but they all seem to drift toward SI or AI. Why? I don't know, maybe the rules and car counts are more appealing? I don't know the answer but I bet if the cars were allowed to be made more reliable then more people may flock to CMC?

[MHISSTC]

I think you took what I said the wrong way.

 

...I bet if the cars were allowed to be made more reliable then more people may flock to CMC?

 

I apologize if I misunderstood.

 

More reliable cars are good. I see a lot of broken CMC cars.

 

Rather than bailing on the series, stay in it and submit RCRs you think would help the series and nurture those other SM drivers interested in CMC.

 

*cough* seam welding *cough*

[Dustin M.]

And more power!

[MHISSTC]

And more power!

 

no.

 

If we went that route, I'd want a straight dyno measured power to weight ratio class without regard to OEM parts other than keeping a FoMoCo block in a FoMoCo and a GM bock in a GM. I don't see that happening.

[Dustin M.]

Oh come on, 350hp never hurt anyone. Just think how much more fun it'd be to plant the skinny pedal next to someone!

[Smike]

I noted the other two Mustangs. Rookie or not, we're not getting Mustangs through the HPDE ladder or interested in moving up the ladder to CMC - either way.

 

Have we looked at why the Mustangs have not stuck around? Root causes?

 

CMC1 or CMC2 when all the Mustangs were around? Did it coincide with the HP bump?

 

Me? I moved to PTC to explore what the chassis can do unrestricted to answer for myself if there is more in the car or not. Those non-OEM parts include addressing the upper RPM air flow in the 4.6L and stronger front LCAs.

 

Here is both dyno sheets with the stock 65mm throttle body and plenum:

 

Here is the car with a 70mm throttle body and smoother plenum:

 

A/F was tuned with fuel pressure for both. Note the drop off above 4500. 290tq to 200tq. Ouch. With airflow corrected it goes 290tq to 240tq. And plateaued the HP up top with a +15hp helper. The car is fun to drive with pull up top and not gasping for air. I've already moved to a lower rear gear to help. Unless I go to a 3.08 (have a 3.31 now)...I need those 4500-5800 RPMs.

 

Mid-Ohio - hey I'd like to think I have some skills behind the wheel And yes, if it wasn't for a Miata stepping into my lane, I could have won. I apologize. It did not come across that you wanted me to run with you all at PittRace.

 

Correct, LCAs are off again - I'll live with replacing the OE type. I've gotten fast at swapping them. Airflow parts...TBD.

 

Bingo - Media coverage. We've had a steady drop off in fans. Even locals wandering through. Bigger picture - get people to come watch. Get AXers to come over. Forums? Clubs? Get more into road racing.

 

And there were PTC cars when I reviewed how this car classes. We've seen PT really drop off too. I think there were 2 - total, at ACC.

 

If I can help get more into CMC - get me involved. I talk about it all the time with my HPDE 3/4s.

 

Appreciate the answers.

Edited September 10, 2014 by Guest

[Smike]

quick comment about things cozog said.......and I remember meeting Mike when he came to VIR last summer and commented how nice it was to see all the mustangs.....in what was my 2nd race weekend.

 

I'm in mid-atlantic and came to CMC 18 months ago. I bought a prepped CMC mustang largely due to the fact 2 of my buddies that I would be racing against had them. They volunteered to help all they could but said they knew little about camaros.

 

That was AWESOME! Too bad it was right after the Oak Tree fell.

 

Damn yellow flag for most of that race. Would have loved some more green laps.

[suck fumes1548534743]

The intake plenum and throttle body is really the answer to a lot of the power problems for most that don't want to rebuild the whole engine. Cheapest way to make easy power. Doubt it would be passed though.

[Smike]

The intake plenum and throttle body is really the answer to a lot of the power problems for most that don't want to rebuild the whole engine. Cheapest way to make easy power. Doubt it would be passed though.

 

Exactly. $280 with clear results. Or a lot of work and much more funds. Plus, not everyone who races has the ability (or funds) to rebuild a motor from the ground up.

[suck fumes1548534743]

Yah I mean you can get the big numbers if you redo the whole thing. I squeezed 266/312 out of mine but it wasn't easy. I would have rather bought throttle body/plenum.

[roadracerwhite]

So we can expect a RCR for this then right?

[cozog1548534733]

So we can expect a RCR for this then right?

 

I already received it from Mike. Just was waiting for the silly season to start to submit officially to directors.