How to reconcile West coast vs. East coast for Nationals

[Spec-944#70]

I've stayed out of this because I'm a mid packer and I am not going to go cross country to race. (But I'll chip in some $ to sponsor one of our boys to go compete!) It's Christmas so lighten up a bit. Tim is passionate about this series just as much as Dave is on the East Coast. You guys have a great thing out there as do we. The problem is you will never get the cars 100% equal. You guys run different cars with different setups than we do. We probably could agree on a weight to add but then if the Spec cars win you'll say we added too much, if you win we'll say we didn't add enough so it will always end up with some disagreement. It's comparing apples to oranges. So yes we can run together but it won't be a true National Champ because the classes are different.

We run the same engine mods, tires make/size, susp and all weigh 2600# w/driver. Cup allows 924-944 with 2.0 - 2.7 ltr motors and try to adjust for weight? Has a 2.0 924 won an event? Your stats show 2 924 at 27th and 29th. Maybe they're new drivers and still learning but it looks like they'll have their backsides handed to them untill they get a 944 and your top 4 cars are 2.7's? And on top of that you add a weight penalty and they're still winning? Looks to me like if you want to win in your series you'll need a fully prepped 2.7 to win! In Spec since all the cars are basically the same we only have 2.5 and we've had winners from almost any year so no one car is superior. So why can't you guys see that this is a problem? We would LOVE to have a National Championship and it would be tons of fun to run with you guys but can we REALLY equalize the rules? Right now in Cup the 2.7's are winning but don't the 2.0 924's complain they don't stand a chance? Like I said if a Spec cars wins you'll cry foul and we'd do the same if a Cup car won. Otherwise it's just the Cup guys with a winner and the Spec guys have a winner and we don't need to travel halfway accross the country to figure that one out. We both already have Champions!! But it sure would be fun to have an event with a ton of 944's running around. Maybe now is the time to get our respective Directors on a conf call to work on a set of rules to get the cars to meet halfway??

Here is my suggestion and flame away if you must but to get a TRUE National Champ Series going NASA should decide on 1 set of rules for National. Maybe we let our respective Directors talk to NASA National and push the issues as to which rules should be used. Then we can migrate our two groups together as 1 over some time or just continue to run as we are a bunch of cheap racing guys who love the competition and hanging with our friends at the track.

Flame away boys!! I'm ready!!

And if Cup rules are used I'm selling my car and getting a 2.7!!! I'll play either way!!

OOPPSS I just noticed a 924 all they way up to 15th but he's done quite a few events and has yet to get close to the podium. Sorry just trying to post correct info!

[samdog]

Tim,

 

On a completely unrelated subject, why does spec allow the use of engine management chips? It seems to me that in a spec series, this is the one anomoly. They are expensive, not all the same, and not all model years can use them (without difficult adaptation). With your "everyone equal" ideal, I find it difficult to understand that one allowance.

 

I'm not being sarcastic, I geniunely don't understand that one aspect.

 

Would it be legal for instance for someone to have their car re-mapped and chipped to run on 110 Octane race gas? That would add significant HP but also significant costs and seems to run counter to your series.

 

Just curious,

 

Steve L

[The Original]

Maybe now is the time to get our respective Directors on a conf call to work on a set of rules to get the cars to meet halfway??

 

OOPPSS I just noticed a 924 all they way up to 15th but he's done quite a few events and has yet to get close to the podium. Sorry just trying to post correct info!

 

I think what people are saying (and what I've said) is that it's clear the Cup Director is willing to work together. Any suggestion made to the CA Director for Spec has been met with resistence. He simply says one thing or another, regardless of the compromise, will not work. It's Spec or nothing.

 

I'm not certain about the other 924s but I do know the driver you mention is in his mid-70s. If you notice his laptimes are considerably slower than everyone else... and it's not because he drives a 924.

[Packfill]

Cup Guys....

 

1) Please do not confuse the voice of our esteemed director, as the voice of us all...if National rules are set, each individual will determine their willingness to participate.

2) Most of the Spec guys are in Spec because we a) love the comraderie and b) dont have (or wish to spend) the money to race fa$ter cars... I think a great question (or poll) would be "If we could agree on a set of rules, how many drivers would invest the money to refit their cars and (more importantly) spend the $5+K to run a week in Ohio... I believe that as fun as this would be, without a call from Red Bull Racing, I would probably not be able to swing it....In southern California, 5K will get most of us through the better part of a season.....

[944-Spec#94]

Tim,

 

On a completely unrelated subject, why does spec allow the use of engine management chips? It seems to me that in a spec series, this is the one anomoly. They are expensive, not all the same, and not all model years can use them (without difficult adaptation). With your "everyone equal" ideal, I find it difficult to understand that one allowance.

 

I'm not being sarcastic, I geniunely don't understand that one aspect.

 

Would it be legal for instance for someone to have their car re-mapped and chipped to run on 110 Octane race gas? That would add significant HP but also significant costs and seems to run counter to your series.

 

Just curious,

 

Steve L

 

Steve we allow chips and have since day one. Reason is that folks are getting 2-3 hp from chips and we felt that kind of performance was not worth the effort to police. As posted in the 84 chip thread we can with relative easy require stock chips and have a method to police it. It does not however seem like folks want to go in that direction. So chips remain open. Really one great thing about 944 spec it is that it is a "clean sheet " set of made for the 944 2.5L 8v NA cars. This means we can allow or dis-allow certain mods dependant on how they impact the 944. SCCA can't make simple changes to ITS rules since the will impact the few hundred cars in different ways. Same for PCA as well. If they allow aftermarket chips in PCA stock then some cars will have and edge over others and the balance of power changes. With 944 spec we have tailored the rules TO the 944 for purposes of making the cars, cheap to build, reliable, equal and fun to drive. We were not limited by other type of cars and therefore I feel the 944 spec rules are the purest form of 944 racing and provides a near ideal balance of cost containment, reliability and fun.

[Tim Comeau]

Steve,

Your question regarding chips? It was deemed too difficult to police chips and they don't give enough power to make a difference. Our compression ratio is limited to 10.5:1, so there's no need to run super high octane race gas. Some guys still do run 100 octane unleaded.

 

I'm not asking anybody to throw away their 944's and start over with a 944 spec car. I'm trying to get new guys in other NASA chapters to build 944 spec cars so that we can compare apples to apples when we have the Natonals. I suggested that if guys wanted to "convert" their existing 944 to spec, they could probably make some money.

It might interest you guys to know that several years ago, I wanted to start my own 944 series. I had my own rules in mind. Then I got word of this class in NASA-AZ and instead of doing my own thing, I jumped on board with NASA's rules. It's not about me. It's bigger than me. And it's a great class that I've taken to heart. Claiming that this class' rules are the "end all" and the standard is not a matter of ego. The rules have been picked up by 4 sanctioning bodies. THAT is what makes it the standard. Nothing to do with me.

Edited December 24, 2005 by Guest

[944-Spec#94]

It's Spec or nothing.

 

The idea of spec or nothing sounds rigid, but for good reason.

 

944 spec currently has a sound set of rules that I believe are very close to ideal. Changes to our rule set to accomodate the prep levels of 944 cup cars only serves to take away the experience that we on the west coast have been building for years.

 

944 cup on the other hand by its nature is receptive ot other car prep levels. Why? It already has an SCCA IT prep and PCA prep.

 

944 spec on the other hand has made a point of having all cars built and kept to 944 spec trim levels. There is no way to allow alternate prep in the class without destrying one major idea behind the class and that is equal cars.

 

The situation is similar to Carrera Cup and Speed World Challenge cars. Speed GT cars take a bunch of differenet cars and attempt to balance these cars for fun/close racing. Carrera cup on the other hand uses equal cars. Clealy one can take a Carrera Cup car and run it in Speed GT. Give it the right "adjustments" and it can win in that series. There is however no way to make a Speed GT car run in Carrera cup unless it conforms 100% to Carrera Cup rules. And any attempt to do so means the end of what Carrera cup stands for in terms of a series.

 

I see this as the same type of issue between 944 spec and 944 cup. This is not because Tim "does not want to compomise". Nope Tim CANNOT compromise and keep to the ideals of the class.

 

That does not mean that we on the west coast cannot allow 944 cup cars to race with us in a class called 944 cup. However since there are no exisitng ITS or PCA stock class cars out here I don't know who would build a more expensive, higher running cost car just to run about the same speed as a 944 spec.

[Tim Comeau]

Well spoken, Joe!.........well spoken. You did a much better job of making things clear than I did.

Thank you.

My hats off.

Keepin' it pure..............

Let's build it.

[The Original]

That does not mean that we on the west coast cannot allow 944 cup cars to race with us in a class called 944 cup. However since there are no exisitng ITS or PCA stock class cars out here I don't know who would build a more expensive, higher running cost car just to run about the same speed as a 944 spec.

 

Unless I read the posts wrong, I think that's all the Cup guys are asking for. Granted you may not get anyone choose to run this class, but I think what they asked for was a place to run. I think in return they were making a reciprocal offer to give Spec guys a place to run in the east.

 

I'd be interested in having a handful of front runners in both groups tally up their cost for running a full season last year. I think contrary to popular belief most amateur racing cost ver similar weekend to weekend.

[Spec-944#70]

Just for the sake of arguements for right now are you thinking run together and have seperate classes or come up with some plan to have 1 set of rules? If it's 1 set of rules what can you think of to equalize your 3 different cars to our 1? Or are you just thinking of equalizing your 2.5's to us? I am all willing to come to some sort of agreement for a "National" set of rules so lets put our heads together!! In the CUP series the 2.7's are running away and the 2.0's are not even competitive so that leaves the 2.5's. What can we do hear? ITS rules allow bkue printing and balancing which we do not. Lightened flywheels? Not here? We allow chips but it sounds like you do not. Our cars are 2600# with driver does your weight include driver? How about headers? Fuel rails? Balance shafts? Wheels/tires? Someone post a full set of your rules as ours on on the web page for all to see. I'm not a PCA member so I don't feel the need to investigate 944 rules there but I am interested in seeing what differences there are! NASA safty rules are both the same so we meet there. Out here you can the 944 Spec in PCA TT, POC and NASA and be competitive.

So lets see some suggestions and let the masses chime in!!

Merry Christmas!!

Now I have a reason to be online through the Holidaze!!

[944 cup]

Just for the sake of arguements for right now are you thinking run together and have seperate classes or come up with some plan to have 1 set of rules?

 

Its really too late to make the type of changes to have the two series run under the same rule set now, even if the illusive middle ground we have been looking for during the last 4 years was found.

 

Separate classes is the only reasonable option at this late date, each series running under their own set of rules in 3 classes, just like other series that run mulitple classes with NASA. Whether they all run in the same run group on the track at the same time will be determined by NASA.

[944 #24]

In the CUP series the 2.7's are running away and the 2.0's are not even competitive so that leaves the 2.5's.

 

All other stuff in this thread aside, I felt the need to register to mention that the results are misleading with respect to the 2.7L engines. It's the drivers (and their combined 30+ years experience) that make these cars fast, not the extra fifth of a liter.

 

The same top four guys have finished in the top four the last three years. The other guys thought the only way to catch the guy who won it three years ago was to get a 2.7, since it had to be the reason he was winning. They all finished behind him this past year realizing that it wasn't the 2.7 that was doing the winning, it was the driver.

 

Now these same guys all finished in the top 4 when they were running the 2.5 so it's safe to say it wasn't because the 2.5 is too slow. A few of them are actually going back to a 2.5 next year because they realized where they'd have an advantage over the 2.7L.

 

Just thought I'd throw that out there since the results from 2005 can be misleading.

[Spec-944#70]

That's great that your fastest drivers are all using the 2.7's and winning but another fact is ALL of your track record (except for Voss in 02) ((Can't verify what he ran then)) are held by your fastest drivers and all in 2.7's. Now if those drivers go to the 2.5's and start beating their records in the 2.7's then I may be inclined to agree but for now the datas is not supporting your arguement. Yes I'm a geek and a data guy!

If you want to run Nationals in 3 944 classes then how would it be a National? You'd have a Cup winner as you do now, a SuperCup winner as you do now and a Spec winner as we do now. The only difference would be it would be earned on a new track!! Hardley bragging rights to spend that kind of money on.

Dave has a good thing going with you guys and if I lived on the East Coast I'd be there right with you!! But if you want a National Runoff we need to either find some way to even the classes out and be fair or work on a rules set and start working to get our cars all on the same page. It doesn't have to be right now but if Dave and whoever helps him and Tim and the AZ director and also get the SCCA guys out here all to work toward unison then we can all play together. This can happen over the next year or 2. We start with some small changes and you do the same and before you know it we're all in the same rule set. Especially if you let the guys know in advance that rules X,Y and Z are going to change we can gear up for it and then replace those parts as they get worn or broken with the correct new parts. I think at this point we need to work toward a common goal of getting things together rather than letting our respective play yards rule the roost. And this is coming from a guy who'll probably never win outright but just enjoys racing and improving my skills.

Another option would be to have NASA decide which are "THE" rules to run Nationals by and 1 of our groups will lose out and be upset. We have the opportunity to work out the issues ourselves and create parity!

Dang I should be a freaking politician!!

Opps wife is yelling at me so Santa better get back to work.

Hope you are all having agreat Christmas Holiday!!

[944 #24]

That's great that your fastest drivers are all using the 2.7's and winning but another fact is ALL of your track record (except for Voss in 02) ((Can't verify what he ran then)) are held by your fastest drivers and all in 2.7's.

 

The same four guys that I was talking about hold the track records. They have broken them each year, regardless of engine. Experience dictates that records are going to be broken year after year... because drivers have more experience in their cars and on the tracks. This past year all those guys happened to be driving the 2.7, so it looks like the 2.7 is the difference. I fully expect track records to get broken again this year, and some by these guys with a 2.5.

 

I think the difference is that we don't need the Spec cars to determine a Cup National. We can call it so because we're going to have four 944 Cup chapter/regions all meeting there for a 944 Cup National run off. Yes, it would be nice to have 944s from all over the country race for a national but when we've got 15-20 from all over the eastern seaboard meeting for a one time "national championship" it doesn't really qualify as the same guys racing at a new track.

 

The bottom line is it would be great to run against you guys but we really don't need to. A bit harsh perhaps, but the reality of it. We're looking to crown a Cup chamption, not a 944 champion.

[944-Spec#94]

Well just remember there are 4 regions supplying 944 spec drivers as we speak.

 

 

Arizona

So-Cal

Northern Cal

and Now the Rocky Mountain Region.

 

So you have 4 we have 4.

 

Sadly there will be few 944 spec cars at Mid Ohio. It simply is too far for me to go and since we are mostly low budget races getting the funds or even time to got 2500 miles for a race we can have less than 700 miles from each of our homes seems rather pointless. If there were real 944 spec cars on the east coast or some where else then it might be fun, but otherwise. Nope... You get the "glory" of a being a National Champion.

Wow... I won a regional championship and came in 2nd two years in row. Hell I won some 20 straight 944 spec races and came in 2nd in the championship that year. Lots of fun, but at the end of the day I am just a club level racer doing it for fun I can get out of it.

 

For me.. If I can get the time and money to do all my local region races plus one Trip to Cal Speedway I will be happy as a pig in sh!t.

 

My wife is pregnant and her due date is the same weekend as our May race so 100% chance I will miss that. So I just need to keep her happy so I can make the others.

[944 #24]

Well just remember there are 4 regions supplying 944 spec drivers as we speak.

 

So you have 4 we have 4.

 

We're not in a pissing contest so I'm not quite sure how that's pertinent to my post... so I guess I'll just say congrats. I was just saying that you guys say a single standard is absolutely necessary and we don't agree.

[944-Spec#94]

Well just remember there are 4 regions supplying 944 spec drivers as we speak.

 

So you have 4 we have 4.

 

We're not in a pissing contest so I'm not quite sure how that's pertinent to my post... so I guess I'll just say congrats.

 

Well you implied that 944 Cup has the right to a National Champions since there are 4 944 cup regions, however 944 spec will just have a few So-Cal boys so it won't be a "national" championship.

 

Seems to me that both 944 cup and 944 spec can claim the same type of pseudo national champion. Techincally national since more than one region runs the class, but not really "National" since these classes are sort of an east coast class for 944 cup and a west cost class for 944 spec.

 

By contrast GTS challenge will a have true national champion as there are GTS cars in just about every region of NASA even if their total numbers are less than or about the same as both 944 groups.

 

Seems to me that the best we can hope for this year is 944 spec, 944 cup and 944 supercup championships.

 

 

 

BTW... this is not a pissing contest. Nope more like a reasonable discussion among 944 racers. Yes we disagree. Reasonable people can do that!

[944 Swede]

Would it make sense at this point for all Directors to work towards one nationwide 944 class that would be adopted by NASA, SCCA, POC, PCA and whoever else?

 

That would be quite a ambitious undertaking and surely some of the current drivers would "quit" but in the long run, a few years from now, it could become as recognized as "spec-miata"

 

If the Directors draft a plan with rules and with the blessing of all organizations a realistic time frame may be to implement a change for the 2007 or 2008 season.

 

What would be the benefit? National sponsorships? Realistically, west and east would still only race each other once or twice a year, NASA and SCCA runoffs.

 

To equalize cars, the best east and west cars and drivers would have to spend a few days at a track together to jointly figure out what makes sense, drive each others cars etc.

 

As long as Directors keep an open mind and dialogue and make educated decisions, they will have my support.

 

I would however be opposed to rebuilding my car once a year just to run Nationals, not interested.

 

Happy Christmas to all

[Spec-944#70]

Ia gree that a National should be all on the same set of rules. People started bashing Tim saying he was not willing to be flexible or try to make some changes but I hear the same thing from the other guys. It'll be Spec/CUP/SuperCup and it won't change period. (Nice attitude!) Then both our respcyive clases will only grow to a certain point and then stop. I toyally agree with Mike and we should be able to sit down and work a set of "National" rules so we can each respectivly tweek our cars and then have a true "National" runoff. We have about 70 2.5 944's out here and you guys said you have about the same number the only problem is you have 924, 924 Turbo, 944 2.5/2.7, 924S, 944S 944S2 944 Turbo's 968's and I think 928's all divided up into 2 classes. Why would it be so hard to just take you 2.5 944's and work on some rule changes so we could have a true 944 National class? Imagine 40-50 944's all with the same cars and have it be a true drivers championship!! The rules could even be flexible so you could add or subtract weigh and still keep them in Cup!! We will also make some changes so our cars would be equal you yours. Then at least the 944's could have a National class to truely have a Champ!! A national Sponsor would suely help the situation. We now have TOYO giving us $$ for class podiums so they would also do that for a National class if that was the tire of choice. I think Tim and others would be willing to work on some rule changes for facilitate a true 944 Champion!! He is flexible.

Otherwise we just keep running as we are and no harm done.

[944 #24]

Seems to me that the best we can hope for this year is 944 spec, 944 cup and 944 supercup championships.

 

That's basically all I was saying... guess I didn't make that clear.

[944 #24]

Ia gree that a National should be all on the same set of rules. People started bashing Tim saying he was not willing to be flexible or try to make some changes but I hear the same thing from the other guys. It'll be Spec/CUP/SuperCup and it won't change period. (Nice attitude!)

 

I think Tim and others would be willing to work on some rule changes for facilitate a true 944 Champion!! He is flexible.

 

What you managed to miss is that the Cup Director offered a compromise in this thread and he said the Spec rules couldn't change. In response to that the suggestion was made as seperate classes in the same race and Tim said that wouldn't work either because "the Spec guys would kill him". Where's the flexibility there?

 

It's not a matter of both parties refusing to talk one another as most people seem to believe. In fact, I have it on good authority that both directors tried to come to a compromise on the rules 4 years ago and Tim wasn't willing to give in order to take. Ask Tim how much he's already been in contact with the Cup Director and how often he's been willing to compromise. You should also ask Tim why he contacted NASA Nationals to propose that the Spec rules be the standard for Mid-Ohio. If he's so willing to compromise and be flexible, why is he running the end around to get what he wants without working together on it?

 

Bottom line: We wanted one rule set so we could crown a 944 Champ but Tim said the only National rules could be Spec rules as they're written. (He even said it in this thread.)That's some great compromise there.

Edited December 26, 2005 by Guest

[Spec-944#70]

That's fine but why call it a National Championship? I would just like to see the rules merged/combined/tweeked so we can ALL run to the same rules. BTW I have an S2 sitting in my driveway screaming to be built for the track!!! So I have reasons for a merge. Poor thing doesn't get driven enough as it is but it would be great fun!! But there is no reason to build it up now.

[944 #24]

I would just like to see the rules merged/combined/tweeked so we can ALL run to the same rules.

You and me both. We'd love to run against you guys but Tim has told us the only way that can happen is if those eligible convert and run the Spec ruleset. I'm sorry, but there's just not enough incentive for us to convert if we can't meet somewhere in the middle.

[Spec-944#70]

Freak24 You posted same time I did!! Sorry for MY misunderstanding!! Tim DOES want a National set but I sort of figured (wrong) that there was some middle ground we could all come too! Even if it only involved the 2.5's. Sort of feels like hitting your head repeatedly on a brick wall doesn't it? I just though since we have 70 cars here and you have 70 there now would be a great time to do the talk before NASA HAS to make a decision. Which they may or may not do! If they do one of our groups will be pissed!!

BTW you guys put up great articles in Grassroots!! Talk about free press!! Good on you guys!!

Thanks for the input as new info is aways a good thing,

[Tim Comeau]

Freek,

Sorry to refer to you like that, but you guys don't post your names....?

Maybe you could have saved the drivers, who switched to 2.7 engines, some money if you had had tighter rules. What a shame to have to go through that to discover it wasn't the engine. Waste of dollars.

I said the Spec guys out here "would kill me" if I suggested a new "Cup-style" class with open rules. How could I champion the idea of spec, then suggest we go away from it AND spend more money?

Also, I spoke with Dave Derecola late in 2002? He was interested in having me build his 944 Cup empire out here on the West Coast. Nothing wrong with that. I told him that I would rather work on my "Formula 944" Series and build my own empire. I then came into contact with Dan Webb and decided to jump onboard with NASA, rather than re-invent the wheel and split the 944 racing grids in the Southwest. I researched all the 944 sets of rules in existence and found 944 spec to be the best by far. That was in Jan of 2003? I believe I spoke with Dave again in April of 2003 when I was employed at Anderson Motorworks and we haven't spoken since. I have wished his series well on several forums. That is the extent of my "contact" with Dave. I don't remember EVER discussing a rules compromise with Dave. There was no need.

As far as doing "an end run" on you Cup guys, call it what you want. As a SoCal NASA official, I contacted NASA National officials in order to ask them to have all other NASA Chapters recognize and embrace an existing NASA class. We don't need to find a place for the 944 spec class to exist on the East Coast: it has a home within EVERY NASA chapter.

Since I can't get Dave to include the 944 spec class within his Cup series, I decided to leave that idea alone for a while and work on growing this class within the NASA organization alone. And yes, I'd like this class to be the National Standard for 944 racing within NASA.

I just thought it would be easier to build the class among an established group of 944 racing fans.