'08 TT rules

[phoenixR34]

 

The testing I've seen puts shaved RA1s within tenths of the shaved NT01s. The RA1s were usually faster on heavier cars. I think grouping them in the same points category is fair.

 

10-4. I've done back to back comparisons on two cars and they were within tenths of each other, usually being a complete toss (one day the RA1 is faster, NT01 being faster the next)

[StealthTT]

 

everyone will switch to shaved NT01s then and everyone will whine about those

 

 

Is that necessary in this conversation or can you be a gentleman?

[kbrew8991]

20 points for top of the line tires, then 7 and 5 as you go to slightly slower tires is pretty absurd

 

NASA already gets alot of sand kicked in thier face for being "Spec Toyo" with regards to AI, CMC, SpecE30, Spec Miata, and now Honda Challenge all being forced in the rules to run RA1s

 

with the tire rules like that, you'll effectivley do the same and take away choices which is the whole point of the TT/PT ruleset as I see it

 

I'd like to see guys with split tire sizes treated fairly. You think the guy with 205 fronts and 225 rears deserves to get more points when the guy with 215s all around puts down the same amt of rubber and doesn't take points?

[StealthTT]

Regardless of outside factors, the reduction in laptimes per mod point should be equal. The ruleset strives to match equal cars up. 10 points for Hoosiers and similar tires are a loophole in my opinion and laptime comparisons have proven it.

 

p.s. I'm on the fence on the split tire rule. Have you done testing both ways and found out how much it affects your laptimes?

[kbrew8991]

non-split sizes on a MK2 MR2... rofl. I would come out like I'd just been through a cycle in the washing machine. So by that logic, yeah I bet that does make me faster.. heh. Does it make me as fast as the Miata with 225s all around.. no... maybe if they had 215s all around and we took the same points

 

It sucks not just for my situation, but also for classic Porsches that run around "D" or so. a 225 front and 245 rear, they're giving up overall tire width to their competitors, and the Porsche guy ends up with width points while his competitors don't

 

I could dig up a few more examples if I had to

Edited August 17, 2007 by Guest

[kbrew8991]

 

everyone will switch to shaved NT01s then and everyone will whine about those

 

 

Is that necessary in this conversation or can you be a gentleman?

 

when you're a time trial director, you'll understand how "people whining" needs to be considered when rules are written

[Greg G.]

when you're a time trial director, you'll understand how "people whining" needs to be considered when rules are written

 

...and you've only been a TT Director for how many months?

[kbrew8991]

when you're a time trial director, you'll understand how "people whining" needs to be considered when rules are written

 

...and you've only been a TT Director for how many months?

 

since March, but I've also pretty much taken over the classing end of the PT series here as well by default...

 

its gotta REALLY suck on your end

 

its not that bad, but why write stuff people will whine about ya know?

[RACER-X]

 

And Kyle - when you said 'Argumentative layers with BMWs' was redundant did you mean argumentative lawyers or lawyers with BMWs?

 

All of the above.

[BrandonT]

I'd like to see guys with split tire sizes treated fairly. You think the guy with 205 fronts and 225 rears deserves to get more points when the guy with 215s all around puts down the same amt of rubber and doesn't take points?

 

Yes, I think split sizes do deserve more points. Manufacturers do this for a reason - because the car benefits from it.

 

From my Mk4 GTI days, I can tell you I REALLY needed the 245s in the front, and ran 4 of them for ease of rotating. But the rears didn't need to be that wide and I probably could have gone quicker with 225s in back. The 245s in back never got hot enough. If there were a points advantage then I would have been helping performance AND taking less points by downsizing the rears.

[kbrew8991]

downsizing the rears on a FWD to cheat having to setup the suspension properly isn't the same as running the sizes you need on an old Porsche

 

maybe theres a way to catch that, our engine location advantage is already taken care of in base classing, then we get double-whammied by not being able to put down the same amount of rubber overall as our front engine rear drive competitors

[L98Terror]

Great discussion, I don't know the ins and outs of mods but I would agree that the tire makes the biggest difference and I wouldn't be against a Hoosier or 710 being a 20 pt tire. Nothing drops time faster than a good tire.

 

everyone will switch to shaved NT01s then and everyone will whine about those

 

1 whole class for a set of tires is a bit on the steep side

Sorry let me be more clear

 

The number of points for tires should be increased acrossed the board

 

Maybe 20, 15 & 12 I don't know

 

Tell me what other mod you can get over 2 seconds and only use 10 points?

[L98Terror]

I'd like to see guys with split tire sizes treated fairly. You think the guy with 205 fronts and 225 rears deserves to get more points when the guy with 215s all around puts down the same amt of rubber and doesn't take points?

 

I agree 100%, it sould be the average tire size

[kbrew8991]

with my car, I can run 10 point tires if I go a little narrow, or I can run 5 pt tires and 5 pts in suspension (think Koni DA shocks, revalved, and massive springrates)

 

the extra 5 pts in tire won't make me as fast as the suspension, might even be a 2 second gain

[RACER-X]

Do we all agree on getting points back for being overweight? I want to see this happen. 1pt for every 20 lbs over what is posted in the TT car classifiyer, I think is fair.

[IndyWRX1]

The cost of running Hoosiers or really most DOT R compound tire can be mininmized by buying used tires, I get mine from as John Berget.

It has worked well for me. I spent $60 per tire for Hankook 214 full rubber. I was able to get about 4 events out of them. I just bought another set (this time Hoosiers) for $70 per tire.

This also gives me the chance to try different brands of tires to see what works best for my driving style and car, without breaking the bank.

btw, I agree with the point back thing for weight.

[L98Terror]

The cost of running Hoosiers or really most DOT R compound tire can be mininmized by buying used tires, I get mine from as John Berget.

It has worked well for me. I spent $60 per tire for Hankook 214 full rubber. I was able to get about 4 events out of them. I just bought another set (this time Hoosiers) for $70 per tire.

This also gives me the chance to try different brands of tires to see what works best for my driving style and car, without breaking the bank.

btw, I agree with the point back thing for weight.

 

A scurb is not = to a new tire

[Varkwso]

heck yes, i vote for vette's to have smaller tires and more weight added and possible 3 ***

 

I'll have a petition to that effect to sign at Mid Ohio next weekend!

 

Geez I feel punished enough already this year....glad to see you guys campaigning early!

[Slowwrx]

I think I should be able to run the STI in TTA even with an upgraded turbo....those vettes are really fast

[Varkwso]

I think I should be able to run the STI in TTA even with an upgraded turbo....those vettes are really fast

 

I got beat by a nicely prepped and nicely driven STi at Road Atlanta (it set the new TTA record also) two weekends ago. So I think their turbos are big enough!

 

He was killing me in grip coming out of the corners. 295 tires are a real limitation on a ZO6.

Edited August 21, 2007 by Guest

[Varkwso]

I think I should be able to run the STI in TTA even with an upgraded turbo....those vettes are really fast

 

I got beat by a nicely prepped and nicely driven STi at Road Atlanta (it set the new TTA record also) two weekends ago. So I think their turbos are big enough!

 

He was killing me in grip coming out of the corners. 295 tires are a real limitation on a ZO6.

[kbrew8991]

I think I should be able to run the STI in TTA even with an upgraded turbo....those vettes are really fast

 

your TTS record almost stood this past weekend, so to quote the other club

"The car is classed appropriatley"

 

- Ken, who just read that the MK1 MR2 was denied the move from ITA to ITB where it belongs and isn't happy about it

[Neon2dmaX]

Whether really sticky tires like the Hoosier or V710 deserve more points may deserve some attention, I am still having some difficulty reconciling some of the base classes. For example my Neon SOHC sedan has a base class of TTF* at 2428 lbs with 132 HP and 129 torque. By comparison, both the Nissan SE-R and the NX2000 (1991-1994) are classed as TTF with the SE-R at 2467 and the NX2000 at 2461 lbs. However, the NIssans both have 140 HP and 132 torque, and are equipped with a viscous limited slip which would cost me another 3 points.

 

Can't forget that the Nissan has 20 more HP and a bit more torque. Based on approved engine swaps, it appears that the additional 8 HP is good for at least 5 points.

 

Now, assuming that the 31 pound difference between my SOHC Neon sedan and the NX2000 would account for 2 points, the NX2000 has the equialent of a 13 point advantage over the Neon SOHC sedan calculated as follows: (1) delete * = 7 points; (2) add LSD = 3 points; (3) add 8 HP = 5 points; and delete 31 lbs = -2 points; for a net of +13 points.

 

Did I miss something here?

[1LapSRT]

I think I should be able to run the STI in TTA even with an upgraded turbo....those vettes are really fast

 

I thought you were making the move to TTU with even more HP?

 

We missed you at Rd Atl last weekend. It was just me and a fast Z06 fighting for weekend honors. I took Saturday and he took Sunday, while breaking your class record.

[loudes13]

both the Nissan SE-R and the NX2000 (1991-1994) are classed as TTF with the SE-R at 2467 and the NX2000 at 2461 lbs. However, the NIssans both have 140 HP and 132 torque, and are equipped with a viscous limited slip which would cost me another 3 points.

 

the nx is a STRONG car in the current rules. I think the mr2 is also. Nothing can be perfect. You have the chance to buy the nx, just like I should have

 

 

On the tires - Hoosier/Hankook/Kumho are the BIGGEST bang for the buck you can do to go faster. Yes they wear out, but so do street tires, RA1, or anything else. The fast guys on RA1's shave them to nothing, and throw them away after 2 weekends, just like Hoosiers. I'm not against harder tires, I love to drive on my street rubber (and not tow to the track).

 

btw Hankook Z214's are cheaper than toyos...