TTS Update

[GooRoo]

A TQ number is not useful in comparing POWER to weight.

 

Isn't the other way around?

 

as HP is calculated and TQ is measured

 

 

It's all simple physics really... Check this out... Many of their examples talk about cars and acceleration:

http://science.howstuffworks.com/fpte.htm

 

Here's a simple example: Would you rather have a car that has 400 ft/lbs of torque or 500 ft/lbs? Would your answer change if I told you that the 400 ft lbs is at 8000rpm and the 500 is at 2000 rpm? I think you'd rather have the 400 ft lbs since that is upwards of 600 hp! (and the 500 ft/lbs is only 190 hp) Without knowing the rpm, torque is useless for determining acceleration, and as we know from your formula, (torque x rpm)/5252 *is* horsepower.

 

This is all pretty offtopic though, so I'll stop posting about it.

[Falcon]

The whole point of racing is to push the limits requiring competitors to walk as close as possible to a very thin line as is prudent.

 

While you may be correct in your assumption that the lines in racing are always pushed, I think the whole issue in this case is a question of degree, not the fact that the very thin line was crossed. Was it pushed & crossed by 2 HP or 50 HP?

 

Inquiring minds would like to know, but will probably never discover.

 

The silence has been deafening.

[Varkwso]

Section 3, 2nd paragraph, in particular sentence 5, in the Official 2007 TT Rules, Version 4.5. Seems relevant here to me.

 

Making TT "self policing" has not helped this issue. I have seen misclassed cars at almost every TT I have been at. Some have been corrected - some were not.

[Shawn M.]

This is only done by turning the car off and flashing threw the programs,

not on the fly.

 

 

 

Thats not true. I can right now go out on my wifes Beetle and turn the cruise control switch to ON and have a race program run on the ECU. (APR chip/reflash.) Same thing for STi's, Evo's and other monster motor cars.

 

Its simple, you cant police that.

 

I say all turblow cars go right to TTU and be done with it.

 

(And NO, I dont have an APR chip on the Beetle, it has GIAC and it takes a flash loader to swap programs. )

 

 

While you may be correct in your assumption that the lines in racing are always pushed, I think the whole issue in this case is a question of degree, not the fact that the very thin line was crossed. Was it pushed & crossed by 2 HP or 50 HP?

 

 

if its 1hp over its out of spec by definition. (I dont know, is there a percentage of alowable overage in PT/TT for power??) So if someone is 1hp over what they should have, its a DQ. Simple as that in my book.

[BQuicksilver]

Shawn, I think the big question that still lingers is one of the honest guy some claim Pat is vs the outright cheat others feel he is here.

 

Everyone agrees he was out of spec and should be DQ'ed.

 

Again, the question is if this was an honest error pushing it a bit close to the limits, or if it was the case of a cheater nowhere near spec counting on NASA not dynoing his AWD car, or flashing the car between two tunes to sneak by.

 

If the latter is true, NASA should impose some action against Pat and let it be known cheating is not welcome.

 

I agree with Falcon: The silence is deafening...

[Shawn M.]

Shawn, I think the big question that still lingers is one of the honest guy some claim Pat is vs the outright cheat others feel he is here.

 

Everyone agrees he was out of spec and should be DQ'ed.

 

Again, the question is if this was an honest error pushing it a bit close to the limits, or if it was the case of a cheater nowhere near spec counting on NASA not dynoing his AWD car, or flashing the car between two tunes to sneak by.

 

If the latter is true, NASA should impose some action against Pat and let it be known cheating is not welcome.

 

I agree with Falcon: The silence is deafening...

 

 

I completely understand what you are saying.

 

Being one who works in a shop with a dyno, I can tell you that not all (and I dont care WHAT BRAND they are) dyno's produce the exact same number. Especially when you consider that Pat's car might likely have been dyno tuned in a hot dry environment then taken to a cooler moist environment where its able to produce more power with the exact same tune even on a different dyno.

 

I have heard from a few other drivers who said their dyno numbers at the track were elevated slightly from what they left home with. Thats what I know when im taking in the story of what happened and also knowing Pat as a competitor for the last 3-4 years, I seriously dont think he would purposly have more power than he is allowed. I know he likes to take full advantage of the rules and to me, thats a very smart move. But I also know he's not the kind of guy who doesnt want to show up at a national event with a car he knows isnt legal and try to pass it off as legit as many here would suggest.

 

I can see from the standpoint of someone who doesnt know him doesnt know what kind of character he has when it comes to racing. Ive seen it first hand before so his actions here dont surprise me here. On the contrary, the fact the car was not legal surprises me more. Its just one of those things.

 

I almost got DQ'd last year for a simple error in my mod sheet. The car was legal but I made a clerical error and it almost cost me 3 place in TTE! Was I trying to cheat? No not even, so those sort of things can and do happen.

 

I can also tell you that I can think of at least 10 people that were at the championships that I would highly suspect were cheating long before Pat.

 

Its not like were best friends or even friends for the matter. (he never calls me..!) He is just one of those guys I truly look forward to seeing again at the track. He has earned his good reputation amongst the Socal and Norcal drivers. Then there are Socal and Norcal (and one guy from Texas) drivers who I wouldnt think twice about putting into the nearest wall. So, FWIW.

 

Yes, if it can be proven (dont see how) that he intentionally showed up with as 700hp 1900lb (exaggeration but you get my point) car then yes he should be dealt with accordingly.

 

I dont know what the numbers are but I would suspect that the percentage that he is over is a small number. Thats my best guess but I doubt we will ever know what they are. Its really a moot point whatever the numbers were, its long been dealt with.

 

Im Shawn and your not.

[Spectator Racing]

Taking a look at the results, the top times in most classes were within 1.0 second of each other, with some classes having several drivers within 0.5 seconds. That's over three days! To me this shows that NASA has done a pretty good job classing our cars. As stated in this and other posts, the rules look pretty good and major modifications for the 2008 season should be tempered.

 

I have also seen many suggest outlawing or classing the turbo and AWD cars separately from the NA cars. As much as I hate EVO's (no offense, Clift ) I welcome the competition. If all I had to race against were cars just like mine it would be quite boring. I think most would agree that it's more fun and intense capatalizing on the strengths of one car vs. another. We have spec classes if you want to race the same thing as your opponent. All we need to help keep things fair are two things - the GPS loggers, and a 4WD dyno.

 

And lastly, regarding Lindseygate, I think a lot of you should think before you type. There are a lot of people defending or attacking Pat that weren't in the meetings, weren't in the class, don't know what really happened, in some cases, weren't even at the event . I do agree that this discussion is important, but not if it degrades into name calling and hear-say as opposed to discussion of facts, and more importantly, solutions.

 

This isn't just whether or not someone cheated, it's about how the situation was handled (poorly) and how it can be improved for the next time.

 

And for the record, I was in the meetings (both public and private), I am in the affected class (TTS), know most of what happened (except the closed-door NASA meetings), and was actually at the event...

[FlyingDutchMan]

. Was it pushed & crossed by 2 HP or 50 HP?

.

 

One can safely assume it wasn't 2hp based on the context- afterall a small margin would be well within testing error of chassis dyno, GPS etc and not raise any eyebrows and unlikely to initiate any protest.

 

Differences between chassis dyno's accorss the country is probably a 5-10% percent depending on calibration, test conditions, etc. So someone could easily find themselves within the rules on one dyno and several rwhp over or under on another. In my experience on 2WD dyno there's already 2-3rwhp variance on a single series of runs on the single dyno is a consistent dyno. Add to that typical margin the limited availability of AWD dynos the AWD guys probably have a higher margin of error to deal with in terms of fine tuning e.g it hard to test on the same brand of AWD dyno across country. In my experience on 2WD dyno there's already 2-3rwhp variance on a single series of runs on the single dyno is a "consistent dyno."

 

50hp is probably on the other end of the extreme and equally unlikely in this weekend's context.

 

Of course there is always a subconscious bias towards the latter conclusion on the part of any human competitor as it makes the slower driver feel better in that he/she can attribute their poor standing to a unlevel playing field rather than the equally likely, but more painful conclusion, that regardless of relative power output, they were, at least in part, out-driven.

[LSInnovations]

Also.......from having my own dyno and doing alot of turbo cars.

 

 

First pull on a dead cold turbo car that has been sitting and has no built up heat soak will put down HUGE #'s on a dyno pull on the first pull compared to following pulls.

 

 

If the audi was taken and dynoed dead cold I would guess it would dyno much more than if it was pulled straight off track after running. That alone could of caused higher than legal HP #'s that are not realistic and falsely represent DQ #'s that wouldnt have been true if an AWD dyno was at the track.

[Rogue Vette]

Also.......from having my own dyno and doing alot of turbo cars.

 

 

First pull on a dead cold turbo car that has been sitting and has no built up heat soak will put down HUGE #'s on a dyno pull on the first pull compared to following pulls.

 

 

If the audi was taken and dynoed dead cold I would guess it would dyno much more than if it was pulled straight off track after running. That alone could of caused higher than legal HP #'s that are not realistic and falsely represent DQ #'s that wouldnt have been true if an AWD dyno was at the track.

 

I seriously doubt the Dyno number he submitted to be classed was taken just after a 20 minute session.

 

The long and the short of it is this. There were many people who dyno'd their cars in classes and came up a few HP over on both Friday and Saturday. They were DQ'd and the appropriate points were given to them for their start position for Sundays race. Karl Troy was 2 HP over in 944 Cup and had top start 8th because of this. Faught his way back up on Sunday and won his class. and Dyno'd under. Pat was running the same lap times in Friday and Saturdays race as he was on Sunday. That tells me his power was over those days as well. and he too should have been DQ'd. Had he taken the offer to Dyno after Friday he could have made some adjustments assuming this was not intentional and ran a fair race on Sunday. He could have done the same on Saturday when a free Dyno was offered. Pat knew the claims. Pat knew that he should not be able to hold off Popp from corner exit to very high double digits in an 8.7 car. He knew this yet he did nothing.

 

In a conversation Pat told me and a few others his TQ was crazy high. and that he was at 340ish rwhp. When we were at the NASA meetings the NASA officials said the same things his TQ is very high, and yet when we asked if his Dyno run that he had submitted confirmed that, the answer was no it did not? That doesn't make sense. Pat refused to seal his port because he said he had to do some tuning? Why refuse to comply with a rule that everyone else in both classes did no question asked? That doesn't make any sense. He did seal it late Saturday. After tuning the car Thursday, Friday and untill 5pm on Saturday. Nobody else was tuning their car vis the port those days. Why were his ST race results not pulled those days?

 

Finally they gained some additional GPS information and that is when they knew something was seriously wrong. But everyone else knew this long before Sunday. It should not have taken that long for NASA or Pat to make things right. That is what causes most of the people I talk with to shake their heads at this situation. I am friends with a large number of the racers there in both ST and TT. And would have been racing myself if I had not broken my car at VIR and was unable to get my last events in to qualify. Any one of us would have taken our cars anywhere to prove we were within the rules if someone thought we were cheating, to prove otherwise. Pat flat refused to do so. In essense saying his word is gold, and don't question me. That didn't work out so well did it....

 

The whole thing is just ugly.

 

Again I don't think Pat is a bad person, he just made bad decisions. As did NASA with a few things. Hopefully in the future they will take people more serious when they have issues with a certain car. That's all we can ask really.

[QUASAR]

 

Personally I think that a team SHOULD be able to make tuning adjustments as needed. If you come from some place that has very high humidity then to low 60 degree low humidity race track, darn sure might want to change that program to get the most out of your engine.

 

If you are running that serious of an effort, and weather might be a factor, why can't you adjust the calibration at the event location before the event starts? Or in the case of AWD, adjust accordingly as close to the track as possible wherever that AWD dyno may be.

 

Everyone is in the same boat. If weather is going to be a factor, than you'll have to account for it somehow so you don't go over your HP limit.

 

 

 

 

 

Also.......from having my own dyno and doing alot of turbo cars.

 

 

First pull on a dead cold turbo car that has been sitting and has no built up heat soak will put down HUGE #'s on a dyno pull on the first pull compared to following pulls.

 

 

If the audi was taken and dynoed dead cold I would guess it would dyno much more than if it was pulled straight off track after running. That alone could of caused higher than legal HP #'s that are not realistic and falsely represent DQ #'s that wouldnt have been true if an AWD dyno was at the track.

 

 

No one knows the details, but I'd have to guess they made more than one pull. If it was me and it was a couple HP over, i'd beg and plead to get on another dyno somewhere.

[QUASAR]

..hold off Popp from corner exit to very high double digits in an 8.7 car. He knew this yet he did nothing.

 

[Falcon]

Was it pushed & crossed by 2 HP or 50 HP?

.

 

One can safely assume it wasn't 2hp based on the context- afterall a small margin would be well within testing error of chassis dyno, GPS etc and not raise any eyebrows and unlikely to initiate any protest.

 

That’s true. That small of a variance probably wouldn’t raise a concern, but it would be enough to be DQ’ed, if discovered, at least from qualifying positions.

 

There was one occasion at the Nationals, in the ST-2 class, where a very small (2-3 HP) variance disqualified a qualifying run, moving the participant to the back of the race field for the next qualifying race.

 

In an American Iron case, a competitor’s qualifying run was DQ’ed because of a 10HP spike on one pull, yet the other 2 pulls immediatley following were below the threshold. He was moved to the back of the starting field for the Championship race, and ruined most any chance he had for a podium.

 

Differences between chassis dyno's accorss the country is probably a 5-10% percent depending on calibration, test conditions, etc. So someone could easily find themselves within the rules on one dyno and several rwhp over or under on another. In my experience on 2WD dyno there's already 2-3rwhp variance on a single series of runs on the single dyno is a consistent dyno. Add to that typical margin the limited availability of AWD dynos the AWD guys probably have a higher margin of error to deal with in terms of fine tuning e.g it hard to test on the same brand of AWD dyno across country. In my experience on 2WD dyno there's already 2-3rwhp variance on a single series of runs on the single dyno is a "consistent dyno."

 

I agree that there are variances. On my dyno pulls, there’s a consistent 2 to 3 hp variance, but I allow for that or even a little more with my weight.

 

 

Of course there is always a subconscious bias towards the latter conclusion on the part of any human competitor as it makes the slower driver feel better in that he/she can attribute their poor standing to a unlevel playing field rather than the equally likely, but more painful conclusion, that regardless of relative power output, they were, at least in part, out-driven.

 

While that could be true, from the evidence we have right now it leaves that possibility suspect. We do know that the one crossing the finish line first in the race on Sunday was disqualified. So, maybe the 2nd and 3rd place drivers weren’t actually outdriven, but, in fact, victims of the unlevel playing field you mentioned.

 

50hp is probably on the other end of the extreme and equally unlikely in this weekend's context.

 

You may very well be right, but until something comes along to eliminate that as a possibility, many may consider that or even more as the variance.

[BQuicksilver]

Question: Aren't TTS drivers allowed to see the dyno results of competitors? Shouldn't those drivers be able to request these final dyno runs just as Pat could have looked up theirs at MO?

[JWL]

Folks-

 

Just to clarify, the AI competitor who lost his result was over on two out of three runs and no spikes were present in the readings. Since the AI rules mandate the highest pull must be used for compliance, there was no choice but to levy a disqualification at that time. Based on my talks with the AI driver, I believe it was an honest mistake on his part and I have no desire or reason to label him as a blatant cheater-he simply misestimated weight and also the effect of the "horsepower weather" on Saturday. He lost Saturday's result, but he still ended up in a reasonable start position and had a decent overall result with a shot at breaking into the top spots given his ability and the way the race played out. The competitor in question handled his DQ with grace and class and without a single whimper which made an unpleasant task for me much easier. When you tune it close to the max, you need to be dead sure that you're spot on and even leave a little cushion for burning more gas than expected or nice cool air that can give you more HP than you might have at home. We've seen this in AI for many years and the heads-up competitor visits both the dyno and the scales when they arrive and before the competition begins to make sure all is kosher.

 

To the debate at hand, this situation is indeed most unfortunate and regrettable for NASA, for Pat, and for the competitors in both ST2 and TTS. In my experience, Pat has been a straight up and honest guy in all my dealings with him over many years so this was indeed a shock to see. It breaks my heart that his car was out of spec and I think we have indeed learned some hard lessons on how to handle AWD cars in dyno-regulated classes, albeit at a great cost to all of those involved. We certainly apologize for any unrest this has caused among the competitors as it certainly was never our intent or goal to show any favoritism or ignore any fundamental problems with the system. We did what we could to address the problem and many things were indeed learned here. Rest assured that this situation will be a main topic of conversation among the ST/TT leadership during the off-season and we will do our best to ensure the parity and integrity of the series going forward.

 

-JWL

 

John Lindsey

Race Director, Group B

Chief Divisional Director

[1LapSRT]

Thank you Mr. Lindsey (coincidence I am sure...LOL) for the official update.

[JWL]

Right on. While I do call him "Cousin Pat" for grins, we don't share a drop of heritage.

 

-JWL

[Rogue Vette]

Folks-

 

To the debate at hand, this situation is indeed most unfortunate and regrettable for NASA, for Pat, and for the competitors in both ST2 and TTS. In my experience, Pat has been a straight up and honest guy in all my dealings with him over many years so this was indeed a shock to see. It breaks my heart that his car was out of spec and I think we have indeed learned some hard lessons on how to handle AWD cars in dyno-regulated classes, albeit at a great cost to all of those involved. We certainly apologize for any unrest this has caused among the competitors as it certainly was never our intent or goal to show any favoritism or ignore any fundamental problems with the system. We did what we could to address the problem and many things were indeed learned here. Rest assured that this situation will be a main topic of conversation among the ST/TT leadership during the off-season and we will do our best to ensure the parity and integrity of the series going forward.

 

-JWL

 

John Lindsey

Race Director, Group B

Chief Divisional Director

Nice response.

 

I do have one question.

 

How is it that Derek Whittis (spec Miata, TTU Noble) can get a rolling 4wd Dynojet (and a damn nice one I may add) to show up to a NASA Mid Atlantic event as a fun toy for all of us to play on, Yet NASA can't for nationals?

[Markus]

I do have one question.

 

How is it that Derek Whittis (spec Miata, TTU Noble) can get a rolling 4wd Dynojet (and a damn nice one I may add) to show up to a NASA Mid Atlantic event as a fun toy for all of us to play on, Yet NASA can't for nationals?

 

You'd probably have to look at the shop that brought the dyno and find out how far it was for them to go to that specific track. Portable dyno's aren't all that common, and portable AWD dyno's are probably less so.

 

- Mark

[Rogue Vette]

I do have one question.

 

How is it that Derek Whittis (spec Miata, TTU Noble) can get a rolling 4wd Dynojet (and a damn nice one I may add) to show up to a NASA Mid Atlantic event as a fun toy for all of us to play on, Yet NASA can't for nationals?

 

You'd probably have to look at the shop that brought the dyno and find out how far it was for them to go to that specific track. Portable dyno's aren't all that common, and portable AWD dyno's are probably less so.

 

- Mark

It was the valvoline rig, that I have seen at tracks from Road America to Hallet, to VIR.

 

They know nearly a year ahead of time when nationals are going to be, I know Derek has alot of pull but more then NASA?

[Markus]

They know nearly a year ahead of time when nationals are going to be, I know Derek has alot of pull but more then NASA?

 

I'm not saying it's a matter of pull, it's more a matter of cost. So that portable AWD dyno has been all up and down the east coast? That's one thing. But what if it's located in NC and they would have to tow 10 hours to OH? Think of fuel costs, hotel costs for a crew of 3-4 guys to run it, etc. That's alot different than that company towing 2 hours to VIR or 3 hours to RoadAtlanta.

 

I'm sure NASA would be more than willing to listen to offers from shops that had portable AWD dynos located right around the corner from MidOhio - I'm just not sure any exist.

 

- Mark

[cliftching]

My question is what will NASA do now?

 

Slap in the hand?

 

Probation?

 

How about the 2 guys that backed him 100%? I don't see them posting here.

 

Clift

[JWL]

Guys-

 

I am somewhat at a loss as I don't know Derek that well and I'm not sure how he secured that rig and how much bread it cost to get it there. Mark makes a fine point about costs and availability-both are big factors when we try to get a dyno to an event. However, since it is ultimately on us to ensure vehicle compliance, we will have to come up with a way to handle the AWD cars in power-to-weight classes at future events.

 

So, I am not looking to duck the fact that we do need a new plan for AWD cars and we will do better on this next year. I imagine Bryan Cohn will be pinging Derek to find out more about the portable AWD dyno in the coming months as we do indeed have a year to get this locked. Again, I deeply regret the stir this has caused and all I can ask for is some faith that we'll do better at the next Nats.

 

Thanks.

 

-JWL

[Rogue Vette]

Guys-

 

I am somewhat at a loss as I don't know Derek that well and I'm not sure how he secured that rig and how much bread it cost to get it there. Mark makes a fine point about costs and availability-both are big factors when we try to get a dyno to an event. However, since it is ultimately on us to ensure vehicle compliance, we will have to come up with a way to handle the AWD cars in power-to-weight classes at future events.

 

So, I am not looking to duck the fact that we do need a new plan for AWD cars and we will do better on this next year. I imagine Bryan Cohn will be pinging Derek to find out more about the portable AWD dyno in the coming months as we do indeed have a year to get this locked. Again, I deeply regret the stir this has caused and all I can ask for is some faith that we'll do better at the next Nats.

 

Thanks.

 

-JWL

 

Thanks.

 

As an FYI Derek had that Rig there for free to anyone who wanted to use it. I believe he also had them go to another track at some point this year for free dyno pulls. The thing is amazing. Plasma's outside that show everyone all the pulls, both sides open up, really a top notch thing.

[cliftching]

What if everyone go to the same dyno the day before Nationals.

AWD Mustang Dyno for all cars. Somewhere an hour away or closer.

 

Do your dyno , seal your port and boost controller if it's a turbo car and head to the track. After the competition go back to the same dyno place and see if you have the same numbers.

 

You don't even need all the car after nationals maybe the top six cars to go back.