2009 Rules

[nape]

I agree with the fact that windows should not be legislated out of the rules.

 

15.10 Windows / Window Nets

Unless class rules specify otherwise, vehicles should be operated with both side windows (driver and passenger) windows down (open). Note- rear side windows (e.g. four door vehicles) may be in the “up” or “down” position.

 

As far as the way it's written, should is a suggestion, not a mandatory word. If it needs to be mandatory, they need to change the qualifying word (can not, shall not, etc).

 

It's a personal preference, just like guys who build cages so they can still use the doors. The doors on my car are basically for show since the door bars come all the way up to the top of the opening. They open, but they won't help you get out of the car. Do you want to re-write the rules to make it mandatory for the doors to open just because you can use them on your car?

 

Quit arguing and let JWL post the rules so I can start the off-season planning!

[kurtborton]

now THAT's rich. Bad mouth all the guys that want to run one and then offer to sell them one.

 

This thread is beginning to look like the CMC forum.

 

I don't think he was bad mouthing anyone, just suggesting that if side windows are legal they need to be mounted with safety in mind.

[05 Ross]

Look around guys, no other race series permit side windows in cars similar to AI, why should NASA AI be different just because they put "should" instead of "shall" in the rules.

The argument that you don't have to use them is BS as drivers/I won't be willing to give up this aero advantage.

FYI closed cock-pit LeMans GT cars have a problem with driver fatigue from heat and carbon nonoxide, and are encouraged (weight break of 25 lbs) to have functioning air conditioning systems.

This is club racing, we don't need the look, hassel, expense of side windows.

 

Ross Murray AI 74

[swhiteh3]

A few of my thoughts:

 

*I run a side window. It's absolutely an aero advantage. (For those who aren't worried about advantages, I'd recommend they also run about 30-40hp short of the limit, or with stock springs.) I'd like to continue running it, because it IS an advantage, and not everyone does it. That said, I would not lobby against a rule change for this.

 

*NASCAR stock cars use passenger side windows on longer tracks. They are required to use a very expensive latching mechanism (about $200 each) to ensure they pop out easily. Numerous classes of endurance and GT cars also run passenger side windows.

 

*If your passenger side window can be removed easily by a courseworker who knows nothing about your car, then mostly likely your window is not secured properly against the aero forces involved. Windows popping out on track is a good way to contribute to on-track debris.

 

*I'm not sure this is a REAL safety issue, but I guess I could see how, in some extreme situation, it might be.

 

*Regardless of the safety implication, if everyone has the same rule, then it's not an advantage for anyone. Like so many of the aero rule discussions, if it's a rule that is enforced evenly among the field, then the only real arguments against it are self-serving, and those arguments rarely hold water against the better interests of the series.

 

Scott Whitehead

[Holster Maker]

Leave the rules alone..........Vlll !

[ST#97]

A few of my thoughts:

 

*I run a side window. It's absolutely an aero advantage. (For those who aren't worried about advantages, I'd recommend they also run about 30-40hp short of the limit, or with stock springs.) I'd like to continue running it, because it IS an advantage, and not everyone does it. That said, I would not lobby against a rule change for this.

 

 

I agree it's an advantage after seeing an incar video looking out the back of a CMC Firebird from our last event. The air pressure inside the car was so great, it was lifting the rear hatch of the car. Given our off season is so short, how about we say no side windows till June 1, 2009 while the powers that be come up with a safe solution that models what Scott is talking about as used in NASCAR. I realize it would be a closed spec for the device but it would guarantee a safe install for exiting the car as well as a safe install for the other drivers on track so we aren't dodging flying side windows. I would admit I currently have NO idea how to fab one to fit those two requirements.

 

Maybe Scott could post a tech article on how they do it so we ourselves are doing it correctly.

 

Just posting a smarter idea than just bickering about it.... carry on!

[swhiteh3]

I'd be glad to explain how it's done, but to be honest, I don't think it's applicable to our cars. In a stock car, the window frame is fabricated from scratch. The window slides forward into a slot which supports the window from the inside and the outside in the leading edge of the window - so that as long as the window is held forward it's held fast. For the rest of the window, it's held only on the inside face. Two safety clips are used at the trailing edge, with a hole drilled in the window so it can be easily actuated from the outside. The latches secure the window at the trailing edge to the frame supporting it from the inside. A pull cable connects the two latches, so from the inside simply pulling the cable actuates both latches. From the outside, the holes in the lexan allow the buttons (covered by bright orange tape for visibility) to be pressed to unlock the latches. Either way, once both latches are unlocked the window can be slid back and out, but it still requires some tugging - it does not just fall out.

 

The latches are similar to this, http://www.bsrproducts.com/shopexd.asp?id=6644&bc=nobut these don't have the extra tabs and pull cable to be legal. Two latches as a complete assembly is about $200.

 

The issue would be in the window frame. It would essentially require fabricating a full window frame, buying the latches, etc. I assume most people right now who run a window have installed it the way I did - by sliding the lexan in from the bottom into the existing window frame, which supports it from both the inside and the outside, and as long as the lexan is held "up", it's held in place. I guess if we were creative, you could come up with a mechanism where the window could be "dropped" from the outside by a corner worker, but if we're that concerned with it, I think it's easier to just make them illegal. Just my $0.02.

[ST#97]

I assume most people right now who run a window have installed it the way I did - by sliding the lexan in from the bottom into the existing window frame, which supports it from both the inside and the outside,

 

I am guessing you have a Fox car? SN95/99 don't have window frames... Makes it a little harder to deal with. Might have to look at how a prostock drag car does it for the newer cars....

[King Matt]

Pro Stock cars use the latches just like Scott posted. The lexan is usually supported by a fabricated frame attached to the upper part of the door. On an SN95 you could retain the stock window regulator mechanism and replace the glass with Lexan. Or for that matter, youo could just retain the stock side glass.

[FlyingDog]

Look around guys, no other race series permit side windows in cars similar to AI, why should NASA AI be different just because they put "should" instead of "shall" in the rules.

The argument that you don't have to use them is BS as drivers/I won't be willing to give up this aero advantage.

FYI closed cock-pit LeMans GT cars have a problem with driver fatigue from heat and carbon nonoxide, and are encouraged (weight break of 25 lbs) to have functioning air conditioning systems.

This is club racing, we don't need the look, hassel, expense of side windows.

 

Ross Murray AI 74

There are some SU and GTS cars that run with windows. There are PCA and I think BMWCCA cars that run with windows. What about V8 Supercar?

 

The ALMS problem is not with the GT cars (although they are required to comply with the new rules). The problem is with P1 and P2 cars. The preliminary rule (I haven't seen the final yet) was that if the cockpit temp was more than x (20 or 30?) degrees above track ambient, you had to add A/C. Electric A/C is cheaper and easier than designing in the ducts to cool the interiors on prototypes. The aero advantage of a closed cockpit with current rules outweighs the extra expenses required.

 

If you're really worried about the heat and want the aero advantage of windows... build a 12V A/C system. It should cost under $1000 to DIY.

[robbodleimages]

I think V8 Supercar is dead. They haven't had a turnout in a couple of years now. Their website is down aswell.

[FlyingDog]

Umm... http://www.v8supercars.com.au/ They even show races on Speed every once in a while when they run out of Nascrap to show.

[Grizlbits]

Side windows are out for 2009. But continue to exhume all the hot air you wish hashing it over, and over, and over.....

[robbodleimages]

Umm... http://www.v8supercars.com.au/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; They even show races on Speed every once in a while when they run out of Nascrap to show.

 

Ah....my bad. Thought you meant American V8 Supercars

[FlyingDog]

Side windows are out for 2009. But continue to exhume all the hot air you wish hashing it over, and over, and over.....

That rule is very poorly written and could be interpreted to say glass door windows are acceptable.

 

If you didn't keep trying to bury the hot air, nobody would have to exhume it.

[bdkline]

American V8 is alive and well. AV8SS.com and the site comes right up along with info to run with them at ARRC this weekend.

 

Barry

[robbodleimages]

my link has been dead in the water for a couple months. jokes on me, i guess

[Red Tornado]

JWL, just to clarify (this isn't being a wise ass but want to make sure) maximum wheel width is 9 1/2 regardless of rim correct?

 

17x10 would be ideal to clear things and for that fat tire so wanted to verify as I do have those rims laying around.

[Mystic_Cobra]

I saw a post indicating that a revised set of 2009 rules would be posted that showed changes highlighted from 2008. I don't see that anywhere. Am I missing something or is it not up yet?

[JWL]

Jimmy-

 

Check the main NASA site. They're up there.

 

-JWL