2009 PT/TT Rule Updates and Changes--12-19-08

[Greg G.]

Ok guys and gals, I thank you for your patience as this has been a long process, with input from a lot of people. We have made multiple improvements to the PT and TT Rules for 2009. I will list the major changes below. The actual TT Rules will not be posted for at least a few more days, but the PT and ST Rules should be posted sometime today, and all of the classing rules will continue to be identical between TT and PT. Updated Car Classification Forms will also be at least a few more days. We hope that you will agree that we have moved in a positive direction with these rules. As you will see, we have seriously taken into account your input over the years. Thanks, and have a great season in 2009!

http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/2009/pt.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/2009/PT-2009-Changes.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

2009 PT/TT Rule Change Highlights

Both “strike-through” and “clean” versions of the rules are posted so participants can see the wording from ’08 that was deleted more clearly. See the rules for the exact wording and details of each of the following (these are just notes):

 

1) All ported rotary engine cars will be re-classed based on Dyno testing

2) All cars will be subject to a limitation of their “Adjusted” wt/power ratio using the ST/TT formula. Dyno testing is not required for all cars prior to competition, though.

3) Individual cars may be re-classified by the National PT Director based on Dyno testing.

4) A few cars have been bumped up in points by one asterisk (about 10)

5) All forced induction cars that are not re-classified based on Dyno testing will add five (5) points to the total number of modification points.

6) All weight reduction points will be determined by the actual minimum competition weight of the vehicle versus its listed base weight.

7) ECU reprogramming and chips are now a No-Points modification. The OEM ECU/PCM box/housing/hardware must be used, though.

Similarly, SAFC’s and VAFC’s, and altered sensor inputs are No-Points mods.

9) Independent throttle bodies are a +4 modification.

10) Deletion of the intake manifold is assessed points.

11) Modification/upgrade from a fixed to a floating rear axle is +3 points.

12) Front and rear strut tower bars with two attachment points are No-Points mods. This includes bars built into a cage.

13) Adding a lower stress bar is a +1 point modification.

14) Non-OEM driver adjustable sway bar or suspension settings are a +4 point modification.

 

17) Any front fascia or air dam modification is +3 points.

18) Any front splitter is +3 points.

19) Any added, replaced, or modified rear wing or spoiler is +4 points (and no wing or spoiler can be higher than 8 inches above the roofline, or wider than the body of the vehicle).

20) Any rear bumper cover or rear “fascia” modification is +1 point.

21) Removal of the front windshield/windshield frame is +7 points (namely for convertibles).

22) Front side window air dams or diverters are +2 points.

23) Lexan front side windows are prohibited unless they are installed by the factory during the original manufacturing of the vehicle.

24) Hub modification/replacements are No-Points mods.

25) E-85 is a legal fuel to use if obtained from a retail site.

26) No-Points ballast limitation has been raised to 250 lbs.

27) Steering rack ratio changes (without steering geometry changes) are a No-Points modification.

28) Non-OEM valve springs and retainers were retained from the Provisional rule in ’08 as a No-Points modification.

29) Ignition timing is specifically listed as No-Points (has been free already)

30) Dyno reports that are submitted by competitors may be valid for up to three years. However, the Regional PT/TT Director may request updated Dyno sheets (testing at the owners expense) that are less than one year old.

31) Drivers may be required to have their class letters on the inside of their front window (PT only), so that other drivers can determine the car class in their rearview mirror.

32) The formula for calculating “Adjusted” wt/power ratio has been changed to allow up to 9.6” non-DOT tires in the +0.8 modification factor listing.

33) Two “pre-approved” motor swaps have been deleted. These cars will need to be classed based on Dyno testing (both were JDM motors).

34) Provisional technical bulletins on the RX-7 were made official.

[jason]

Thank you!

[ff2skip]

Thank you!

Ditto.

 

If I have a question regarding points-assessed in general, do I air it here or do I send a PM?

[TurboShortBus]

Thanks, Greg!

 

Mark

[phoenixR34]

2) All cars will be subject to a limitation of their “Adjusted” wt/power ratio using the ST/TT formula. Dyno testing is not required for all cars prior to competition, though.

 

I'm dying to know what these limits are..

[Meat]

I may be completely blind, but where are these new rules posted?

[TurboShortBus]

The actual TT Rules will not be posted for at least a few more days, but the PT and ST Rules should be posted sometime today...

[Tom A]

PT is up.

http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

Here is hoping you don't have any aero mods, my simple front air dam/splitter doubled in points.

 

On edit: why are there points for Lexan windows, under Suspension? Shouldn't they be free, as long as the car makes weight?

[cosm3os]

Nice work, Greg. Well, glad I'm moving to GTS, cause the new base points killed my TT set up!

[Shawn M.]

PT is up.

http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

Here is hoping you don't have any aero mods, my simple front air dam/splitter doubled in points.

 

On edit: why are there points for Lexan windows, under Suspension? Shouldn't they be free, as long as the car makes weight?

 

 

Tom, this was taken directly from the directors email about the posting of the rules from Greg:

 

Another area that has already come up is the rationale for assessing the +1 point for Front Lexan windshield, and +1 point for rear Lexan window or removal in the Chassis modification section. You already know that this modification is largely being accounted for in the weight reduction section based on the minimum competition weight of the vehicle. A question came up in the rules revision process regarding the benefit of replacing the windshield and rear window glass with Lexan, and the improvement in the roll center of the vehicle by taking weight off high up. More specifically, the example was brought up of a car that changed out both of those windows with Lexan, and then added back an equal amount of ballast in a low/ideal spot on the vehicle. There would be no assessment for weight reduction (or free ballast), but there could be a decent improvement in the car's handling and lower roll center. The small assessment of +1 for each was added to decrease the incentive for all drivers to "have to" do this upgrade to keep up with their competitors.

[Tom A]

I stuck a updated version of the Excel TT/PT spreadsheet online.

 

I can't remember who did the original, but I found it on one of the these forums a couple years ago.

 

http://www.shedracing.net/misc/2009_pt_ttclassing.xls

 

Enjoy.

[RockLobster]

Very welcome changes for me, this took my mostly stock 2nd gen RX-7 from TTA to TTC without changing a thing...

 

I have skipped NASA events the last few years because of how unfavorable the rules were to my particular setup.

[Greg G.]

Very welcome changes for me, this took my mostly stock 2nd gen RX-7 from TTA to TTC without changing a thing...

 

I have skipped NASA events the last few years because of how unfavorable the rules were to my particular setup.

 

That doesn't make sense, unless you have already sent me a request to get a new base class for the car based on Dyno testing. The limit on each class for adjusted wt/hp is just a final test to make sure that each car has been prepped fairly using the current classing system. It does not mean that you can just max out the adjusted wt/hp for whatever class you choose based on that formula and ignore the modification points. It may be possible that your car is a TTC (or TTB) car if it has a street or bridge port. I'm not sure how it could have been a TTA car for a "mostly stock" 2nd gen RX-7 anyway. All of them that we have seen with street ports and other mods have been TTB cars.

[kbrew8991]

might've been doing points for parts as well - I've seen alot of people screw them self with that method (or take BOTH sets of weight reduction points.. yikes)

[RockLobster]

Perhaps i misunderstand then. Forgive me if this is not the place to post hypothetical situations under the new rules.

 

Good to raise the question IMO.

 

As i understand it with a ported (small street port) motor the car gets re(base)classed based on dyno testing and competition weight (plus other factors). Thus the weight and engine/power modification sections are not applicable? Car weights 3150 with me in it (1/4 tank of fuel). I tune for about 260 at the wheels best case (dynojet). This moves the base class of the car from TTD to TTC?

 

If that is indeed how it works then I get 26 pts to play with in the other areas (I am running 225 tires). My aero/tire/suspension modifications equal worst case about 18pts.

 

Last year, because I have a stock turbo, I could not get re-base classed therefore started in with a TTD car and had to add 63 points for ALL the modifications of which perhaps only 2-3 pts was weight reduction (if i recall correctly) due to removing parts lighter seats etc (even though my car stock is 200lbs heavier than the listed weight (Turbo II) WITHOUT me in it. The competition weight of MY car is still 300lbs heavier than the stock listed weight for a Turbo II. The silly thing was if i would have modified or swapped my turbo i would have likely dropped one class last year. Most of my engine/drivetrain mods are longevity/reliability not performance.

 

My car would not be competitive in TTB or TTA. It's a heavy pig with very narrow rubber, and my torque curve is almost completely linear. That's the thing about rotaries if its just peak power to weight ratio type rules the area under the torque curve vs a piston engine is very often less, giving pistons a rule advantage. Which is fine,we all understand there has to be quantitative rules somehow.

 

Aside question about rotary powered cars: Why is the 09 RX-8 getting hit with 7pts right off the bat vs the 08 and earlier models? The only things they changed were superficially cosmetic...otherwise the car is exactly the same...(base model vs base model)

[Greg G.]

"The 2009 Mazda RX-8 receives updated exterior and interior styling, improved handling, better acceleration and new technology features. Exterior changes include new front and rear bumpers, redesigned headlights, new 18-inch alloy wheel design, LED taillights, larger exhaust tips and a rear lip spoiler when equipped with a manual transmission...All trim levels include improved body rigidity, revised rear suspension geometry...."

 

The older models were already at the borderline of getting bumped up. We elected to leave them where they are. Any improvements tipped them over the top.

[Greg G.]

As i understand it with a ported (small street port) motor the car gets re(base)classed based on dyno testing and competition weight (plus other factors). Thus the weight and engine/power modification sections are not applicable? Car weights 3150 with me in it (1/4 tank of fuel). I tune for about 260 at the wheels best case (dynojet). This moves the base class of the car from TTD to TTC?

 

If that is indeed how it works then I get 26 pts to play with in the other areas (I am running 225 tires). My aero/tire/suspension modifications equal worst case about 18pts.

 

Last year, because I have a stock turbo, I could not get re-base classed therefore started in with a TTD car and had to add 63 points for ALL the modifications of which perhaps only 2-3 pts was weight reduction (if i recall correctly) due to removing parts lighter seats etc (even though my car stock is 200lbs heavier than the listed weight (Turbo II) WITHOUT me in it. The competition weight of MY car is still 300lbs heavier than the stock listed weight for a Turbo II. The silly thing was if i would have modified or swapped my turbo i would have likely dropped one class last year. Most of my engine/drivetrain mods are longevity/reliability not performance.

 

First, when you said it was a stock second gen RX-7, we didn't think you were talking about a Turbo II, which obviously will end up in a higher class than a stock second gen RX-7 13B. I can re-class your car by Dyno, but it doesn't get done by you choosing to run at the maximum limit of a given weight to horsepower ratio and then taking 19 points for free (which is what I think you are proposing?) You send me an e-mail with the request for re-classing, with the car year, make, model, Dynojet numbers, and minimum competition weight (with driver). I then send you an Official re-classing e-mail that you will turn in with your Car Classification Form to your Regional TT/PT Director, and keep a copy with the vehicle log book. I did the calculations for you, and with your vehicle, at 262 max Dynojet rwhp, and a minimum competition weight of 3150 lbs, your base class would be TTC**/PTC**, with a new base tire size of 255mm. So, you are correct that you benefited significantly from the new rules, and it looks like you will get 7 points credit for tire size. So, you only have 12 points to play with, unless we lower the hp or increase weight limits to try and re-class at a lower level (TTC*)

[GooRoo]

"The 2009 Mazda RX-8 receives updated exterior and interior styling, improved handling, better acceleration and new technology features. Exterior changes include new front and rear bumpers, redesigned headlights, new 18-inch alloy wheel design, LED taillights, larger exhaust tips and a rear lip spoiler when equipped with a manual transmission...All trim levels include improved body rigidity, revised rear suspension geometry...."

 

The older models were already at the borderline of getting bumped up. We elected to leave them where they are. Any improvements tipped them over the top.

 

The styling changes are 0 points since they offer no performance benefit.

The improved handling is marketing hyperbole.

The better acceleration is due to a rear gear change that according to the rules is free.

The bumpers are cosmetic updates, as are the headlights, wheels, taillights, exhaust tips and rear lip spoiler and all offer no performance benefit.

There is a slight change to the engine cradle that is a minimal benefit since the front strut brace which provides a significant benefit is now free..

There is slightly changed rear suspension geometry that also is a very minor update since the 'old' 4 link setup was already very good and gained camber in bump.

 

Seems like the new 8's will have a large (7 points is street tires-> R888s) disadvantage in TT/PT.

[Greg G.]

FYI, the Lexan front and rear window rule was reversed

[mrc24x]

FYI, the Lexan front and rear window rule was reversed

 

 

Thanks! Merry Christmas

[vpnwiz]

Seems like the new 8's will have a large (7 points is street tires-> R888s) disadvantage in TT/PT.

There were two of these in my class at Nationals this year. They finished 1-2. I didn't have any input to the change but I am glad Greg and co. were watching! I agree that ANY changes to the RX8 should not go unnoticed. Ignoring everything else you wrote, the new rear suspension geometry merits +something... the car is on the edge and 7 is the minimum. I think if anyone is crazy enough to race or TT an '09 RX8 they deserve the points. And the older 8's will continue to be uber-competitive. It's not a loss by any means.

 

Patrick

[s2k4TTC]

so why the huge points add to the s2000's. Cuz they wont be able to compete in TTB/PTB @ a national Level.

[Greg G.]

so why the huge points add to the s2000's. Cuz they wont be able to compete in TTB/PTB @ a national Level.

Technically, there were no points added if one is using an ECU reflash. The car was moved up from ** to the next class (6 points, but increased base tire size by 10mm which is equal to either 1 or 3 points depending on the tire size used). ECU's that were 5 points are now free. So, for S2K's with ECU reflashes, they are either equal to last year, or two points better than last year. So, with the S2000's being a dominant force in TTB at the National level in the past, there is no reason that they won't be in the future.

 

We realized early into 2008 that Honda Challenge had appropriately recognized the benefits of the 2.2L later model S2000's, and gave them a 100lb higher minimum weight than the 2.0's. We did not give them a heavy enough assessment in PT/TT. We considered bumping them up at that time, but decided that the season had started, and we really do not like bumping car classes mid-season. So, they were slated for the bump since early in 2008. The excellent job that you did at the Championships in TTC w/o an ECU reflash, combined with the new rules that has bumped out some of the major competitors that were in TTC (or they have to add weight or detune, etc), just reaffirms our previous decision. As well, the new rules would have permitted the same car to run with a reflashed ECU--again reaffirming our original decision.

[RockLobster]

First, when you said it was a stock second gen RX-7, we didn't think you were talking about a Turbo II, which obviously will end up in a higher class than a stock second gen RX-7 13B. I can re-class your car by Dyno, but it doesn't get done by you choosing to run at the maximum limit of a given weight to horsepower ratio and then taking 19 points for free (which is what I think you are proposing?) You send me an e-mail with the request for re-classing, with the car year, make, model, Dynojet numbers, and minimum competition weight (with driver). I then send you an Official re-classing e-mail that you will turn in with your Car Classification Form to your Regional TT/PT Director, and keep a copy with the vehicle log book. I did the calculations for you, and with your vehicle, at 262 max Dynojet rwhp, and a minimum competition weight of 3150 lbs, your base class would be TTC**/PTC**, with a new base tire size of 255mm. So, you are correct that you benefited significantly from the new rules, and it looks like you will get 7 points credit for tire size. So, you only have 12 points to play with, unless we lower the hp or increase weight limits to try and re-class at a lower level (TTC*)

 

Ok, that makes sense. I was honestly more trying to understand the rules than anything. I only played with last years rules until i ended up so outclassed that it really wasn't worth working on it anymore, and thus never really looked into it further.

 

One other question: If a car gets re-baseclassed on dyno/scales numbers do other points affecting engine performance (HP) still get applied?

 

I do think NASA is a great outfit and look forward to HPDEs this year!

[RockLobster]

Seems like the new 8's will have a large (7 points is street tires-> R888s) disadvantage in TT/PT.

 

From a realistic standpoint I would agree. One would be foolish to run an 09 vs an earlier model. You just gimp yourself 7 points.....

 

Change the rear gear in an 08 and you basically have the same car performance wise...