Grizlbits Posted July 27, 2010 Share Posted July 27, 2010 We already have a 2010 mustang running a 2011 Coyote motor in our area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat L. Posted July 27, 2010 Share Posted July 27, 2010 Does WC GTS have any age limits on the car? I remember when the Fox body was kicked out because of its age. Yes, I believe it is something like 4 years after the last model year. Then it goes to partial eligibility for three more years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nape Posted July 27, 2010 Share Posted July 27, 2010 To run a 2011 5.0 Mustang in AI demands some serious rule changes. Cheers Bryan Faessler has been running one already this year. It seems to fit very well in the class. He got his first win on Sat @ Mid-Ohio and ran 3rd on Sunday. Before every gets out their Jump to Conclusions Mat on rule changes, we need to see what they do in class legal trim. Changing rules based on what cars look like on paper is a for sure way to hurt the class. We had 9 AI cars @ Mid-Ohio this past weekend with a couple more in the pipeline running AIX and taking the comp school. What we need is rules stability to keep the growth going. This was just a regular regional race, nothing special. I'd expect that number to almost double in 3 weeks when the Challenge Series - East field rolls into town. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pederb Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 To run a 2011 5.0 Mustang in AI demands some serious rule changes. Cheers Bryan Faessler has been running one already this year. It seems to fit very well in the class. He got his first win on Sat @ Mid-Ohio and ran 3rd on Sunday. Before every gets out their Jump to Conclusions Mat on rule changes, we need to see what they do in class legal trim. Changing rules based on what cars look like on paper is a for sure way to hurt the class. We had 9 AI cars @ Mid-Ohio this past weekend with a couple more in the pipeline running AIX and taking the comp school. What we need is rules stability to keep the growth going. This was just a regular regional race, nothing special. I'd expect that number to almost double in 3 weeks when the Challenge Series - East field rolls into town. What HP does the dyno sheet show and how much does it weigh? There are several reports of the 5.0 producing well over 400 rwhp so in that case it should weigh close to or over 4000lbs? Sound kind of heavy for a race car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nape Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 What HP does the dyno sheet show and how much does it weigh? There are several reports of the 5.0 producing well over 400 rwhp so in that case it should weigh close to or over 4000lbs? Sound kind of heavy for a race car. If I remember right, he was in the 330-340hp range. Just because a motor makes a certain HP uncorked, doesn't mean that's the only number it can make. CMC cars run restrictor plates all the time, why not an AI car? We're all under the same banner now, might as well use similar means of managing HP. Changing the rules for newer cars isn't a very attractive option for the large fields of already built cars. Allowing significantly more HP nearly necessitates 14" brakes or thicker then 1.25" (off-the-shelf @ NAPA) rotors. I finally get 6 events out of pads and rotors. Going through consumables faster then that blows budgets really fast. 14" brakes aren't a huge deal since we already allow it, but they do make a $2000/set of 17" wheels or cheap 18" wheels mandatory. How many racers have priced 275/35/18 Toyo RA1s? A set of (4) tires shaved is damn near $1600. Rules changes that increase HP would be a slippery slope for sure. One that the low-buck guys probably don't have the means to climb. Signed, The guy who sold new Toyos to afford the gas to tow to Mid-O and race on used ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbrown8439 Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 What HP does the dyno sheet show and how much does it weigh? There are several reports of the 5.0 producing well over 400 rwhp so in that case it should weigh close to or over 4000lbs? Sound kind of heavy for a race car. We have had several stock 2011 Mustangs on our dyno and all of them made low to mid 360's at the wheels. Just about perfect for the average "heavy" S197 Mustang. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pederb Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 What HP does the dyno sheet show and how much does it weigh? There are several reports of the 5.0 producing well over 400 rwhp so in that case it should weigh close to or over 4000lbs? Sound kind of heavy for a race car. We have had several stock 2011 Mustangs on our dyno and all of them made low to mid 360's at the wheels. Just about perfect for the average "heavy" S197 Mustang. Cool, so I guess all the high rwhp we have seen on the web where just bogus. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brucebyerly Posted July 29, 2010 Share Posted July 29, 2010 What HP does the dyno sheet show and how much does it weigh? There are several reports of the 5.0 producing well over 400 rwhp so in that case it should weigh close to or over 4000lbs? Sound kind of heavy for a race car. If I remember right, he was in the 330-340hp range. Just because a motor makes a certain HP uncorked, doesn't mean that's the only number it can make. CMC cars run restrictor plates all the time, why not an AI car? We're all under the same banner now, might as well use similar means of managing HP. Changing the rules for newer cars isn't a very attractive option for the large fields of already built cars. Allowing significantly more HP nearly necessitates 14" brakes or thicker then 1.25" (off-the-shelf @ NAPA) rotors. I finally get 6 events out of pads and rotors. Going through consumables faster then that blows budgets really fast. 14" brakes aren't a huge deal since we already allow it, but they do make a $2000/set of 17" wheels or cheap 18" wheels mandatory. How many racers have priced 275/35/18 Toyo RA1s? A set of (4) tires shaved is damn near $1600. Rules changes that increase HP would be a slippery slope for sure. One that the low-buck guys probably don't have the means to climb. Signed, The guy who sold new Toyos to afford the gas to tow to Mid-O and race on used ones. Well said. Let's please stay where we are in terms of power to weight. If you have a 450hp motor, great, choke it down a bit. Look at spec miata, for example. They give parity to several engines with restrictors. The problem is, of course, without dyno rules it requires some relatively big $ to be on top and naturally leads toward A Sedan style issues. I like the AI system. If someone wants to build/sell a 400hp motor, let me know At this point, I'm thinking the new 5.0 sounds like a good solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holster Maker Posted July 29, 2010 Share Posted July 29, 2010 Peder, A lot of diff between flywheel and rwhp, the mid 360's is right for it's flywheel power, not bogus! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Tornado Posted July 29, 2010 Share Posted July 29, 2010 They all make mid 360's and are ideal for a TB restrictor to bring down hp and up trq. So brand new stock motor should be super reliable also is my thinking. Nice that technology marches forward but also "vintage" fox bodies can still win any given weekend it seems. Many alarmists out there always panicking about death of class and massive rule changes. Todd and John before him have done a fantastic job of staying tried and true with really only tweaks to the rules that adjust for newer cars or better safety in my mind. I think Todd's post is dead on perfect. More options and partnerships are always a great thing for racing. I will likely run AI in many regions next year and do some local world challenge (mayne 2-3 events) if possible. As for the topics of GTS I have talked to a number of folks on world challenge side who are partnering with NASA and ford and trust me when I say they really have thought it all thru very very well. Inexpensive head and cam and intake package from ford makes 375rwhp and you can get those cars down 200lbs from the 3,600lbs they sit in MC trim also so figure 8.7 to 1 power to weight or so. They can run suspension like our's so that should help and boom you probably just found 2 seconds. Yes that may mean all you do to run AI is add back your ballast or a TB restrictor. They have heard from the racers and listened about cheap and easy and for under $10k u can modify a MC car or just build the right car to start with from a new model it appears. Have not heard absolute answer on age question but usually 5 years is the mark for being eligible or they just class out older cars with rules. So you can run just dont expect to always win. All sounds pretty damn good if you ask me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slammed_93_hatch Posted July 29, 2010 Share Posted July 29, 2010 John Heinricy drove away from the realtime boys at Mosport this year. So a T1 car can be more than "competitive" The realtime cars that PD and Nick are running right now were developed in '09 for the dumbed down version of touring car that the class was supposed to morph into. So cars from '08 (that we're basing GTS times on) should be a tick faster since they get to lose the ballast in GTS. Only one realtime TSX is running in GTS that was prepared to those crazy old touring car rules, but it's a rental car for whoever gets the itch to run. Unfortunately only Brandon Davis has been talented enough to run the car to its potential during the first race of the year and he started at the back with no practice or qualy time. The point I'm making is that yes, I'm sure a mustang challenge car would be competitive. Are you going to show up and beat PD's touring car out of the box? Doubtful. The R888 is a disaster of a race tire and it'd take a bit of time for even a savvy AI competitor to get it to work. SCCA Pro works with teams and pours over a lot of data to level the playing field. And on a bad note: the world challenge cars tend to pick up roughly a second on each respective track year to year. So you might consider knocking a couple seconds off the miller lap times just to be safe. World Challenge goes back to Miller this year. Wouldn't that be an awesome place to debut some mustangs?!?! I don't know the rear of the new TSX, so maybe they didn't relocate anything, but the front is the exact same as the older generation. Modified subframe, LCA, UCA, shock attachment point, the whole 9 yards. The rear is new/different from the old cars, and i haven't spent much time under a new TSX so i couldn't tell you if it was the same or different. The motor is the exact same as the old motors too. Hovering around 300whp. the mazdaspeed3 was really the only thing built to the new rules, or that was given an honest attempt at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat L. Posted July 29, 2010 Share Posted July 29, 2010 The new TSX ran 100lbs lighter than the Mazda's and it's older counterpart... so if it really wasn't built to the new rule set, I think you'd have some very pissed off people running around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slammed_93_hatch Posted July 29, 2010 Share Posted July 29, 2010 The new TSX ran 100lbs lighter than the Mazda's and it's older counterpart... so if it really wasn't built to the new rule set, I think you'd have some very pissed off people running around. Look at the VTS, same motor, same specs. Maybe the 100lbs was because the rear suspension isn't relocated on the rear. But the front end could be swapped between the two. Who exactly was happy at the end of last year? Besides Pete C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat L. Posted July 30, 2010 Share Posted July 30, 2010 The front subframe was a TL part number which was necessary for "header clearance" IIRC. Quite a bit of controversy over that p/n at the last race. The suspension pickup points were not moved (front and rear) so that the new cars conformed to the new rules package (in an effort to cut the development costs), thus the weight break. We petitioned to run our Mazda 6 suspension bits in the stock location for the same weight break, but were told "no dice". Obviously the new TSX ran the same motor/trans setup as it was grandfathered in and made a lot of monetary sense for the team to keep the development and spares package costs down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Algozine Posted August 4, 2010 Share Posted August 4, 2010 General Observation - Not attemting to start another debate (we can haggle in November) Interesting that AI cars are getting compared to current World Challenge. I remember several year end rules discussions about allowing more extreme mods in AI vs. the KISS method. As I recall, the thinking was to compare AI to World Challenge a few years ago in an attempt to push for more extreme mods. Now look at the World Challenge rule changes that have been made in order to save the series. Which is keep the extreme and costly mods out and maintain more stock looking features, so more guys can afford to stay in the game. Many of us have been campaigning the same for AI throughout the years of discussion. Cubic dollars can be spent in AIX. Just saying Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevepoe Posted August 5, 2010 Share Posted August 5, 2010 I've spent the better part of the last week looking into World challenge , it's costs and what it brings for the ai crowd. my conclusion. it's brings nothing after talking with the series guy at world challenge this is a joke for ai for the most part. The joke being allowing ai cars into world challenge. Not going to happen guys. 1st . it's really only set up for newer cars 05 up mustangs and Camaros for the most part. In my opinion of what happened. mustang Challenge went bye bye. Probably pissing off some guys with deep pockets that have invested some good money into cars to run that series. I wouldn't doubt if some are lawyers or know pretty good lawyers. world challenge is trying to stay alive and seen a buisness opportunity to get some more cash."nothing more" Ford seen a opportunity to offer Mustang challenge guys a place to race together in a professional "so called" series . I'm guessing to keep from probably someone trying to sue the shit out of them .Plus ford has a chance to sell more crap to them because as it stand the 500s cars will get beat down bad in it's current configuration. no s197 cars that are extremely light like mine, no s197 cars with push rod motors. Basically the only ai cars are mustang challenge cars. how ai got attached to this is beyond me. from what I've been told from World challenge not one ai legal car would be legal in gts that Iknow of except for maybe Brian groths new camaro. Hell, they don't even know which way is up in what is going to be allowed and not allowed for gts. my car is not even legal in world challenge and it's a 4.6 s197 car . this mid ohio weekend is going to be the only time the 500s car is going to have it's own podium finish. after that it's gts. after watching the Canada race on versus it's even more of a joke. 2600-3600 weekends for what ? The tv coverage sucks. think scca run offs. not your continental tire coverage. You can't make heads or tails out of what is going on in the race except for the gt field. it was like watching pt or tt race. A corvette and acura tsx and a lotus . The only car that looked like a race car was the acura. The corvette ran away from everyone and the lotus beet the acura. the corvette and lotus looked like they ran in nasa tt weekend. no flow no nothing. it was like sitting on a bleacher watching hpde run around the track. GTS That is . The gt field is another Story. some impressive looking cars this is all about money with Ford the mustang challenge series and world challenge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted August 5, 2010 Author Share Posted August 5, 2010 I guess you don't like the idea, eh steve? I brought it up. Maybe I am an idiot. I brought it up because it fit my car and i figured that I was not the only one. I have an FR500C spec car who's current dyno sheet makes it AI legal. I know there are FR500S cars that run our series as well. Further, its my impression that the AI cars that Dean Martin has built are also GTS legal. Dean's build is a basic AI spec build. Its true that you built your car in a different direction to Dean's cars because you chose to go lightweight. I mentioned in the initial postings that this would likely be only current plateform cars. Yes, the S cars will need horsepower. That brings them up to AI specs if they make those changes. Another reason why this idea came to mind. Maybe it was a bad idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizlbits Posted August 5, 2010 Share Posted August 5, 2010 More cars= better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevepoe Posted August 5, 2010 Share Posted August 5, 2010 Rob, this will be a great place for a old c car to race after grand am is done with them. you got me, Dean is the other car and maybe rusty's car. my thought is more s cars will come play in ai over wc. which is good for us. I spoke with a guy at Vir That just bought a used s car for 43k and ran one race with them then found out the series is gone after miller. His plan was to run ai and modify as needed. I hope this is what most will do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted August 5, 2010 Author Share Posted August 5, 2010 i guess my problem is that i was thinking from my own point of view. i have no interest in running that full series. it comes to my home track, VIR, and I considered entering my car in the race for the experience of doing it. Most of us regular folk could never afford to run professional stuff full time. But we might be able to afford one race a year. Otherwise running our favorite club racing. What i was NOT trying to do was suggest we drop AI for WC. Quite the opposite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt Posted August 5, 2010 Share Posted August 5, 2010 Has anybody seen a World Challenge VTS form for an S197? Where are they regarding rules for the Mustangs or is it just an idea? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slammed_93_hatch Posted August 5, 2010 Share Posted August 5, 2010 Has anybody seen a World Challenge VTS form for an S197? Where are they regarding rules for the Mustangs or is it just an idea? not on the site yet http://www.world-challenge.com/competitors/vts.php But its more then an idea; http://www.world-challenge.com/event/entrylist.php?base=100&event=10mo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted August 5, 2010 Author Share Posted August 5, 2010 But its more then an idea; http://www.world-challenge.com/event/entrylist.php?base=100&event=10mo SKEEEEEENNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevepoe Posted August 5, 2010 Share Posted August 5, 2010 (edited) Has anybody seen a World Challenge VTS form for an S197? Where are they regarding rules for the Mustangs or is it just an idea? Matt, nothing solid as of yet. from what I have been told they are meeting with ford this weekend to talk about what ford can offer to 500s owners that will allow the car to be better prepared to battle in gts. I heard the name wilson being dropped as part of the ford crew that they are meeting with at Mid-Ohio didn't know if you knew this about wilson. Mark Wilson’s ExperienceEngineering Supervisor - Ford Racing Ford Motor Company (Public Company; F; Automotive industry) June 2010 — Present (3 months) I am responsible for all production based race car programs as well as the Ford Racing catalog. I guess they are talking about more power and ways to take some weight out of them to run in gts. I hope these guys no the difference between racing on a 888 vs a r1 . these heavy things are going to give it up in a hurry when they start pushing them thinking they are on a r1 wc is what a 50 min race ? what is a typical challenge race length ? Edited August 5, 2010 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slammed_93_hatch Posted August 5, 2010 Share Posted August 5, 2010 Has anybody seen a World Challenge VTS form for an S197? Where are they regarding rules for the Mustangs or is it just an idea? Matt, nothing solid as of yet. from what I have been told they are meeting with ford this weekend to talk about what ford can offer to 500s owners that will allow the car to be better prepared to battle in gts. I heard the name wilson being dropped as part of the ford crew that they are meeting with at Mid-Ohio I guess they are talking about more power and ways to take some weight out of them to run in gts. I hope these guys no the difference between racing on a 888 vs a r1 . these heavy things are going to give it up in a hurry when they start pushing them thinking they are on a r1 wc is what a 50 min race ? what is a typical challenge race length ? what to the challenge car's put down in terms of power?? Lets put a conservative number out there that the GTS points leader puts down 290whp and come in at 2750lbs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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