TT -> 2011 rules speculation! (Joke Thread-outrageous ideas)

[kbrew8991]

I couldn't agree more. I was truly blown away this year when I showed up In my TTA street car, and ran slower than my TTC car. Why? The TTA car had none of the free mods that is worth seconds a lap.

 

the free mod list is way too damn long IMHO. But that cat is out of the bag... fffffffffffffff

 

 

The entire TT and PT list is to long period.

 

beats doing ST math though

[yakisoba]

The mod list is a direct outgrowth of the blanket rule that says (in effect) "if it's not stated in the rules, you can't do it." The alternative is to run a rules system that is based on "it doesn't say you can't, so you can." That's pretty fun, because it leads to innovations. It's frustrating if you don't think of the winning innovation first.

[Varkwso]

it's an arms race requiring deficit spending, slush funds and espionage

and Mutually Assured Destruction.

 

Now that's funny no matter where you are.

[L98Terror]

Regional champion is not all about attendance. It takes consistency and reliability more then one event and then rest on your laurels. Winning for a season is never easy or cheap.

 

It is like saying you are a national Champ just because you went.

 

 

That is the case sometimes & keep in mind I'm always looking at a very small window of TTA/TTS/TTU/PTA/ST2/ST1 in almost all of those in the GL you have a good chance of being the Regional Champ just by showing up each race weekend. Your class/Region my vary & yes I have one of those attendance awards & showing up is definitely not cheap or easy. That trophy is by far the most expensive one I have.

 

Let's face it the fields were weak in Utah and a National Championship will be much harder to come by at Mid Ohio in '11 & '12, I may be wrong but that is my opinion.

[L98Terror]

Is that to insure that nobody can be competitive without buying tons of parts?

 

Disagree, the 2007 TTA National Champion car had almost no free mods & 2009 National TTA Champion had very few.

 

And the 2010 TTA Champion, that did have a lot of the free mods went over 4 seconds faster at Miller.

(I know the previous record was weak - Greg didn't even use his set of stickers)

 

Well lets see a 1:29 at Mid Ohio then

[L98Terror]

guess the moral of the story is we are competing for a plastic trophy and bragging rights and if you need to push the rules to do that what does it say about your character?

Do not underestimate a driver's desire to win $1,000+ worth of Hoosiers each weekend (depending on attendance); it's like giving free crack to crackheads who smoke their crack better than the other crackheads. Drivers are competing for much more than a $7 trophy.

 

Mark

 

Good point, I think you just changed my mind.

[L98Terror]

Dude in the 2008 ST2 Championship race I had shocks that were missing valves in them for god sake(found that out when they were sent out to be revalved) and still ran the fastest race lap, what that tells me is there is so much that most of us can still learn as a driver that changing car set up may just hurt us more than help. I understand when there is someone going faster it makes us want to make changes to the car because our ego won't allow us to believe it might be the operator not the car.

 

and when you talk about free mods and all that crap I'll believe you when the top three TTA cars are running 1:32.xx or lower at Mid Ohio, we already know a 9.5:1 Z06, with no free mods, full weight running 275 Hankooks, not the C91s but old C70s went into the 1:33s three years ago and that was with a bobble so a low 1:33/high 1:32 was possible....that puts TTS/ST2 in the 1:30s. The question is why are we not there? I believe because we are messing with the cars to much and for me mind mind hasn't grasped how fast I can really go.

 

In theory if you took that TTA Z06 and dropped the HP/lb ratio to the limit, slapped on C91 or A6s and used all the free mods that 1:33 should be more like a 1:31.xxx or at least a low 1:32 and hell I'm not even there with my TTS/ST2 car with all the mods in the world.

 

I guess the moral of the story is we are competing for a plastic trophy and bragging rights and if you need to push the rules to do that what does it say about your character? I understand that everyone says that is part of racing and I have had those around me throw out ways to "push the rules" and I refuse to entertain the idea, maybe that makes me stupid or naive but at least for now that is the road I'm going to take but if NASA continues to look the other way on the rules they wrote it and turn this thing into a joke, I'll have to make a desision to either take my toy and pl;ay in another sandbox or join the raindeer games.

 

 

I read the rules and this part serious

 

Any car exceding the minimum “Adjusted” weight/power ratio for its declared class, or

otherwise found to be non-compliant with the rules for its declared class, will be penalized in

accordance with the NASA CCR and these rules. The penalty for competing with a vehicle in a

class lower than that dictated by the Super Touring Classification system or an otherwise noncompliant

vehicle, regardless of driver/owner intentions, will be a two race disqualification for

the previous two races for the first offense. A second offense will result in a loss of half of the

season points, a two race suspension, and disqualification from the race. At third offense, there

will be a loss of all season points and a four race suspension. The fourth offense will result in

permanent ejection from the series. Any disqualification or suspension will result in zero points

that cannot be dropped.

 

We would never bring a car that is illegal, so I shouldn't say that we are pushing the rules, but we are definatly going to develop our cars. I think the guys in the SE are a great example of how developing the cars in a certian region makes all of them faster. The way they push each other all year is more what I'm talking about, if you brought your old TTA car down there it would be really tough to compete with them. I know we worked on our car harder before Nationals to make it ready for a showdown against Mark for TTA, unfortunately he couldn't make it, but our car was better because of it.

I think the GL region has done a similar thing with the TTS/TTU cars with you and James and Danny and Mike working hard for victories.

I'm not saying pushing the rules and trying to cheat, I'm saying develop the cars more within the rules and try to give yourself the best possible car to compete with. You know me better than that, we just want to have some good close racing and I think we will have just that at Mid-O in 2011.

 

Obviously with Nat's being at Mid-O everyone (not only the GL region) will be bringing there A game there in 2011, I think with some good weather the times will be falling again.

 

 

Well when I read those rules to me it seemed like a pretty strong deterrent to being not be found illegal no matter what your intent, but after recent non enforcement of those rules it makes me start to think I should just get off my high horse and get with the program. Since they are only there to keep newbies in line since the veterans all know they are a joke and won't be enforced. (I wish they would just remove them).

 

 

There nothing wrong with being on the edge of the rules but you're 4th time off the dyno 1 hp to high and you're are gone from series forever made me think twice about even being close.

 

 

And those SE TTA cars should make National in TTA just freaking awesome, the deck should be stacked in TTA/TTS for '11

[jason]

And those SE TTA cars should make National in TTA just freaking awesome, the deck should be stacked in TTA/TTS for '11

 

We'll be there even if we have to combine all our spare parts piles into one car.

[Varkwso]

And those SE TTA cars should make National in TTA just freaking awesome, the deck should be stacked in TTA/TTS for '11

 

We'll be there even if we have to combine all our spare parts piles into one car.

 

And we will do our damnedest to make sure the cars meet the "intent and letter" of the rules. So how about the CTS-V crate LS6s? Or GTO crate LS2s?

 

I do my absolute best to enforce the rules in my region - cannot speak to other areas - and I know it is very, very hard with a cooperating team with some cars. When someone choses to break the rules (very, very rare in my experience - most are due to not understanding the rules) it is almost impossible with a visual check even combined with GPS and dyno information.

 

So what are the stock shock numbers for an '97 Integra and how can I tell if it is 0 points or +2 or even more? With time, effort, reference material and subject matter experts it can be determined - and I have chased a few.

 

Fellow competitors are the real policemen - like it or not.

[Varkwso]

....The entire TT and PT list is to long period.

 

beats doing ST math though

 

 

That is easy math $$$$$=Podium

[heavychevy]

Internal engine mods must have dyno sheet...the specified dyno is the one I will be buying...

 

 

Really, a dyno coming to the SE? That would be great for at least one tuner who chose not to show up with a dyno sheet for forever while simultaneously never tuning my car because his was always on the dyno. I guess, email, fax, and fedex don't work unless they are sending out bills and estimates.

 

I would gladly contribute to a dyno fund for our events. Maybe an early Christmas present for December?

[TurboShortBus]

...it is almost impossible with a visual check even combined with GPS and dyno information.

I agree with you 100%. Submitting a dyno sheet for "proof" of RWHP only goes so far, since I have no proof that the person making the dyno pull didn't put a block under the pedal or just make a pull at 3/4 throttle. And don't get me started on the subject of turbo cars, but I will admit that if I was going to build a TT car from scratch, it would have a turbo and it would make monstrous bottom end power.

 

Fellow competitors are the real policemen - like it or not.

This is why I scan all TT classification forms for the drivers down here and post them in a public directory on Google Documents. If you are a TT or PT driver, then you can review all of your competitors' forms at any time. When I set this up a year and a half ago, it didn't take long for the emails to start rolling in, saying things like, "So-and-so has this part on his car but isn't taking points for it." Fortunately, this has tapered off over time, and everybody appears to be compliant (so far).

 

In another thread, somebody suggested having a logo for the TT group. Once that is determined, I think the TT group motto should be "Honor Among Thieves."

 

Mark

[drivinhardz06]

Once that is determined, I think the TT group motto should be "Honor Among Thieves."

 

"I know he's cheating, because I am and he's beating me"

[sperkins]

Scanning and posting class sheets is a great idea.

Edited November 10, 2010 by Guest

[kbrew8991]

looks like Jeff might have 100s to do then poor guy!

[Varkwso]

looks like Jeff might have 100s to do then poor guy!

 

 

Scott just volunteered. I have over 125 in my book.

[dans2k]

actually wouldn't be too bad to make a little web form and have people submit them online and you could make it browsable

[Varkwso]

actually wouldn't be too bad to make a little web form and have people submit them online and you could make it browsable

 

Sorry - I update the TT web page - that is enough web work for me. I am not a IT guy so it will be a long time before it happens. The TT forms are available for review by anyone, at almost anytime, at most events.

 

I actually take a hard copy and review the cars.

[drivinhardz06]

The TT forms are available for review by anyone, at almost anytime, at most events.

 

Bring scott's to RA, I'm gonna go over it like an IRS agent

Edited November 10, 2010 by Guest

[jimbow]

looks like Jeff might have 100s to do then poor guy!

 

 

Scott just volunteered. I have over 125 in my book.

 

Actually if you want after Road Atlanta I could scan them here at the office and give you a usb stick or post them on my Windows Live space.

[kbrew8991]

looks like Jeff might have 100s to do then poor guy!

 

 

Scott just volunteered. I have over 125 in my book.

 

Actually if you want after Road Atlanta I could scan them here at the office and give you a usb stick or post them on my Windows Live space.

 

sounds like someone is gunning to be TT Asst Director

[L98Terror]

actually wouldn't be too bad to make a little web form and have people submit them online and you could make it browsable

 

 

That would be sweet on a national level so all forms are avaible for review on anyone running any class throughout the country

[dans2k]

actually wouldn't be too bad to make a little web form and have people submit them online and you could make it browsable

 

 

That would be sweet on a national level so all forms are avaible for review on anyone running any class throughout the country

 

yea like you'd have a user/pass and submit/update your latest sheet online, maybe attach a scan of a dyno sheet

then it could email it to the TT director or send a link to view online

 

then you can let others with a user/pass or whatever check it out

 

maintainance might be a pia but it shouldn't be too bad to code in PHP

updating it to new rules could be a pia or making a system to edit rules etc online...

 

I make stuff like this all the time if anyones seriously interesting I'd donate coding to get it up and running.. I don't like maintainance so much

[obzezzed350]

Looks like Florida is ahead of the curve!