What Would AI2 Have Looked Like?

[supermac]

On the whole I think adding a class is always a bad idea.

If however the current competitors in AI seem unwillingly to budge from their cars as currently configured ( which is understandable) ,then a second class that allows Todd and the leadership to remake AI in line with their vision could be the only solution.

With the caveat of eventually bringing the two classes back together.

It is funny that when faced with two classes, some on here are finally softening to some of the proposed changes to AI (power to weight, ABS, aero etc.)

Oh well I guess you never know what you've got till its gone!

Having said all that here are my proposals, keeping in mind my only thought is to bring the 2 classes back together in 3 years or less and to get it started this year, ASAP!

Some might see my thoughts as a regression of existing AI rules but I see it as saving the class.

 

1. Get as close to factory delivered cars as possible, with a cmc type thought process of if it doesn't say it you can't do it. If you pick a mustang you deal with the suspension and crappy mod motor and if I pick a camaro I deal with my lack of factory development and my Saweet LS motor! Haha

2. No or limited aero. Similar to grand am GS, again let's keep the cars stock to allow a perceived and actual low barrier to joining us.

3. A hp to weight that allows a unrestricted GM car to run. Hell a new mustang is at what 8.8 to 1? A stock ls1 with headers and a good exhaust runs in the 350 to 360 range. That is right around 9 to 1. Somewhere around there should be good.

4. ABS....I am personally against it as I feel it limits driver talent and in the interest of "looking beyond my own hood (which has ABS BTW)" I think it should be a choice of the driver. If you run ABS you pay a 200lb penalty that doesn't count in you hp to weight.

5. Allow 10" wheels of any construction, that seems to be good for all makes.

6. Tires!!!! Stick with the toyos, it will make recombining the classes the easiest and it works well for keeping thing even. They suck, but they suck for a long time. Sure the Tommys of the world will love their new set of hoosiers every weekend, but it will just create a divide between the haves and the have Nots . And yes I know that their are possiblly some cheaper and better tires out there and we need a spec tire and one that allows us to combine the two classes back together.

7. Dashes, I like them. It keeps us true to our trans-am roots!

As you may be able to see a am a big advocate of us driving the cars and not spending our lives and money in the garage.

Pick your weapon put a cage and a thundering exhaust on that big ole American v-8 and let's race!

 

Cody " where is the first turn and what's the track record" Powell

[Cmy70go]

Well said, Robin +4

[FBI AGENT]

Well said, Robin +4

 

 

+5

[nape]

2) Does this split small AI fields in half? No, but that's up the racers, the regional series director and the market. For a region with all cars making power right up to the limit of AI power levels and not restricting, AI2 may not exist and all the racers may choose to reject the notion of bumping up the power. For a region where 75% of the cars are restricting down to AI levels, the racers and leadership there may all collectively choose to pull restrictors and all kick it up a notch to AI2....and AI may not exist in that region. That is a choice...and one based upon the people, the cars and the leadership in your area.

 

-=-Todd

 

Yep. NASA already has classes if you want a big, open tire, 400-500 HP class, it's called ST1 and ST2. Worried about not being able to beat 'vettes? Unless you're beating the top AI drivers, why worry about it?

 

If everyone is insanely worried about the power level, move the 8.7 increase up a year or two. I'm not a big fan of even that idea, but it's a much better alternative then wrecking the class by splitting it.

 

If you're going to make a class between AI and AIXpensive, might as well name it, AI$.

 

PS- Burnett for National AI director, +6

[gbrown8439]

1. AIX reined in to allow people to run bigger power & tires & such. Without having to be so loaded.

 

Hey! Leave us out of this.

 

I agree with everything but your AIX comments.

Edited January 28, 2011 by Guest

[robbodleimages]

one gored ox above. this is really about those things i am afraid.

[edhunter]

1st, WOW where did this come from? This is the tail wagging the dog. If Nasa has a vision of a new class then great but don’t do it at the expense of an existing class.

 

2nd, THE AI RULE SET IS WORKING!! Where are the complaints coming from? All I have heard is the idea that the S197 is better than the GM cars because of the abs. This doesn’t warrant another class. If our (AI) goal is to evolve with the times then a minor PtoW change may be needed, but lets not work in a vacuum lets consider CMC (as a whole, combined to 1 class) and AIX which has been failing because the X ='s $$$. The only way AI2 maxes any sense is as a replacement for AIX. Where are all of the cars for this new class?

 

3rd, The CMC split experiment was a huge mistake lets not do it again in AI. I hope that the CMC world doesn’t claim it to be a success when both classes have really struggled. The AI field will follow a minor power to weight change if it is phased in and announced properly.

 

4th, My offer to all of you is this, 3 classes.

1. AIX reined in to allow people to run bigger power & tires & such. Without having to be so loaded.

2. AI as it is with fewer body mods & a minor power bump (8:1). We can talk about ABS if we have to.

3. AI Challenge (formerly CMC2) which would allow for all of the current cmc cars plus some new ones (GTO T’Bird etc) and some of the previous limited prep AI cars that don’t want to chase the new AI cars can back up a bit. On a side note the V6 versions of the Camaro & Mustang fit this class too. (cool new cars)

 

Robin Burnett

 

+6 (or is it +7 - I lost count!)

 

With the following adendum:

2a. Cars with ABS carry a additional wt penalty (100-200lbs)...

 

Ed Hunter

AI #215

[robbodleimages]

lets not start the ABS thing again. if i didnt know better, this AI2 thing is all about ABS and 10" wide wheels and new things that Ford and maybe Chevy are planning to bring to the table that will only make drivers of older platforms unhappy.

 

i could be wrong, but its my read that fighting the ABS fight only increases the AI2 plan. Which do you want to win more? The ABS fight or the AI fight?

[edhunter]

I could be wrong, but its my read that fighting the ABS fight only increases the AI2 plan.

 

Way I see it, AI=no ABS vs. AI2=yes ABS will split the ranks more than the paltry wt. penalty w/in AI. Now about equalizing track width across the platforms....

 

JMO...

[snakebit]

+7.5 (half a vote since I'm currently building an AI car, but not racing)

I like Robin's ideas, except 8.7 to 1 and a weight penalty for ABS, in AI.

 

Now Robin....write a letter to Congress and tell them how to fix the economy!

 

John

[SNAKBITN]

I vote 8:1 on the hp which most all can easily pull off without alot of $$.

Keep the toyo's cause you can bet the hell out of them and they still come back.

If abs is such a major problem put the 100lb penalty on them but 200lb is crazy.

Please don't start another class the fields are small enough now two AI classes will kill it.I would just as soon run CMC2 where the fields are growing if AI2 is formed.

 

Robert

AI rookie

[firehawkclone]

Im pretty sure your Nat champ was already 200lbs heavier than most, and still killing people under braking! I would like a 300/400lb penalty for ABS. If you cant drive without it, than pay your way into driving skills!

 

I might come back to AI with Robin in office, and what he proposed.

 

+9

[nape]

I vote 8:1 on the hp which most all can easily pull off without alot of $$.

 

Robert

AI rookie

 

Think about that when you're on your 2nd or 3rd "without alot of $$."

 

The people proposing the rules need to get their heads out of their asses and think about longevity of the series and their racing careers.

 

How many years can you afford to blow your entire disposable income on racing? My years are behind me but I sure hope I can keep doing more with less for 30 or 40 more seasons.

[SNAKBITN]

Abs on 1998 cobra ain't much to talk about,as far as the new mustangs it is what it is.But on a 98 with four hundred extra lbs you couldn't stop the damn thing.

The pw/wt has got to be raised eventually like it or not it's coming.

 

Robert

[koserv]

I would just as soon run CMC2 where the fields are growing if AI2 is formed

 

Come on down...the water is fine! Although, it will probably be AIC when you get here. Do we have to pay King a license fee?

 

+another for Robin's comments. If a three class banner is where we're headed, then hopefully the lines will be well thought out from a competitive AND a cost standpoint.

[Raybob9289]

On the whole I think adding a class is always a bad idea.

If however the current competitors in AI seem unwillingly to budge from their cars as currently configured ( which is understandable) ,then a second class that allows Todd and the leadership to remake AI in line with their vision could be the only solution.

With the caveat of eventually bringing the two classes back together.

It is funny that when faced with two classes, some on here are finally softening to some of the proposed changes to AI (power to weight, ABS, aero etc.)

Oh well I guess you never know what you've got till its gone!

Having said all that here are my proposals, keeping in mind my only thought is to bring the 2 classes back together in 3 years or less and to get it started this year, ASAP!

Some might see my thoughts as a regression of existing AI rules but I see it as saving the class.

 

1. Get as close to factory delivered cars as possible, with a cmc type thought process of if it doesn't say it you can't do it. If you pick a mustang you deal with the suspension and crappy mod motor and if I pick a camaro I deal with my lack of factory development and my Saweet LS motor! Haha

2. No or limited aero. Similar to grand am GS, again let's keep the cars stock to allow a perceived and actual low barrier to joining us.

3. A hp to weight that allows a unrestricted GM car to run. Hell a new mustang is at what 8.8 to 1? A stock ls1 with headers and a good exhaust runs in the 350 to 360 range. That is right around 9 to 1. Somewhere around there should be good.

4. ABS....I am personally against it as I feel it limits driver talent and in the interest of "looking beyond my own hood (which has ABS BTW)" I think it should be a choice of the driver. If you run ABS you pay a 200lb penalty that doesn't count in you hp to weight.

5. Allow 10" wheels of any construction, that seems to be good for all makes.

6. Tires!!!! Stick with the toyos, it will make recombining the classes the easiest and it works well for keeping thing even. They suck, but they suck for a long time. Sure the Tommys of the world will love their new set of hoosiers every weekend, but it will just create a divide between the haves and the have Nots . And yes I know that their are possiblly some cheaper and better tires out there and we need a spec tire and one that allows us to combine the two classes back together.

7. Dashes, I like them. It keeps us true to our trans-am roots!

As you may be able to see a am a big advocate of us driving the cars and not spending our lives and money in the garage.

Pick your weapon put a cage and a thundering exhaust on that big ole American v-8 and let's race!

 

Cody " where is the first turn and what's the track record" Powell

 

I'm with ya Cody.............

but these changes should be applied to AI. NO MORE CLASSES

[DHarsay]

A few things to consider.

Drop the AI power:weight a small amount to allow AI2 to fill the gap evenly between AI and AIX.

Reason? I would love to uncork my restricted CMC/CMC2 motor (285hp/325tq unrestricted) and run AI every now and again.

 

Put the 18" wheels and tires in AI2, and ban them from AI.

 

Put the 14" brakes in AI2 and ban them from AI.

 

Limit rear wings some more than you already do, and open it up some more than what you see in AI for AI2.

 

Price cap on AI shocks.

 

Minimum wheel weight in AI.

 

Those are all great ideas. As someone else mentioned, having AI2 makes it easier to fix AI.

 

Todd, also, speaking about fixing the AI rules, please read my message to you on this forum.

[King Matt]

American Iron Challenge rings a bell. I think I still have the bus tire tracks on my back from that exercise.

 

+10 for three classes, or whatever it's up to.

[Al Watson]

+11

 

AI challenge / AI / AIX

[D Algozine]

Wow, how did this happen?

I'm with Robin also, well said. +12 ............ Smart, rugged good looks and I heard he can drive also

 

I cant find the logic in adding another class. AI car counts are down. AIX car counts are down, so I'm not sure how adding more classes helps, unless there's a plan to weed out one of the current classes, yikes I really dont see this as a way to add more cars, but .....?

 

Lets make it simple and call the new class what it really is, "Pro Pony cars series in amateur racing" . Looks like a place for ex Mustang challenge, Grand Am, and the new World Challenge cars to race in NASA. All of which is fine, but I say keep it out of the AI banner. Why are we trying so hard to be a place for 2-3 pro drivers to come play on thier off weekends ?

 

Edit: Ouch, maybe a little harsh. But, certainly a minor tweak of the HP to weight and nix all the ABS stuff, and any new pony car can join the current AI ranks. Remember, we race/build race cars that only have to resemble street cars.

Edited January 28, 2011 by Guest

[T&A Racing]

+13 and +14 since I currently own two cars

 

I also would like nominate Robin for Series Director if there were such a job (I still can't find this position mentioned any where in the CCR or any official document from ownership of NASA).

 

I just don't see the data for the logic stated for the added class. Do we have any actual data, what are the real numbers of drivers / cars sitting it out somewhere waiting to jump in to our next race once this new class is available. We had one guy, one and only one guy with a 5.0 motor at nats, he is a nice guy, but still just one guy. I don't recall him complaining at all about the current rules messing with him being about to build a car. I do recall him complaining about how much it was costing to get the new car dialed in.

 

So question to the leadership, where is the data, lets do a survey or something to collect actual data, we already have almost a mandate through a simple grassroots vote that we self organized and Robin help with some sound logic and common sense approach to keeping the series moving forward at a pace we should be able to keep up with.

 

Thanks

Mark

[brucebyerly]

+15

 

I'm not happy the guy with ABS is faster. ABS is an advantage in all conditions period and I'm sure it makes you a lazy driver. BUT, we had 4 cars spanning TWENTY FIVE YEARS of body styles within 3 TENTHS at Moroso last race. That's fun no matter how you slice it. To me, AI2 is a troubling concept at best. And yes, I'd prefer to have a Boss302R than my old 97 cobra with no abs and hydraboost. I'll eventually get the new technology even though I have a fundamental problem with ABS vs. no ABS in our little race series. But, if there are 5 mustang type classes, spec miata wins.

 

Bruce Byerly

[marshallmosty]

+16

Fix the main issues with AI and $hitcan the AI2 idea.

 

1. P/W ratio adjustment in a few years. This gives those of us with lower HP cars the ability to budjet for a new stroker (or whatever).

 

2. ABS or not... I'm not getting in the middle and will follow the masses. For the record, I have ABS, and only see it as an "oh $hit" policy for square tires...

 

3. Standardize the damn track widths... Why is a Fox limited to 3 inches less than the technologically superior S197??? Makes NO sense.

 

4. What are the other gripes???

[coupe331]

1st, WOW where did this come from? This is the tail wagging the dog. If Nasa has a vision of a new class then great but don’t do it at the expense of an existing class.

 

2nd, THE AI RULE SET IS WORKING!! Where are the complaints coming from? All I have heard is the idea that the S197 is better than the GM cars because of the abs. This doesn’t warrant another class. If our (AI) goal is to evolve with the times then a minor PtoW change may be needed, but lets not work in a vacuum lets consider CMC (as a whole, combined to 1 class) and AIX which has been failing because the X ='s $$$. The only way AI2 maxes any sense is as a replacement for AIX. Where are all of the cars for this new class?

 

3rd, The CMC split experiment was a huge mistake lets not do it again in AI. I hope that the CMC world doesn’t claim it to be a success when both classes have really struggled. The AI field will follow a minor power to weight change if it is phased in and announced properly.

 

4th, My offer to all of you is this, 3 classes.

1. AIX reined in to allow people to run bigger power & tires & such. Without having to be so loaded.

2. AI as it is with fewer body mods & a minor power bump (8:1). We can talk about ABS if we have to.

3. AI Challenge (formerly CMC2) which would allow for all of the current cmc cars plus some new ones (GTO T’Bird etc) and some of the previous limited prep AI cars that don’t want to chase the new AI cars can back up a bit. On a side note the V6 versions of the Camaro & Mustang fit this class too. (cool new cars)

 

Robin Burnett

 

+18

 

With Wheeler possibly gone from AI I got nobody to race in SoCal AI. The last thing I need is another class for someone to go to.

[firehawkclone]

1st, WOW where did this come from? This is the tail wagging the dog. If Nasa has a vision of a new class then great but don’t do it at the expense of an existing class.

 

2nd, THE AI RULE SET IS WORKING!! Where are the complaints coming from? All I have heard is the idea that the S197 is better than the GM cars because of the abs. This doesn’t warrant another class. If our (AI) goal is to evolve with the times then a minor PtoW change may be needed, but lets not work in a vacuum lets consider CMC (as a whole, combined to 1 class) and AIX which has been failing because the X ='s $$$. The only way AI2 maxes any sense is as a replacement for AIX. Where are all of the cars for this new class?

 

3rd, The CMC split experiment was a huge mistake lets not do it again in AI. I hope that the CMC world doesn’t claim it to be a success when both classes have really struggled. The AI field will follow a minor power to weight change if it is phased in and announced properly.

 

4th, My offer to all of you is this, 3 classes.

1. AIX reined in to allow people to run bigger power & tires & such. Without having to be so loaded.

2. AI as it is with fewer body mods & a minor power bump (8:1). We can talk about ABS if we have to.

3. AI Challenge (formerly CMC2) which would allow for all of the current cmc cars plus some new ones (GTO T’Bird etc) and some of the previous limited prep AI cars that don’t want to chase the new AI cars can back up a bit. On a side note the V6 versions of the Camaro & Mustang fit this class too. (cool new cars)

 

Robin Burnett

 

+18

 

With Wheeler possibly gone from AI I got nobody to race in SoCal AI. The last thing I need is another class for someone to go to.

 

I am gone buddy I removed all of the AI stickers tonight. I'm not the only GM leaving, 4 of the fastest GM car's in the country are either gone or looking for other option's! Thats a good portion of the GM field in the country, and nobody listen to the warning's or even responded to PM's!

 

The birth place of AI, and there are no car's in it! It's a shame!