What Would AI2 Have Looked Like?

[Pantera1889]

 

You have two choices as far as I can tell. One class that evolves with technoligy or two classes allowing the original class remain as it is and the evolution to being the new class. One class without evolution does not seem to be an option.

 

 

Why shouldn't the cars (S197) have to evolve to meet the rules instead of the rules evolving to meet the specs of the car?

 

Ron

[robbodleimages]

 

You have two choices as far as I can tell. One class that evolves with technoligy or two classes allowing the original class remain as it is and the evolution to being the new class. One class without evolution does not seem to be an option.

 

 

Why shouldn't the cars (S197) have to evolve to meet the rules instead of the rules evolving to meet the specs of the car?

 

Ron

 

You mean devolve. Thats the point. Time passes. SCCA American Sedan asked the question you asked when fuel injection was introduced and they said no. That class requires a carburated 302 pushrod motor or a 351 pushrod motor with a weight penalty or a chevy 350. And thats where they are now. They are struggling to find parts to keep those things running.

 

1995 mustangs got EFI. That class is based on technoligy that went off obsolete 16 years ago. There are teenagers today that look at racing cars with love and passion that werent born yet. To a 20 year old a 2005 Mustang GT is old.

[D Algozine]

"Without the S197, we'd still all be on 17" wheels. Did I want the 18" wheels? Hell no. Am I going to take advantage of the performance? Absolutely.

 

None of the allowances to the S197 scare me, but it makes it a lot harder for other platforms to keep finding ways to keep up."

 

here is the point. without the S197....this and that and so forth. Here is the basic question. Is American Iron where we race American pony cars or is it not? the S197 Mustang came out in 2004. Its 2011. The S197 is already into its second gen and in 2014 there will likely be a whole new platform.

 

Is American Iron where we race these cars and grow with the times or is it for the pre S197 cars only?

 

The issues that are not the table right now are only going to continue as the manufacturors and aftermarket vendors bring new advancements to the marketplace.

 

You have two choices as far as I can tell. One class that evolves with technoligy or two classes allowing the original class remain as it is and the evolution to being the new class. One class without evolution does not seem to be an option.

 

I understand your point, but I'm not sure it's valid. I don't think there is any real technoligical advances in the S197 cars. Simply, its has more stock HP then previous stock cars. What else about it is cutting edge? Many guys built some awesome S197 under the AI rules, before the consessions were ever implemented. They even had 17" rims (how could they do such a thing?) They simply followed the current AI rule set of the time, like the rest of the AI group.

My feelling is that you are mixing up the stock GT's off the showroom floor with Ford racing cars/parts. That is where the expensive transmission, and race ABS, and what ever else they develop becomes an issue. It's great that Ford has these items to offer, but why do these items need to be present in an amateur racing class, or more importantly in AI? Those are factory racing parts/cars built for pro series.

 

NASA could simply start there own version of the Mustang challenge and Ford Racing can provide the cars, but leave it out of AI. I don't think it belongs there. Too many rules are and will need to be adjusted over the years to keep up with a manufacturer who's R&D is targeted for the pro ranks. When would it end?

 

Look at history. The Trans Am series turned into a cluster F once the manufacturers starting throwing money at the series. You lose control and the original intent, because the series was chasing the money and huge car counts and the publicity that rules these situations.

[robbodleimages]

i am familiar with robin's car. his 17's were custom pieces. corvette wheels that were specially done for him. there were not over the counter race wheels for that chassis in 17.

 

again. its not about the hp. its about the other things. your frame of reference seems to be that these race cars are all built at home from scratch from a body in white. some of us are not so equipped or talented.

[D Algozine]

i am familiar with robin's car. his 17's were custom pieces. corvette wheels that were specially done for him. there were not over the counter race wheels for that chassis in 17.

 

again. its not about the hp. its about the other things. your frame of reference seems to be that these race cars are all built at home from scratch from a body in white. some of us are not so equipped or talented.

 

Look at the entry list for the 2006 Nationals. There were 4-5 S197 cars. All on 17" rims.

Really, 18" rims is not a big deal. It doesn't really matter. My point is, that is was done and can be done. Its the other stuff, and what ever else is coming that is important.

Not sure about the frame up build issue. There are many, many existing cars for sale that are currently AI legal or very easily adjusted to be legal. How simple is it to pull a transmission and put a stock ABS module in a car. If you can't do that, or pay to have it done, then maybe AI racing is not your series.

[Black Horse]

I thought I would take a moment to sound in on this topic.

 

I am AGAINST adding the AI2 class. I support Robin's response!

 

I would agree to revising the power to weight ratio with the following rule additions:

- wheel widths have a maximum limit (9.5"?)

- dyno verification at track be the final qualifier - if you are found to be 1/2 of one horsepower over the limit, too damn bad - no GPS, no questions, no debate

 

 

Now can we go racing and have fun....after all this is what it is all about - unless NASA is soon to offer hugh winner's purses and incentives.

[robbodleimages]

This is not about me. I'll let you guys argue with the man. I am just trying to give my POV on why the option has been put forth.

[svttim]

 

You have two choices as far as I can tell. One class that evolves with technoligy or two classes allowing the original class remain as it is and the evolution to being the new class. One class without evolution does not seem to be an option.

 

 

Why shouldn't the cars (S197) have to evolve to meet the rules instead of the rules evolving to meet the specs of the car?

 

Ron

 

You mean devolve. Thats the point. Time passes. SCCA American Sedan asked the question you asked when fuel injection was introduced and they said no. That class requires a carburated 302 pushrod motor or a 351 pushrod motor with a weight penalty or a chevy 350. And thats where they are now. They are struggling to find parts to keep those things running.

 

1995 mustangs got EFI. That class is based on technoligy that went off obsolete 16 years ago. There are teenagers today that look at racing cars with love and passion that werent born yet. To a 20 year old a 2005 Mustang GT is old.

 

Great Point. The issue is not thet the S197 has evolved. The issue is the lack of evolvement from other brands.

[D Algozine]

Great Point. The issue is not thet the S197 has evolved. The issue is the lack of evolvement from other brands.

 

Exactly what is it that the Mustang GT has that the Camaro SS or Challenger doesnt have?

All three are bigger, heavier, better developed suspension then in the past, more HP then in the past and larger wheels. But if you own an S197 you get to benifit from nearly all that Ford Racing has to offer, which is all well and good, except the items that used to be (and should still be) illegal, ie race ABS, and expensive race trans.

[robbodleimages]

dave. you've read this before and somehow must not believe it. my car has a shelby GT500 abs module in it. the tuning in the FR500c module doesnt work with street compound tires like the Toyo. It locked the brakes up almost every lap.

 

I changed the module and the problem was fixed. The transmission. Its a T56. Its got some different stuff in the guts of the transmission and the gear ratios are the same, but you can buy a t56 6060 transmission, which is legal, and built it or have it built to the same specs. There's nothing illegal about the parts and pieces in that transmission. Just the cost of buying one retail. Doesnt that sound silly? If you can build it or pay someone to build it, you can use it. If you buy it retail, you cant use it.

[T&A Racing]

Since no one has really addressed the actual question about should ai2 be i thought I would propose some suggestions.

 

4:1 HP and torque

Must run 11" wheels

Must run slicks

Must have at least a 2000$ wing.

Tranny has to cost more than 10k

 

There that should fix it. Now lets focus on making AI run affordable and growing.

 

Thanks

Mark

[nape]

TJ. Thats what I said. The S197 stock platform started the complaints. 14" brakes and 18" wheels.

It went on from there.

 

And so, Todd takes this upset and then takes the S197 to a new class to clear the issue. That starts a new issue.

 

The S197 GTs didn't come standard with big enough brakes to need 18" wheels until 2010. From 05-09 they only had 12.44" front discs and 17x8 wheels. Instead of being innovative, requesting manufacturers made AI legal kits, or figuring out how to get the weight of the car down so they didn't need 14" brakes, they requested rules changes... It went on from there.

 

This is what I'm tired of dealing with. Instead of doing a little problem solving, people want to hit the easy button.

 

Can't run up front in AI or make your car fit in the rule set? Whine for a new class. It's laziness.

 

Proper Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance.

 

Bring on all the superior platform S197s you can find. My 1985 Firebird with 5.5" front springs, a worm and sector steering box, struts, no ABS, a carburetor, and a 4-speed will give them a run for their money.

[T&A Racing]

I am right there with you TJ, let's go have fun we don't need no stinking new class. For the record i have a s197, it has a carburetor too.

[svttim]

Great Point. The issue is not thet the S197 has evolved. The issue is the lack of evolvement from other brands.

 

Exactly what is it that the Mustang GT, (Shelby GT500) has that the Camaro SS or Challenger doesnt have?

All three are bigger, heavier, better developed suspension then in the past, more HP then in the past and larger wheels. But if you own an S197 you get to benifit from nearly all that Ford Racing has to offer, which is all well and good, except the items that used to be (and should still be) illegal, ie race ABS, and expensive race trans.

 

 

Where are all the new Challengers and Camaro's in AI then?

[AIX9]

Robin +20

[svttim]

TJ. Thats what I said. The S197 stock platform started the complaints. 14" brakes and 18" wheels.

It went on from there.

 

And so, Todd takes this upset and then takes the S197 to a new class to clear the issue. That starts a new issue.

 

The S197 GTs didn't come standard with big enough brakes to need 18" wheels until 2010. From 05-09 they only had 12.44" front discs and 17x8 wheels. Instead of being innovative, requesting manufacturers made AI legal kits, or figuring out how to get the weight of the car down so they didn't need 14" brakes, they requested rules changes... It went on from there.

 

This is what I'm tired of dealing with. Instead of doing a little problem solving, people want to hit the easy button.

 

Can't run up front in AI or make your car fit in the rule set? Whine for a new class. It's laziness.

 

Proper Prior Planning Prevents pee-piddily-diddily Poor Performance.

 

Bring on all the superior platform S197s you can find. My 1985 Firebird with 5.5" front springs, a worm and sector steering box, struts, no ABS, a carburetor, and a 4-speed will give them a run for their money.

 

 

Maybe your a good driver

[EFisher12]

+21

 

Elliott Fisher

AIX #12

AI #71

[D Algozine]

Great Point. The issue is not thet the S197 has evolved. The issue is the lack of evolvement from other brands.

 

Exactly what is it that the Mustang GT, (Shelby GT500) has that the Camaro SS or Challenger doesnt have?

All three are bigger, heavier, better developed suspension then in the past, more HP then in the past and larger wheels. But if you own an S197 you get to benifit from nearly all that Ford Racing has to offer, which is all well and good, except the items that used to be (and should still be) illegal, ie race ABS, and expensive race trans.

 

 

Where are all the new Challengers and Camaro's in AI then?

 

I'm not sure. But lets work to get more Challengers and Camaros in the field, otherwise, AI will look like a Mustang Challenge. So making any concessions specific to the newer Mustang seems counterproductive to the class.

 

Not sure what your point is.

[UBR]

+22

 

I see Robin was knighted a few pages back. I call for making him King.

 

Splitting a series that needs a few "adjustments" to continue evolving is rediculous.

 

As for the arguement a bunch of pages back (sorry, school got in the way of the forums) that those of us that restrict our current motors want/need to uncork is silly. We made the decision to over build and restrict to improve HP/Tq curves and increase reliability. Not because we hoped they would increase HP ratios some day.

 

j

[robbodleimages]

for the record i am in favor of king robin's proposal(isnt it supposed to be hood, not king?). so, +22.

 

i dont think the conflict has ever been about horsepower, btw.

[svttim]

 

I'm not sure. But lets work to get more Challengers and Camaros in the field, otherwise, AI will look like a Mustang Challenge. So making any concessions specific to the newer Mustang seems counterproductive to the class.

 

Not sure what your point is.

 

Im in total agreement with having Chalengers and Camaro's in the field and in fact, a nice balance would be great and very exciting. Lets leave AI alone except, continue to allow street ABS (Race setups dont work with these tires anyway) Allow the transmissions, as has been pointed out they can be made regardless. Leave everything else alone for now. Work on rules 2 years out to give everybody enough time to update if they want. If the need arises for a change, so be it.

 

And, if we cant get the spec tire, time to find another brand that can be more consistant and less expensive

 

Limiting technology will get more difficult as time goes. Hell, the new Boss 302 comes with a key that can change the tune at startup. Change the key back and less power. Better to concentrate on how to manage technology than to limit it.

 

My point is if it came on the car as manufactured, no need to eliminate or penalize. A good driver with good equipment will still beat a mediocre one with new technology

[Al Watson]

quick recap of the posts has it at:

 

yes - 5

no - 33

undecided - 6

 

Now can we nix this ai2 idea, move cmc into cmc2 and call it AI challenge, move the AI pwr to 8.7:1, let AIX run free and be done with it

[UBR]

Now can we nix this ai2 idea, move cmc into cmc2 and call it AI challenge, move the AI pwr to 8.7:1, let AIX run free and be done with it

Sounds good except this won't meet the implied intent of the proposed change of having pro race teams join us at our events with no/limited mods to their cars.

 

Afterall, Scott Pruett just won the Rolex 24 hours. In the winner's circle, someone asked Scott what he wanted to do next and he said, "Go racing with NASA so I can win a $6 trophy!"

 

j

[svttim]

quick recap of the posts has it at:

 

yes - 5

no - 33

undecided - 6

 

Now can we nix this ai2 idea, move cmc into cmc2 and call it AI challenge, move the AI pwr to 8.7:1, let AIX run free and be done with it

 

:

[Red Tornado]

Vote Yes

 

general thoughts: yes have a ford but agree with everyone make it so more camaro's etc.. can play

 

Rules in order of most important and why

 

Tires - DOT and Hoosiers. They have great support, are cheaper than toyo's, and great contigency deals.

 

Wheels - 18x10.5 max and limit track width accordingly like AI.

 

Power to weight: 8.5 to 1. Allows folks to run ST2 if car count is low or add ballast and restrictor to run AI but still allows basics of exhaust, intake, on new cars.

 

Aero- same rules as AI.

 

All other rules should be same as AI in my mind unless something goes weird with ABS.

 

 

Thanks Todd for asking!