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hagakure

Why TT and not racing?

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beretta

I went through all of the HPDE steps, 1,2,3,4 about 14 weekends, I had some Great instructors along the way, I have only competed in 1 Time Trial weekend, I then went to Comp school and have since competed in 4 race weekends. Looking back I think it would be advantageous to spend at least a year just in Time Trials before moving into W2W. My first W2W race (Road Atlanta) I was overwhelmed by the pace and the amount of cars on track! I am getting more comfortable now.

From a cost point of view from my limited experience I can tell you W2W is tough, I bought $4,200 worth of Hoosiers in April 2011, 4 race weekends and they are all used up, not counting brake pads, rotors, fuel, oil and other comsumables.

So if you are not fast enough to finish up at the top, and have enough cars in class to win tires, they get very expensive . The Sunday races are 45 Minutes, thats pretty tough on the car, the one in Memphis in July I think I ran 30 laps in 98 degree weather. Thats hard on the car and a 51 year old driver .

 

One of the most fun weekends I had in 2011 was running Time Trials at Little Talladega with the Mid South Region, with some of the C5 Mafia from the Southeast Region

BTW they whipped up on me pretty good

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CWeber

^ and again I say a lot has to do with what you choose to run and what tires.

 

For my spec miata, I buy used RA1s and get 3 to 6 races out of them

 

We buy used hoosier's for our TTF car too and get 3 to 6 TT days out of those

 

 

now if we actually bought and paid for new tires, the hoosiers would obviously cost more but for us it is about budget racing and yet still having fun.

 

Heck, I still finished 3rd place overall in 2010 Midwest region season in Spec Miata with a tired old motor and only used RA1s!!!!

 

 

Let's see, we got 11 track records with our TTF car (all on used hoosiers!)

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kbrew8991

be careful going after instructors or giving them a hard time. The cost of a free entry fee alone is no where near the work it takes to properly teach one student, nevermind two or more...

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wlfpkrcn1
be careful going after instructors or giving them a hard time. The cost of a free entry fee alone is no where near the work it takes to properly teach one student, nevermind two or more...

 

I am not going after the instructors. I have also instructed, so don't jump someones shit because you have a wild hair up your ass. I was simply stating subsidized track time doesn't work for everyone and does not offer a fair cost comparison. I was asking if there is a cost difference if compared on equal terms.

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kbrew8991
be careful going after instructors or giving them a hard time. The cost of a free entry fee alone is no where near the work it takes to properly teach one student, nevermind two or more...

 

I am not going after the instructors. I have also instructed, so don't jump someones shoo-shiddily-diddily because you have a wild hair up your ass. I was simply stating subsidized track time doesn't work for everyone and does not offer a fair cost comparison. I was asking if there is a cost difference if compared on equal terms.

my my my sensitive are we? Looks to me like you're the one that's jumpy... jus' sayin'

 

Aren't the entry fees for both right at the same level anyway in most regions? Toss that out the window and you're still back to apples-apples

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Trevor57
W2W cost more money.You use more of everything be it fuel,brakes,tires and wear and tear on the car.I ran TTB for 2 years and had a ball.You run hard for a few laps and then you normally back off alittle.W2W you beat the crap out of your car the entire time but it is more fun to me than TT.

 

Robert

 

Do you have records of TT cost vs W2W? I would be interested in rough numbers if you have them available

 

 

A tt participant need only a car, helmet, and a couple bucks. A racer needs much more. Are you really trying to say otherwise?

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wlfpkrcn1

Nope. I agree with that. The initial investment for W2W is significantly higher with required driver gear, safety, truck and trailer. My question is comparable cost for a weekend between the two. What is the cost difference to running A vs R compounds. How many heat cycles before times increase etc. My assumption is it would equal out, but I don't know.

 

Our PTD car was built on a budget of approx $5k. We race on used Continentals from a GA Cup team. I understand budget constraints. That is why I am asking if anyone has apples to apples cost comparison.

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speedengineer

TT can be run for just as cheap as normal HPDE if you want too...but I would bet that a fully prepped/dedicated TT car costs similar to run as a w2w car.

 

I will start doing wheel to wheel eventually, if not this year then next year. I enjoy running TT and do get my 'competitive thrill' out of it. However, my real reason for running TT for a couple complete seasons prior to switching to w2w is that I want to fully hone my driving skills first - I want to learn to drive the car to its full potential before I throw in the challenge of learning other skills such as managing close traffic/passing into the mix. In my opinion it would be tough to jump straight from HPDE4 to w2w when you're racing against other drivers who know how to drive the car faster AND have a more finely honed racecraft. Baby steps!

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drivinhardz06
My question is comparable cost for a weekend between the two. What is the cost difference to running A vs R compounds. How many heat cycles before times increase etc. My assumption is it would equal out, but I don't know.

 

Another point on TT and your mention of cost, is tire contingencies. Since PT is the w2w version of TT (rules-wise) there is almost always (way) more TT entries for a given class than it's w2w counterpart class (at least in the SE). Since tires are a big part of the payout and a racer's expenses, this is a big deal.

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jason

It costs me no more to not make a TT event than it does to not make a race weekend.

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beerkat

TT is a stepping stone to W2W. It is suppose to be the High End of HPDE. I think that Mark is wrong when he says that the PT car and TT car play by the same rules because in TT you do not need all the safety equipment that is required of the W2W cars. With that said I do think that if you are serious about TT then you should have a cage in the car along with other safety gear.

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Balroks
If you amortize it on time spent at the limit it would even out. Not sure the the difference between a 13/10/7 point tire in cost per event?

 

If you do 2 laps on the limit in TT over 4 or 5 sessions, that's 8 or 10 laps on the limit more than you run in w2w because the car would never last 3 or 4 laps in a race running that pace, let alone 15, running at TT pace (with a heavy high hp car anyway). Plus with traffic, it's impossible.

 

Pretty much. I started on A6's for my first 2 rookie races, they were VERY fast but around lap 4-5 they fell off, came back, fell off harder, came back etc. Not something you want especially when your mid-pack. That and they were corded after 1-2 races. $$$. Someone needs to invent the tire-o-matic button. Start of the race your on A6 compounds then by lap 5 you push a button and they become R6's That....or Hoosier just needs to find a happy medium.

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SNAKBITN

SNAKBITN wrote:

W2W cost more money.You use more of everything be it fuel,brakes,tires and wear and tear on the car.I ran TTB for 2 years and had a ball.You run hard for a few laps and then you normally back off alittle.W2W you beat the crap out of your car the entire time but it is more fun to me than TT.

 

Robert

 

 

Do you have records of TT cost vs W2W? I would be interested in rough numbers if you have them available

 

Hell no,scared my wife would find it and my wallet is alot thinner now days.

 

Robert

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Trevor57

TT is not a stepping stone to racing for all people. Racing is not "better" than TT in all minds.

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CWeber

^ true enough

 

There are others who don't even want to advance to TT and are perfectly happy participating in HPDE events too.

 

Different strokes for different folks.

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jason
TT is not a stepping stone to racing for all people.

It should be a step for anyone that wants to race.

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kbrew8991
TT is not a stepping stone to racing for all people.

It should be a step for anyone that wants to race.

agreed - but it need not be a holding cell until one moves on. It's a great desitnation in its own right

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CWeber

^ TT also should not be a requirement for w2w racers (glad it isn't actually).

 

I did 1 TT day myself and then went directly into w2w because it held more appeal for me. Mind you at the time that I was still doing HPDE, TT and HPDE4 were in the same run group so I was already exposed to open passing in that venue along with some other track groups like Chin Motorsports, etc. So after so many years of DEs, open track days and instructing, just TT just didn't really do it for me any more.

 

I've done 1 TT day since that 1st TT event I officially participated in because my w2w car broke and I wanted to do something so my street car did TTF for a day (that was interesting) but I still had fun and the SM got fixed that Saturday night and was back on the track for Sunday's race so it was all good!!!!

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kbrew8991

qualifying is part of racing - why not learn more about it.

 

We'll gloss over the fact that the gap between DE3, Comp School, and Racing is large and having TT in between helps smooth the transition

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Trevor57
TT is not a stepping stone to racing for all people.

It should be a step for anyone that wants to race.

 

People who can't figure out racing without TT, are not going to figure it out with TT.

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jason
TT is not a stepping stone to racing for all people.

It should be a step for anyone that wants to race.

 

People who can't figure out racing without TT, are not going to figure it out with TT.

I disagree. I see a large difference on track of drivers that spent time in TT versus those that skipped it.

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ILIKETODRIVE
It should be a step for anyone that wants to race.

People who can't figure out racing without TT, are not going to figure it out with TT.

I disagree. I see a large difference on track of drivers that spent time in TT versus those that skipped it.

x2. As someone who had a dedicated TT car for over a year and now has a dedicated w2w car with 8 races under my belt, I can say I am glad I spent as much time as I did competing in TT.

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Cobra4B

I was asked this in comp school and my answer was that TT should be part of the progression. My main resoning is that you can't learn to truly drive your car all out in HPDE-3 or HPDE-4. It's just not the same as TT. IMO being able to drive your car nearly as fast as it can be driven should be part of getting into W2W. Sure there are people who can leap frog just fine, but TT teaches you skills you can't learn in HDPE3/4; it makes you a better racer.

 

EDIT - It's kind of like comparing hitting golf balls on the driving range to playing golf. You'd better have the shots mastered on the driving range before you play in a golf tournament. The fundamentals shouldn't require conscious thought. You should be focused on the strategy/competition vs. how to swing the club. Same thing goes for racing. You need to know how to drive the car so you can focuson dealing with all the other aspects of W2W.

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obzezzed350

Nonsense...if you drive flat out, you dont need TT first. That is how I drive..

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clydesdale

No one pointed out the obvious. Racing is not really racing if you are the only entry. In the Midwest and Great Lakes PT participation is scant whereas TT is fairly robust. I don't think I've seen more than 3 total cars in the entire PT field. TT typically fields 35-50 cars with 3-8 per class. If you jump platforms to an AI, 944, or Miata then you've got more going on-- or perhaps you have a German car in which case the GT series is pretty well attended. Otherwise you can expect several uncontested first place finishes throughout the year.

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