Why TT and not racing?

[brkntrxn]

 

 

TT helps car control, the nuances of the car changing every lap, and the importance of thinking way ahead of the car.

 

If you are only running 2-3 hot laps per session, when the car is at optimal adhesion and temperature. When does the car change? Do the A6's change that much lap to lap? Or are you refering to guys that run the full session?

 

 

To echo SpeedEngineer -- they change within the lap, within the session and within the day. On top of that, in Time Trials, your goal is to drive on the ABSOLUTE edge of control. Anything less is just slow. Driving on that edge takes an extraordinary amount of concentration and skill. I am more (mentally) exhausted after a 4 lap dance at VIR than I am after a 30 minute W2W stint.

 

W2W is more about racecraft. Knowing when and where to take the risk. A late brake, an inside pass, jumping on a mistake your competitor just made. TT is about taking a risk at every corner.

 

Yes, two different animals. But learning how to control your car on the razor's edge in Time Trials WILL make you a better driver in W2W.

 

 

-Kevin

[Varkwso]

.....

 

 

 

 

To echo SpeedEngineer -- they change within the lap, within the session and within the day. On top of that, in Time Trials, your goal is to drive on the ABSOLUTE edge of control. Anything less is just slow. Driving on that edge takes an extraordinary amount of concentration and skill. I am more (mentally) exhausted after a 4 lap dance at VIR than I am after a 30 minute W2W stint.

 

W2W is more about racecraft. Knowing when and where to take the risk. A late brake, an inside pass, jumping on a mistake your competitor just made. TT is about taking a risk at every corner.

 

Yes, two different animals. But learning how to control your car on the razor's edge in Time Trials WILL make you a better driver in W2W.

 

 

-Kevin

 

And the hero status continues...

[Cobra4B]

Anyone who says TT isn't a stepping stone for W2W probably drives a slow torqueless wonder. As Kevin said, winning at TT is about knowing how to drive you car on the absolute edge of what it can do. This is something you don't learn in HPDE-4 as you never have the open track to really go 100% all out.

 

Having the ability to drive your car flat out (that is how I drive) makes you a better racer. It allows you make the mechanics of driving muscle memory and devote more grey matter to race craft. I think I used this analogy earlier in this thread, but it's akin to competitive golf (or most any sport). You better have all the shots mastered on the driving range before you try to play tournament golf and win. If you're wasting time thinking about the mechanics of how to hit a shot when under pressure then that's less time you're focusing on how to score and win. It should all come from muscle memory... just like driving at the limit.

[supermac]

You give me 30 guys in a race group and I can tell you without hesitation which 15 of them skipped TT.

Sorry man, I've never TT'd or did any DE for that matter and I can guarantee, you would never be able to pick me out of a crowd, in a race group. Bring your a game if you want to run with me. Some get it some don't all the TT in the world isn't going to fix that.

[sperkins]

To echo SpeedEngineer -- they change within the lap, within the session and within the day. On top of that, in Time Trials, your goal is to drive on the ABSOLUTE edge of control. Anything less is just slow. Driving on that edge takes an extraordinary amount of concentration and skill. I am more (mentally) exhausted after a 4 lap dance at VIR than I am after a 30 minute W2W stint.

 

W2W is more about racecraft. Knowing when and where to take the risk. A late brake, an inside pass, jumping on a mistake your competitor just made. TT is about taking a risk at every corner.

 

Yes, two different animals. But learning how to control your car on the razor's edge in Time Trials WILL make you a better driver in W2W.

 

 

-Kevin

 

This is quite possibly the most accurate statement I've ever read on any automotive forum. Nice job sir!

[drivinhardz06]

Bring your a game if you want to run with me.

 

somebody just got called out

[Cobra4B]

You give me 30 guys in a race group and I can tell you without hesitation which 15 of them skipped TT.

Bring your a game if you want to run with me.

 

Last I checked Sperkins is the PTA national champ... so maybe you should be the one bringing your A game

[supermac]

You give me 30 guys in a race group and I can tell you without hesitation which 15 of them skipped TT.

Bring your a game if you want to run with me.

 

Last I checked Sperkins is the PTA national champ... so maybe you should be the one bringing your A game

Awesome, give the man a star, I just think its ludicrous for him to make a blanket statement about those who haven't ran TT.

You don't always qualify well, maybe you spin out on the dyno, who knows? But sometimes racecraft is all that matters and a fast lap doesn't matter at all.

I would personally rather do open track days and compare my laptimes to those that spent 3 times as much for 1/3rd the track time. I don't get TT at all and I dont bag on them on the forum.

Not trying to be a badass just sticking up for myself and other w2w guys

[Cobra4B]

I'd personally rather instruct and run TT and win Hoosiers vs. turn meaningless HPDE laps burning up my consumables. I enjoy W2W more than TT, but TT is an amazing rush and IMO you learn skills that are very important to being a good W2W racer. I'd venture to say learning how to drive your car "flat out" is more valuable in a higher powered RWD platform.

[supermac]

I'd personally rather instruct and run TT and win Hoosiers vs. turn meaningless HPDE laps burning up my consumables. I enjoy W2W more than TT, but TT is an amazing rush and IMO you learn skills that are very important to being a good W2W racer. I'd venture to say learning how to drive your car "flat out" is more valuable in a higher powered RWD platform.

My experience with instructing higher HP guys is their tendency to point and shoot rather than carry speed through the corner.

I can't use hoosiers on my low HP CMC car. However I still run tt for track time. I believe seat time is key.

[Cobra4B]

My experience with instructing higher HP guys is their tendency to point and shoot rather than carry speed through the corner.

What does that have to do with TT making you a better W2W racer? My $0.02 is that if you're racing a higher powered car, mastering the all-out TT lap is a key step to being a good W2W racer.

 

I believe seat time is key.

Yes... but again it depends on what you're practicing for. My old golf coach used to say, "Practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect...."

[speedengineer]

...But sometimes racecraft is all that matters and a fast lap doesn't matter at all.

 

But get a guy who can both nail a blazingly fast lap and has top notch racecraft and you have a recipe for a winner.

 

Since we're on the golf analogy, it takes both the skill to be able to hit a good shot, and the skill to know what shots you should take to be good at golf.

[Cobra4B]

...But sometimes racecraft is all that matters and a fast lap doesn't matter at all.

 

But get a guy who can both nail a blazingly fast lap and has top notch racecraft and you have a recipe for a winner.

 

Since we're on the golf analogy, it takes both the skill to be able to hit a good shot, and the skill to know what shots you should take to be good at golf.

Yep... that sums up my exact point very nicely.

[Trevor57]

Do you people really think that TT is the only way to learn how to drive a car at the limit? TT is great for some people, but it is not needed like some of you are trying to suggest.

[jason]

Do you people really think that TT is the only way to learn how to drive a car at the limit? TT is great for some people, but it is not needed like some of you are trying to suggest.

Nothing pushes your limits like competition.

[Varkwso]

Do you people really think that TT is the only way to learn how to drive a car at the limit? TT is great for some people, but it is not needed like some of you are trying to suggest.

 

 

TT can prove you can drive at limit. Or not.

[ninetyfourintegra]

Weighing in late

 

Being an instructor, driving in TT, and lastly doing checkoff rides for TT I agree with everyone.

MY PROPOSAL was to have a TT provisional also. Lasy year at MO during the summer there were some new TT guys who were clearly over their head, needed more 4 level , and were clearly all over the place, unpredictable.

IT can be fixed, just maybe with everyone there for the Nationals was a bad time for their baptism.

JMC

 

Hey that was me I ran a single TT session (after being wrecked out on Sat) to make Nationals. I was in a borrowed car designed for like a 5'6" driver and I come in at about 6'2". I could barely see out of the windshield b/c of the banner and the mirrors didn't exist. And yes, I got scolded by the PT/TT National champ about my driving after the session.

 

In TT its who's on a hot lap, who was on a hot lap and blew it so is now backing way off to clear their head and then is back 100% coming to the line, who is not on a hot lap - where the "f" did those Vettes come from in the breaking zone when I know they weren't there coming through the kink.

 

Racing. I want to be in front of the car in front of me and then in front of the car in front of that one. The guy behind me wants to be in front of me and in front of the car in front of me. Who's coming and going is much easier.

[Cobra4B]

Do you people really think that TT is the only way to learn how to drive a car at the limit?

In a fast car... Yes. You're generally not going to get clear track in the HPDE setting and the shot at Hoosiers makes you turn the "Don't give a damn" knob to 11.

 

TT is great for some people, but it is not needed like some of you are trying to suggest.

No... it's not mandatory to learning how to race. Personally, I'm very glad I mastered running a bonsai 2:04 lap at VIR before I ever got into racing W2W. TT allowed me to make my car control driving flat out become muscle memory.

[brkntrxn]

Shhhhhhhh, you guys need to stop promoting Time Trials. I highly PREFER people to jump straight from DE to W2W. Tires cost money.

[Cobra4B]

Shhhhhhhh, you guys need to stop promoting Time Trials. I highly PREFER people to jump straight from DE to W2W. Tires cost money.

Sheet yer right....

[Trevor57]

TT does not give people special powers. A driver that is going to be good in w2w or TT is going to be good regardless of his path. If TT had some magic powers to build drivers, we would not see the same people off the pace year after year. How many pro drivers got their start in TT?

[kbrew8991]

this argument is still going?

[Cobra4B]

TT does not give people special powers. A driver that is going to be good in w2w or TT is going to be good regardless of his path. If TT had some magic powers to build drivers, we would not see the same people off the pace year after year. How many pro drivers got their start in TT?

Not sure why this is so hard to understand. My epxerience is that mastering TT allowed me to be better at W2W more quickly. Could I have achieved the same end result going from HPDE-3 to W2W? Most likely... but it would have taken longer and I would have been a poorer driver at the outset of my racing career. Being successful at TT made me better prepared to deal with the new challenges of W2W. I never said TT had some magic power to "build" drivers... simply that it's a skill/experience that has substantial value on the road to W2W and the resultant W2W rookie will be better in most cases. The folks who never progress fail to do so at their own lack of ability; it has nothing to do with the concept of TT.

[kbrew8991]

just like someone who spends an extra day or three in HPDE1 will in general be better in HPDE2, etc, etc, etc.

 

exceptions to every rule, yadda yadda same as always

[Trevor57]

TT does not give people special powers. A driver that is going to be good in w2w or TT is going to be good regardless of his path. If TT had some magic powers to build drivers, we would not see the same people off the pace year after year. How many pro drivers got their start in TT?

Not sure why this is so hard to understand. My epxerience is that mastering TT allowed me to be better at W2W more quickly. Could I have achieved the same end result going from HPDE-3 to W2W? Most likely... but it would have taken longer and I would have been a poorer driver at the outset of my racing career. Being successful at TT made me better prepared to deal with the new challenges of W2W. I never said TT had some magic power to "build" drivers... simply that it's a skill/experience that has substantial value on the road to W2W and the resultant W2W rookie will be better in most cases. The folks who never progress fail to do so at their own lack of ability; it has nothing to dow tih the concept of TT.

 

Just because you have "mastered" time trails, does not mean that every comment in this thread is directed towards you. The lack of quoted text in my former post should have made that pretty clear. Not sure why this is so hard to understand.