Mid Ohio Contingeny from Carbotech!!

[jeffburch]

Jeff,

Its time you move along, since you can't be happy no matter what anyone says.

Sell your car and buy a Mazda, that may make you happy in the long run.

Being negative does not help the series that you used to love so much so I would just end it and get out.

Tony Guaglione

 

That's fine.

Your rule change killed the value of the national championship car.

You've always said "you don't get it".

About the time I DO get it, you LOST it.

 

jb

[Glenn]

"once i got it, they changed what it was."

[King Matt1548534716]

I'd like to see that on a T-shirt.

[OldCMC17]

Jeff,

Its time you move along, since you can't be happy no matter what anyone says.

Sell your car and buy a Mazda, that may make you happy in the long run.

Being negative does not help the series that you used to love so much so I would just end it and get out.

Tony Guaglione

 

MazdaSpeed3!!! Zoooom...zooom!!

 

Never been happier.

[Renntag1548534718]

"Where are the Mid-Atlantic guys ?"

 

I keep an eye on the forums here to try to stay current with CMC rules and goings on. I used to ask my local CMC brethren why they werent active here on the forum. I later learned quietly that I would learn for myself. (There are numerous posts to this effect). It was in a normal thread like this where out of no where came an Al Qaeda type attack. OK, I get it.

 

 

 

"Changing the rules for the Mid-Atlantic guys"

 

I cant even believe I actually read this above. CMC is growing and needs to evolve. In 2006 it was announced at the CMC meeting AT NATIONALS that a new series was being started to bring in new cars. It was also known that the 2 classes would later merge. Most of the current posters to this thread were at that meeting, as was I. This idea did NOT come from the Mid-Atlantic region.

 

 

"the new rules de-value my car"

 

This is an amazing thing. EVERYTHING devalues unless it has unique value on its own. Anyone who owns a race car and worries about its value really needs a reality check. Arent we told that if you cant afford to kick it off a cliff then keep it on the trailer (or at home)? For someone to complain that making a great racing series better devalues their car is really only thinking about themselves. (Not a great quality in a leader OR a follower, so go with the third option in this case).

 

 

 

"Why not come to nationals for fun?"

 

All of us know that this sport isnt cheap. We all do this for fun first and foremost. Many of the guys in our region come to the local events for the social aspect first. The racing is what makes it more exciting. Next is the expense, most of our races are, for all purposes, in the state of Virginia and as such makes it an easy weekend. We have fewer numbers at our one event that is 10+ hours away. When strictly looking at time and money given the above criteria, there is less value to go to nationals. Only a few of us have been to Mid-Ohio so the others have a new track to learn. The event is longer (more time), and far more expensive(more money). There are so many other expenses involved that it ceases to be just a "fun" endeavor.

 

 

 

Lastly,

 

Why cant we all just get along?

 

Put that on the back of the "t-shirt"

Edited August 22, 2008 by Guest

[ddteman1548534717]

I for one would rather hang out with my race buddies locally and race a few more weekends than treck across the county paying high fuel cost, taking a week vacation buying three sets of tires, fuel at the track, food, camping etc. For just another race weekend. If it really meant anything to any of us we would show up and make it the highlight of the year.

 

The low turn out is a sign of the times and the fact that most don't care if they are called National Champion or not. Guess I left my ego somewhere along the way. Really National Champion of what? A bunch of guys and a few girls driving around in their old Mustangs and Camaros.

 

CMC is budget "FUN" racing not pro racing it's for FUN and in the end if you Win you get a three dollar trophy to put on your wall. "That's it."

 

Sorry some of you have really lost the whole point af racing within a small "in racing terms" budget, just for the fun of it. That what CMC was.

 

Now it a class of check books. Can't wait till you guys try to add the new Camaro to the mix.

 

Good luck with the evolution of CMC.

 

DAN

Edited August 22, 2008 by Guest

[King Matt1548534716]

I agree that the low turnout in our class at the Nationals is a sign of the economy and the fact that many people racing in CMC have different goals for their program than running for a National title. I think we have to keep this in mind as we move forward, which is a big reason why I have not been very concerned about including the brand-new chassis in CMC at this point. Too early IMO.

 

The bottom line is that this is a class built on the concept of racing 5-15-year-old cars that can be built for under $10K. There is really no other class in any group where you can do that with a V-8 RWD car. That is our competitive advantage and we should not lose it. There are numerous other places where you can race a new Mustang or Camaro if you have the budget.

[Tony G]

Agree, and disagree with the last part.

CMC is not a series of fat check books, it is and always will be the cheapest way to get into racing with the fastest cars for the least money.

The Directors will always make sure that is the basis of the series.

If that were not true then why are we spending so much time making sure a fox body can run even with a LS1 car that is 15 years newer...that alone should show its a series that stays with the same broad horizons of the future.

CMC has cars that are $7,500 that can kill cars that are $20,000 all within the same group.

 

Tony Guaglione

[Glenn]

the National Champion comment was a little over the top. w/ an attitude like that, it will never mean anything. sounds like a comment from someone who has no chance of winning it, so might as well de-value it.

the Champ in each class of the SCCA Run-Off'seach year means something, just as the Champ of the NASA Nationals should and does. it is also a perfect oppertunity to race w/ people from other regions who you normally wouldnt get a chance to race w/. alot of us know each other from our respective class websites. its nice to meet and greet and race w/ one another. dinner in the evenings, beers at the track, god times had by all.

in 2006, it was really cool to try and figure out who was who w/out asking. lots of new faces. that year was the best one. w/ this year only being the 3rd year of many to come, its only going to get bigger and better. w/ guys like Dave S moving over form SCCA to NASA, that draws alot of attention to NASA. Dave is also one of the primary reasons i'm making the trip this year. think of it as a litmus test of sorts.

 

anyways, thats a really poor attitude towards what Nat's is all about.

[mitchntx1548534714]

the Champ in each class of the SCCA Run-Off'seach year means something, just as the Champ of the NASA Nationals should and does.

 

To who?

 

The point is, this racing venture means different things to different people. Too many are trying to apply their personal goals and motivation to another's goals and motivation. And it creates a terrible environment. Bragging rights on the internet are just that.

 

I;ve heard venues like this called racing's "special olympics" by successful, pro caliber drivers with real championship trophies hanging on their wall that had substance and meaning. And if you look at the grand scheme of things ... SCCA and NASA Nats is. Big fish in a little pond is another analogy.

 

Of the 1000s of drivers that show up at Run-Offs/Nationals, 1, maybe 2, will get a shot at something other than next year's special olympics. And how many of them will be successful? About the same percentage ...

 

It's great to see threads on here of previous CMC racers who have gone on to be successful. I think I've read about 2 ... maybe 3.

 

So if fame and glory is your motivation, then I fear you will be sorely disappointed.

 

The meeting of new racers and commeraderie is laughable. The last 2 years at Nationals, I witnessed regional segregation ... regions would pit together for the most part, parking trailers to create a wall between themselves and the rest of the world. Sure their were occasional travelling pockets of visitation. But for the most part, it looked like a regional race, just at a new track. So, what's the point?

 

If the MA guys are happy doing what they are doing, then I think we should support them, not attempt to coerce them into doing something they have no interest in. Especially if the attempt is motivated by some self-serving agenda.

[Renntag1548534718]

While this ship continues to sail off topic "Carbotech Contingency", I just want to comment that I think Dan's post was taken out of context. Dan is not saying that competing for the national champ spot in CMC has no value, he is saying, lets put this in perspective. The guys that have made the top spot of the podium the last 2 years have all of our respect for doing what it took to get there. I came in 2006 just to see what a NASA national was all about. I have been to AMA CCS, WERA, and other national finals numerous times as a competitor to see how I would do, learn something, and have fun at that level. It was a HUGE expense but worth it TO ME. Everyone has different priorities and to point a finger at one group for not coming to the big show is wrong.

 

After all of this blows over and people come to their senses, we will all have gone on with our daily lives and taken care of what is important to us. The day that my racing hobby has the potential to be my primary source income for supporting my family, I will be at every national final event.

 

I plan to make it to nationals again in the next few years, as do many of my fellow racers in the mid-atlantic region. There are priorities that have kept us from coming. 2 of our drivers for instance have non-negotiable, annual work related obligations in the month of September that keep them locked in at work. They may never make it to nationals (unless it is moved to October or November), but they follow along with what is going on because they care about the series.

 

Tony, can you organize a CMC "mountain retreat" in the off season so we can all get together and hold hands and be friends again?

[Glenn]

i'll step up and say i have no ill feelings to anyone here for their opinions. as you shouldnt towards me for mine. i like to think we can both express our feelings and not be upset w/ one another.

[Glenn]

as for the off topic thing, i'm w/ Jeff. the regions who pushed the hardest towards class consolidation (CMC/CMC2) are the ones who seem to have the lowest car count at Nats. in 2010, i expect the Nats to be huge for CMC.

[King Matt1548534716]

Tony, can you organize a CMC "mountain retreat" in the off season so we can all get together and hold hands and be friends again?

Great idea. Let's do it in Lexington, Ohio in about mid-September.

[ddteman1548534717]

Glenn I'm sure I could never convince you that I am plenty capable of winning and what would be the point. I got into CMC because I love racing and love Rear wheel drive V8s.

CMC appeals to me because the price is right. Hell if I had the money I would run in the Miller cup. If I really cared enough I would work at racing as I do other things to make them happen. "It's a expensive hobby"

 

When I 1st got involved in CMC any rules changes were shot down immediately now all this forum goes on about is what brakes to add how much more horse power we need to add, what trans will handle to added power.

I've seen it all before I see how the ever changing rules in all classes mess up any great series. CMC was different. Now it is the same as the rest and fast heading the way of American Sedan. Next we will be added $1800.00 double adjustable remote reservoir shocks like they did.

 

Here in the Mid Atlantic we have CMC and CMC2 but could have had every CMC2 car that was built Just be a CMC. We would of had 20 cars every race weekend. The snowball started rolling and now every fast CMC car has to spend more money to become CMC2 or the new "CMC/2010"

 

Glenn you can think what you want about how wonderful the Nationals are. It's another Amateur Race for a $10.00 Trophy. It just cost more to come play.

 

If it ani't broke don't fix it.

 

DAN

Edited August 22, 2008 by Guest

[ddteman1548534717]

CMC has cars that are $7,500 that can kill cars that are $20,000 all within the same group.

 

You have Driver beating other Drivers. Not cars beating other cars

 

Give me a $20,000 car that I built and I'll beat any $7500 car.

 

It's all wishful thinking Tony. A good driver in a $7500.00 car will be beat by a good driver with a well built $20,000 car. It's a class of check books Just like all the other classes.

 

The two class idea was fine, the merger has just rasied the price tag and it worst for the guys who have already got CMC cars these are the guys that had put it the time and built the series and this is how they are rewarded. It's fine for the new guys building cars. They don't have 3 set of 16 x 8 to get rid of and have to go buy 17" and find more power too and upgrade brakes all of which they had to pay top dollar for back when they built there car. As the dollar weakens so does the value of the older CMC cars which weren't worth any thing to start with...

 

DAN

Edited August 22, 2008 by Guest

[Renntag1548534718]

Even within our region we disagree. I dont agree with Dan that we have to spend ANY money to upgrade our cars. I am currently out performing CMC2 cars. I see no need to buy 17" wheels. They are heavier first of all. I am down on power from cmc and cmc2 and able to compete for the podium. Some people feel compelled to spend money, others do not. This class is set up such that you dont HAVE to spend money to have fun.

FWIW, yes Dan has the metal to be a national champion contender in CMC

 

.

 

i'll step up and say i have no ill feelings to anyone here for their opinions. as you shouldnt towards me for mine. i like to think we can both express our feelings and not be upset w/ one another.

I agree with you 100%. I have no problem with open discussion and I dont take any of this personally, but we still need to keep things in perspective and be gentlemanly at the same time.

 

 

 

as for the off topic thing, i'm w/ Jeff.

The topic is Carbotech contingency. Why THAT evolved into "Where's Waldo?" I have no idea.

 

 

 

...the regions who pushed the hardest towards class consolidation (CMC/CMC2) are the ones who seem to have the lowest car count at Nats.

I dont even know WHO that is, and it doesnt matter.

Some regions have primarily older cars, some regions have many newer cars. Ours for example, has many late models coming from HPDE.

 

I dont know about closed door discussions within CMC's top ranks, but we are about to go through a very difficult transition period. Its happening whether we like it or not. We can choose to ride out the waves and be supportive, or stand up and complain and get lost overboard. We have an awesome series, lets make it grow.

 

No one has commented on all the other issues surrounding our classes combining. What about the loss of contingency payout to one group instead of two? We need to get organized and pressure Toyo and others to push more money down the line. Why no discussion about that?

 

 

in 2010, i expect the Nats to be huge for CMC.

I expect each year to be better. 2009 and 2010 are going to be tough since the class is evolving AND growing at the same time.

Edited August 22, 2008 by Guest

[jeffburch]

Dan? Dan who? It helps (if it isn't obvious who you are) to sign your posts please.

 

Colin, please find the quote button in the upper right. You quotes earlier are misquotes.

 

Also, my car being forsale and me bitching about the value is to make a point folks. An illustration to help those they might not be aware of what the repercussions are with owning the older cars.

Besides the expense you will endure over the next couple of years to upgrade, the market value of what you've already invested a substantial amout in just went down. Way down.

 

thx,

jb

[Rustang72]

I am one of the new people in MA that Colin and Kent referred to earlier in the thread. I have absolutely no motivation to go to Nationals this year (I am not qualified anyway). It would cost 2-3 times what a normal race weekend costs. I wouldn't be hanging out the whole weekend with the usual great group of racers and HPDE drivers. I don't have a chance in hell of winning anything. Sure it would be fun to go see what it's all about, try out a different track, and meet some more people. I would rather wait a year or two until all the tired old MA cars are rebuilt, I have more experience racing my car, and I have a chance of finishing in the upper half of the field.

 

As to the side comments about rules changes, I don't see what the problem is. I just bought a CMC car that was rebuilt 2 years ago. From what I have seen of races and what I'm told about the car, it would have no problems getting a pole and win in either CMC or CMC2. (me driving it wouldn't get close) Does it need a new engine, brakes, wheels, tires, etc? NO! Would they help? Maybe. If I blow the engine up, sure I would upgrade to a CMC2 level motor, but that wouldn't cost much if any more than a new CMC motor. Having the option for 16" or 17" wheels doesn't force you to pay more money for wheels, it gives you more options so you can find a better deal and save money on wheels, new tires, or used tires. I'll believe the big brake hype when I see somebody outbrake Mike Morris at VIR or when I see any CMC car outbrake my 3300lb+ 928 with single piston 11" front brakes. Maybe in 2+ years when everybody else has all the new options, you will have to upgrade to be competitive. Right now, I don't see any point in complaining about more options. If your stuff breaks, upgrade. If it doesn't break, don't 'fix' it.

 

FWIW, The car I bought is Dan's old car.

[Renntag1548534718]

Dan? Dan who? It helps (if it isn't obvious who you are) to sign your posts please.

Dan is a front running CMC driver in our region. WHO he is makes no difference, his opinion is valid, as is yours and that of the next poster.

 

Colin, please find the quote button in the upper right. You quotes earlier are misquotes.

Thanks for the forum lesson, not needed, but thanks anyway. I am well aware of "the buttons". My quotes were general and not literal. I am sorry you didnt pick up on that and apologize if you feel I mis-quoted you specifically. I think my point was clear and nit-picking doesnt resolve or accomplish anything.

 

 

 

Also, my car being forsale and me bitching about the value is to make a point folks.

What point? Do you wish to own a museum piece? Are you trying to sell your car for 3 times its realistic value? The current state of the American Economy plays a much greater role in the value of your car than our series directors having vision of the future of this series.

 

 

 

An illustration to help those they might not be aware of what the repercussions are with owning the older cars.

They are old. This is why a modern day Honda can out perform an old Muscle car on the street. Evolution.

 

 

 

Besides the expense you will endure over the next couple of years to upgrade,

next couple years? Where is the expense? This is what I dont understand. Run your car until it breaks, at that time you stop and say....."Hmmm, it will cost me 4000$ to build the same motor I just destroyed, OR I can build a motor for CMC2 or CMC2010 for the same 4000$...." This is what we are doing in our region. I am not upgrading my power levels until I need to. At that time I would have had to spend money anyway. I am not upgrading my brakes or my wheels. There is little to no benefit. Why do we beat AI cars? We are better drivers? We have lesser cars and out perform AI. Stick with what you have.

 

 

... the market value of what you've already invested a substantial amout in just went down. Way down.

 

I would really like to know how many people have built CMC cars as an investment. Honestly. I have some stocks that are tanking that I would like to sell, any takers?

 

I built my current CMC car to have fun. I know that I will not see much if any of the thousands of dollars I have spent. Hell, where is all the money I invested in beer? Since the value of urine has plummeted, I am losing so much money its ridiculous.

 

[ddteman1548534717]

Renntag wrote "Sorry for the misuse of the Quote button"

 

Even within our region we disagree. I dont agree with Dan that we have to spend ANY money to upgrade our cars. I am currently out performing CMC2 cars. I see no need to buy 17" wheels. They are heavier first of all. I am down on power from cmc and cmc2 and able to compete for the podium. Some people feel compelled to spend money, others do not.

 

 

Your not beating cars your beating drivers big difference... There are cars in the Mid Atlantic that would pound your fox body if someone else was driving it. Look at the 2006 champs car finishing position with a different driver.

 

It will happen.

 

Wait till a good driver shows up with all the bells and whistlers in a CMC2 car. All the fast CMC Drivers will be scrabling to find power brakes wheels

 

"Sorry for the misuse of the Quote button"

 

DAN Thanks for the props Collin "we'll never know"

Edited August 22, 2008 by Guest

[Glenn]

Dan is the Man....... cause he told me so. Jeff, mail the Nats bling to Dan.

 

all in good fun Dan.

 

i would love more people at Nats who could win. once we have 20 cars w/ each having an equal chance at winning i will be very happy. untill then, i'll be less than thrilled about the lack of regional participation. i got into this cause it was a competition (also known as a race).

add to the fact that the event is held very close to the MA region is another point Jeff was making. i guess we will see you guys at Road Atlanta, VIR, or Barber one year.

[ddteman1548534717]

Dan is the Man....... cause he told me so. Jeff, mail the Nats bling to Dan.quote] Dam still can't get that button to work

 

I have a box full of Bling I'll put them on ebay if anyone is interested.

 

Bottom line is guys Money is tight for more than a few. You have to pick your battles and how and where you have fun. That's all It's been fun.

 

Peace

 

Dan "the Should have would have could have" National Champ...2010 in my 2009 Camaro LS3 CMC car that I didn't need a big check book to build. That could be beat by a $7500.00 Fox body with a four link. Now that's funny

Edited August 22, 2008 by Guest

[j dawes]

"Changing the rules for the Mid-Atlantic guys"

 

I cant even believe I actually read this above.

 

I think it's because nobody said that...not sure where you got it. Maybe that's what Jeff B. was referencing. No big deal either way, other than I wanted to clarify that I don't think anybody said anything about the rules being changed for the M-A guys. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

As I usually do, I'll put my neck on the chopping block and say this: anybody have a good history of CMC, or similar series [some folks have mentioned A-Sedan]? It would be nice to add some 'facts' to the discussion re: what happened when CMC2 was created. Did the new cars beat the old ones in a substantial fashion? Have other series died as a result of the types of changes proposed in 2010, and will this one die if we repeat the same mistakes?

 

I honestly don't know. Part of me thinks the change is a bad idea for all the above reasons. Part of me thinks change is good for all the above reasons. The other part of me says I don't give a sh!t, either way, whether it's called CMC or Stick Axle V8 3 pedal racing or The Budget American Series, I'm going to be part of it. Maybe I'm not a competitive enough person at the moment to really care all that deeply about podium finishes...that could change.

 

People join CMC in the MidAtlantic because of Kevin London, Kent Lydic, The Dr. Joyce Brothers, Ron Cates, Colin Jevens, Bill Velasco, Hal Krein, Dan Skittral...and all the rest of them!!! They join cause they've heard that the CMC drivers are the ones to hang out with on and off the track. Rule change or no, I'm going to be a part of CMC no matter if my fat slow pig of a car wins or not.

 

Carbotech what????

 

JD

[Rustang72]

I think it's because nobody said that...not sure where you got it. Maybe that's what Jeff B. was referencing. No big deal either way, other than I wanted to clarify that I don't think anybody said anything about the rules being changed for the M-A guys. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You actually did well in reinforcing my previous points.

A) Why turn over the rule book for a demographic that can't afford it (for the newer cars that)

B)don't show up for the big race.

 

jb

The implied demographic is Mid-Atlantic CMC drivers of which only one is going to Nationals.