Unofficial HC National results

[SMSP]

d) I am shocked to hear that people were building LS/Vtec engines and machining TypeR rods. I would consider this very illegal and I know I have told everyone that has ever asked that I would consider that modification to be non compliant.

 

But, I could see where it could be argued that the builder was just machining to obtain proper clearances for a blueprint build. No real difference when compared to the Bernardo argument.

[JW Racing]

this will be swpet under the rug, no big deal. if youre gonna run H1 you better have money to build the crap out of your engine.

 

which is funny, you can blow your months salary on a cylinder head but have to run a stock intake mani/TB, LOL .... hilarious.

 

 

IMO get the rules cleaned up or all theres gonna be is H4. which it pretty much is already...

[slammed_93_hatch]

 

IMO get the rules cleaned up or all theres gonna be is H4. which it pretty much is already...

 

Except in NorCal, Mid West, and EC. You really need to have a broader out look on HC, rather then just SoCal.

 

NorCal has 10-15 H1 cars, along with the mid west and EC.

 

As some one pointed out before you are new to this game, and don't seem to get/understand a lot. Which is great new blood is always needed, but don't say things that you have little to no Knowledge of.

[JW Racing]

go to mylaps.com and tell me if I am wrong... I have the right to an opinion,especially in the region I will be competing in.

 

 

you should be the chairman

[Jeremy C.]

this will be swpet under the rug, no big deal. if youre gonna run H1 you better have money to build the crap out of your engine.

 

 

 

HAHA! Yeah, whatever!

 

Ryan already explained everything that needs explaining at this point. His post was short, and to the point. If you don't understand what he's saying, go back and re-read it!

 

Swept under the rug, that's funny, it really is.

Everyone on the committee knows what's going on and it will be worked out.

 

 

Umm, you really are new to HC aren't you! H1 has always been a "better have bigs bucks to build your motor" class. It's only been very recently that you could spend "big bucks on your swap" instead of building the motor.

 

If you check into what's happened in the past, you probably wont have the same attitude you do now!

 

 

I'm very glad to see so much enthusiasm and excitement regarding HC as a whole. It's looking great for the future of the series if this many people care so deeply!

Great discussion

[JW Racing]

I understand you all are working on it, I am sure Im not the only one interested in updates who is building a car or making changes for next season..

let me clarify the big bucks part, everyone who races knows xx money is spent on an engine, say 2-3 thousand. To you thats big bucks to race .. to me thats not. Now add bernardos engine, I got a quote from the builder of it. 10-11 thousand with a custom header, Now THATS big bucks( I built my whole car for that).. there is a huge difference in a budget they can afford and one I can afford. The front page of the rule book is clear I think,as it says HC was created to minimize cost and modifications to make things competitive and affordable, not "we are going to make you build a 2.4 litre 11k dollar engine to race with H1 or you have to race H4 ".

 

This is exactly why not many smaller displacement engines are even seen in H1. You can only build an engine so much. And to top it all off its not cheap even for B series to run H1 because you have to build the engine so much to be able compete, it needs to be rebuilt 2 times a season.

 

 

This is the best fix and simple for everyone.

 

-Leave the engine building rules alone

-Remove 50 lbs from the B series limit

-make K20 and H series 2300lbs(or let K20 run cams at 2400)

-leave K24 alone

 

Now everyone is lighter a bit, more competitive to the high dollar engines, and Bernardo and Chris dont have to have Brake issues and kill their tires with the added weight.

 

this is fair for everyone

Edited September 24, 2007 by Guest

[2k2s2k]

And the S2000? Or the NSX? Where do they fit into this plan? I'm new to it all, but from what I've seen the S is not competitive already. And I haven't heard of an NSX in this class at all.

[ekim952522000]

I understand you all are working on it, I am sure Im not the only one interested in updates who is building a car or making changes for next season..

Give em a break the seaon is not even over.

 

 

there is a huge difference in a budget they can afford and one I can afford.

Welcome to racing =)

 

 

The front page of the rule book is clear I think,as it says HC was created to minimize cost and modifications to make things competitive and affordable, not "we are going to make you build a 2.4 litre 11k dollar engine to race with H1 or you have to race H4 ".

I don't think it is fair to act like they are not doing this, they completely revamped H2 this year so people who want a cheaper place to race hybrids have a place to. Have you though of running H2?

 

 

This is exactly why not many smaller displacement engines are even seen in H1. You can only build an engine so much. And to top it all off its not cheap even for B series to run H1 because you have to build the engine so much to be able compete, it needs to be rebuilt 2 times a season.

I hope this does not come off as rude but anyone who reads a rule book that basically allows a open engine from the block up and expects it to be cheap needs to do more research.

 

 

This is the best fix and simple for everyone.

 

-Leave the engine building rules alone

-Remove 50 lbs from the B series limit

-make K20 and H series 2300lbs

-leave K24 alone

 

Now everyone is lighter a bit, more competitive to the high dollar engines, and Bernardo and Chris dont have to have Brake issues and kill their tires with the added weight.

 

"Remove 50 lbs from the B series limit"

You can do whatever you want here you can tell the B series guys to remove 150lbs to help them compete with the Bernardo engine it would not matter, Most cannot make weight as is. My cars weight is 2250lbs and has no heater core, no wipers, and all wiring including the stuff to the headlights is gone. I could still add a carbon hatch and lexan windows if I was going to run H1 but I weigh 190lbs and you're asking me to make a race weight of 2200lbs? I highly doubt I could make the 2250lbs

 

 

"make K20 and H series 2300lbs"

I see no reason that the K20 and H22 need 100lbs removed from the minimum weight could you explain why you think this change is needed?

 

"leave K24 alone"

Then Andrie will build a K24 (as he should) so he can compete with Bernardo, then how would everyone keep up?

the small amount of weight dropping you have suggested above I highly doubt would do it. Chris who said he has no desire to build Bernardo's engine would have no chance against him.

 

It seems like the changes you are suggesting would make it "build the K24 or go home class"

 

this is fair for everyone

Except for the guys who would like to run a B series because they are having a hard time making weight as is, and now you have asked them to try to take another 50lbs off there car. I dont think K series guys like Chris who do not want to have to build Bernardo's engine would be happy with the "leave the engine building rules alone" part eiether.

 

I hope none of this came off as mean or like I am picking on you none of it was intended that way. I just don't feel like you have the series best interest in your heart, it seems like you are only thinking about how this stuff effects you.

[DaveWright]

I'm very glad to see so much enthusiasm and excitement regarding HC as a whole. It's looking great for the future of the series if this many people care so deeply!

Great discussion

You know after reading these threads. I will agree with this statement 100%.

[JW Racing]

I feel what your saying mike, i have shots taken at me all the time, Im used to it because I am me and I am different..not everyone feels or knows the same as each

 

Also I may just run H2 to not worry about this engine thing. I can afford to race H1 as well if I want to, which was my intention with a k series, I am speaking on behalf of many who cant compete in H1 these days but want to.

 

I would love to see 10-15 H1 and H2 cars at each event like H4, that would eventually make it all hondas out there which is what I want.I think thats wrong to question my heart and loyalty for HC with out knowing me. I am going to be one of many talked about new comers next year with the quality car, sponsors and publicity I will be contributing to HC. I hope my welcome will be warmer than your responses have been to my comments.

[Chris F]

this is fair for everyone

Come on. Show me how to cut another 100 lbs out of my Prelude (from 2400 to 2300) and... I'll let you drive it.

 

Don't pretend there is a "fair for everyone" solution, and don't pretend to have all the answers.

 

The rules committee will figure it out. Stop taking potshots at them. They want to see H1 (and H2) as balanced and as successful as possible, just as much as the competitors do.

 

-Chris

[JW Racing]

this is fair for everyone

Come on. Show me how to cut another 100 lbs out of my Prelude (from 2400 to 2300) and... I'll let you drive it.

 

Don't pretend there is a "fair for everyone" solution, and don't pretend to have all the answers.

 

The rules committee will figure it out. Stop taking potshots at them. They want to see H1 (and H2) as balanced and as successful as possible, just as much as the competitors do.

 

-Chris

100lbs.. easy come by and Ill show you,composite panels.. ..these are merely suggestions. I never said in any post I have the solution. and dont be mad at me you have a chassis you are limited by..

[brian g]

If (aftermarket) ARP rod bolts (fasteners) ARE allowed why can't boring the small end of a rod be allowed?

 

 

I can't answer of what is allowed or not allowed since that is the rule maker job.

 

But I will try to explain why I think the two are different. To use ARP rod bolt on B series rod, require re-honing the big end of the rod to original specification. This is called servicing or blue printing.

 

To bore the small end of a rod 1mm bigger is modifying. Not blueprinting.

 

That is a moot point, though, since the rule addendum clearly specify bearing is free. Although I still think it need further clarification on the matter, since I don't think a bushing is a bearing.

 

I know this was said days ago, but I think some clarification is needed.

 

To use ARP rod bolt on B series rod, require re-honing the big end of the rod to original specification. This is called servicing or blue printing.

 

I know this is splitting hairs and I'm not really sure if it is pertinent to this argument but...If you are restoring it to original spec it is servicing, if you are honing to the optimal spec you are blueprinting.

 

Interesting you should bring this up though. Back in the day when rebuilding V8 drag motors replacing the small end bearing in the rods was a normal part of servicing the rods.

 

To bore the small end of a rod 1mm bigger is modifying. Not blueprinting.

 

To bore the small end of the rod is modifying and therefore illegal. To bore the bushing to the proper clearance with the wristpin is blue printing. If you think that is a gray area of the rules, remember bearings are unrestricted.

 

Although I still think it need further clarification on the matter, since I don't think a bushing is a bearing.

 

A bushing by definition is several things. Here is a copy of the definition taken from the Random House Unabridged Dictionary found on the website Dictionary.com

bush·ing [boosh-ing] –noun

1. Electricity. a lining for a hole, intended to insulate and protect from abrasion one or more conductors that pass through it.

2. Machinery.

a. a replaceable thin tube or sleeve, usually of bronze, mounted in a case or housing as a bearing.

b. a replaceable hardened steel tube used as a guide for various tools or parts, as a drill or valve rod.

 

Obviously definition 2. a. is an exact description of the bushing in question. Many types of engines actually use a needle bearing on the small end of the connecting rod instead of a bushing style bearing. Although a bushing can also do other things these are clearly for friction reduction.

 

brian g

[slammed_93_hatch]

i have no clue if this is true but some one said the the bushing was .8mm thick, and that the s2k wrist pin is 1mm larger.

 

If this is the case, then it is going beyond the bearing. I have no clue if this is true or not, but the thought crossed my mind when i saw brian g's post

[6ghatch]

i have no clue if this is true but some one said the the bushing was .8mm thick, and that the s2k wrist pin is 1mm larger.

 

If this is the case, then it is going beyond the bearing. I have no clue if this is true or not, but the thought crossed my mind when i saw brian g's post

 

I'm guessing they are talking about wall thinkness, if the bushing has a wall thinkness of .8mm think then after you machined it 1mm larger you would be left with a wall thinkness of .3mm. If this is all that was done.

[brian g]

The opening in the rod is aproximately 24mm, the bushing is more like 1mm thick. That leaves the bushing just shy of .5 mm with optimized clearance.

 

brian g

[0x1]

let me clarify the big bucks part, everyone who races knows xx money is spent on an engine, say 2-3 thousand. To you thats big bucks to race .. to me thats not.

 

Perhaps this is the problem in your perception that people keep picking at. Most of the competitive H4 cars have at least that much in their motors. If you were planning to build a competitive H1 motor for that, then it is you who was misguided. The thing that the veterans are trying to get across to you is that we've all been out there going wheel to wheel with each other for several years now and we understand that these issues are complicated. Meanwhile, you have no practical experience (that we know of) and seem to think you have all the answers. I think you'd be better served to approach the situation with a little more humility if you want the warm welcome that you're expecting.

 

Edit: by motor i meant motor + tranny ... in H4 the trannies often cost as much or more than the motors

[Andrie]

Brian,

 

I'm glad you take the time to explain. You've been in this racing, engine building thing for a while. I'm sure all of us can learn from you.

 

I do have a question, the few engine builders I asked told me that blue printing requires one of the bushing to be within factory specification. Is that correct, or there are other definition of blue printing?

 

Looking at the definition you posted, it is clear that the rule addendum that were issued two weeks before the Nationals made it legal, where it wasn't before. I know it worked in your favor, but you and Bernardo are not to blame. You did everything right.

 

I do value your opinion, and would like to hear your input on how to maintain equality in H1 for 2008? To make the engine legal would be more beneficial to me in the long run. The power is close to my World Challenge engine, running with that power level all year can only mean I might pick up a thing or two I didn't in the past.

[brian g]

Brian,

 

I'm glad you take the time to explain. You've been in this racing, engine building thing for a while. I'm sure all of us can learn from you.

 

I do have a question, the few engine builders I asked told me that blue printing requires one of the bushing to be within factory specification. Is that correct, or there are other definition of blue printing?

 

If you look at the Honda Factory Service Manual there is a page on the wrist pin clearances. We used the technique described in the Honda Factory Service Manual to measure the wrist pin size and bushing ID. A range of clearance is called for, we bored it to the specified clearance.

 

brian g

[mikeski38]

Brian,

 

I'm glad you take the time to explain. You've been in this racing, engine building thing for a while. I'm sure all of us can learn from you.

 

I do have a question, the few engine builders I asked told me that blue printing requires one of the bushing to be within factory specification. Is that correct, or there are other definition of blue printing?

 

If you look at the Honda Factory Service Manual there is a page on the wrist pin clearances. We used the technique described in the Honda Factory Service Manual to measure the wrist pin size and bushing ID. A range of clearance is called for, we bored it to the specified clearance.

 

brian g

 

...but there is also a spec for bushing ID. After the modification was the bushing ID within factory spec for the K24 wrist pin? IMO, for the mod to be legal under the "blue printing" clause, ALL measurements must be within factory specs.

[wm577]

ALL measurements must be within factory specs.

 

factory spec for wich car? The car that the pistons came from? the car that the rods came from? The car that the block came from? ect.... The rules don't tell us that either.

[brian g]

ALL measurements must be within factory specs.

 

factory spec for wich car? The car that the pistons came from? the car that the rods came from? The car that the block came from? ect.... The rules don't tell us that either.

 

The car the wrist pin comes from of course.

 

In the Hybrid rules, OEM means any model, domestic market or generation. So the OEM spec is correct for what we are measuring. Namely wristpin clearance for the S2000 wristpin.

 

brian g

Edited September 25, 2007 by Guest

[JW Racing]

slightly related...

 

 

when I asked for rules clarification on H2 GSR engines to run a type r cams, I was told no.

 

see rules below

 

 

All Honda/Acura All B18C1 OEM Cam, OEM ITR or Blox

“ITRâ€

[brian g]

slightly related...

 

 

when I asked for rules clarification on H2 GSR engines to run a type r cams, I was told no.

 

see rules below

 

 

All Honda/Acura All B18C1 OEM Cam, OEM ITR or Blox

“ITRâ€

[JW Racing]

I saw that, but to me thats not right to have 2 definitions. OEM is OEM that means any honda/acura to me. it should apply to all engines in HC.

 

another example H2 100% oem for the b16b and b18c type R engines. to me I can use any honda acura part, thats 100% OEM ..but not. strange

 

I understand Limited prep is H2 and thats why the OEM rule difference, but why allow BLox manifolds then?

Edited September 25, 2007 by Guest