StealthTT Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 I honestly have not seen anyone able to show why there shouldn't be a reduction in the AWD penalty and reduction of the 4-door reward. Probably because most people think they are fair! Another brilliant and well thought out contribution to this thread. Thank you. Just because I don't try to make the same useless point 14 different ways, does not make it less of a contribution. I could easily drone on and on about my point, but there is no need to waste that much time. At this point you're not being a good contribution to this forum. Step back and re-evaluate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowwrx Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 Hmmm. I think the system is pretty fair the way it is now. I can't say I really have any complaints. For 15th time, the 4 door cars get a bonus of 0.4 almost negating the 0.5 penalty for AWD. Of course you think it's fair. You and other 4-door AWD's would carry only a 16lb handicap. A 2-door, AWD car would carry a 143lb handicap. You have to compare apples to apples. For the first time, fuck you. I come to this forum because I don't have to deal with bullshit comments like that. Its my opinion, have some respect, if you don't like it tough. How many 2 door awd cars run in the series...2...3... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosm3os Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 Wow, this one took a bad turn fast. I smell a lock coming! Seriously, there's no reason we can't have a nice discussion on this, or any, issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthTT Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 Hmmm. I think the system is pretty fair the way it is now. I can't say I really have any complaints. For 15th time, the 4 door cars get a bonus of 0.4 almost negating the 0.5 penalty for AWD. Of course you think it's fair. You and other 4-door AWD's would carry only a 16lb handicap. A 2-door, AWD car would carry a 143lb handicap. You have to compare apples to apples. For the first time, foo-fiddily-diddily you. I come to this forum because I don't have to deal with bullshit comments like that. Its my opinion, have some respect, if you don't like it tough. How many 2 door awd cars run in the series...2...3... Don't get hurt because you're argument had no merit. I take it you didn't consider the 4-door reward almost negates the AWD penalty. I was courteous to you even though I had to repeat myself again and again. The least you can do is show some decorum. Seriously....you told me to f*ck off? Wow....I can't believe you felt the need to type and then post that. Wow.... I wholeheartedly believe that the AWD penalty and 4-door reward are both too large. If there was a set of rules that unfairly penalized turbo FWD's, would you like to see those changed? What if people said they shouldn't be changed because only a handful of people are running turbo FWD's? What if it had been that way for years and people didn't join the NASA club because they felt unfairly penalized? And don't muck up this thread and get it locked. I would seriously like to see what Greg G. has to say about my points. I think I've presented a valid argument and so far no one has rebutted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowoldpoop Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 [How many 2 door awd cars run in the series...2...3... Well, there WAS me. I don't know of any others in TT. When I was in TTB, I was competitive. With last year's rule changes, I got kicked to TTS, where I am not. I thought about maybe detuning and trying TTA, but recent discussions here point out that there is no real difference between TTA and TTS, and the same cars dominate both classes, so that's out. Looks like HPDE4 for me and running for fun, because nobody will change the rules to benefit a single car--even if it might attract more cars, such as DSMs and 3000GTs, a bunch of which are running HPDE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosm3os Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 FWIW, just thought of another 2dr AWD that could get to TTS--VW R32. SOP, you said earlier that you could compete with the vettes in TTA, what happened? This is internet bench racing--you should be getting faster from post to post, not slower!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowoldpoop Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 SOP, you said earlier that you could compete with the vettes in TTA, what happened? This is internet bench racing--you should be getting faster from post to post, not slower!!! As in, the older I get, the faster I was? I can run with TTA cars at the regional level (not national) with my car in its current state of tune. If I detune by 50 hp to get into TTA, I probably won't be able to compete with them any more. The only penalty for me that ever made sense for my 2dr AWD car was the point system, which let me run TTB last year. Now that I have to compete on a wt/hp basis, the penalty is too severe. Maybe I should cut two more doors into the rear quarter panel, and get the 4-door giveaway points! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosm3os Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 I wonder if an rx-8 would be considered 2 or 4 doors if it were AWD? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowwrx Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 Hmmm. I think the system is pretty fair the way it is now. I can't say I really have any complaints. For 15th time, the 4 door cars get a bonus of 0.4 almost negating the 0.5 penalty for AWD. Of course you think it's fair. You and other 4-door AWD's would carry only a 16lb handicap. A 2-door, AWD car would carry a 143lb handicap. You have to compare apples to apples. For the first time, foo-fiddily-diddily you. I come to this forum because I don't have to deal with bullshit comments like that. Its my opinion, have some respect, if you don't like it tough. How many 2 door awd cars run in the series...2...3... Don't get hurt because you're argument had no merit. I take it you didn't consider the 4-door reward almost negates the AWD penalty. I was courteous to you even though I had to repeat myself again and again. The least you can do is show some decorum. Seriously....you told me to f*ck off? Wow....I can't believe you felt the need to type and then post that. Wow.... I wholeheartedly believe that the AWD penalty and 4-door reward are both too large. If there was a set of rules that unfairly penalized turbo FWD's, would you like to see those changed? What if people said they shouldn't be changed because only a handful of people are running turbo FWD's? What if it had been that way for years and people didn't join the NASA club because they felt unfairly penalized? And don't muck up this thread and get it locked. I would seriously like to see what Greg G. has to say about my points. I think I've presented a valid argument and so far no one has rebutted. Thats just it, I understand youre point, stop screaming it everytime you get a chance...stop repeating it...we can all read, thats why we are on a message forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowwrx Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 It wouldn't hurt my feelings if every class was straight power to weight ratio. Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthTT Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 Thats just it, I understand youre point, stop screaming it everytime you get a chance...stop repeating it...we can all read, thats why we are on a message forum. If you don't want to debate this topic anymore than stop replying. If you don't want to see us talk about it, than don't even open the thread. You have the choice. It's that simple. p.s. Still waiting for Greg G. to poke his head in. I'd really like to see what he has to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roadracetransam Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 [How many 2 door awd cars run in the series...2...3... Looks like HPDE4 for me and running for fun, because nobody will change the rules to benefit a single car--even if it might attract more cars, such as DSMs and 3000GTs, a bunch of which are running HPDE. What is preventing you from running just for fun in TT? It cost the same, and your fellow competitors would appriciate having more competitors in their group for contingency reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowoldpoop Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 What is preventing you from running just for fun in TT? It cost the same, and your fellow competitors would appriciate having more competitors in their group for contingency reasons. I guess I could do that, too. Thanks for pointing that out. Yes, I could run in TTS, even though I don't have a prayer. I did not realize that it could benefit somebody else "for contingency reasons." I could also cheat like blazes, run the boost up to 410 hp like everybody else has in the class, and see what happens. Naw, I wouldn't do that. Cheat? Heavens forbid. I ain't no Audi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowoldpoop Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 Golly whiz bang, this thread is getting downright interesting. I thought it was over about 50 posts ago, but it seems to have a life of its own. It hasn't been locked down yet which means: a) Greg is on vacation in Tahiti and has no access to the Internet or b) the points being made on both sides are valid, and worth discussing. I vote for (b). Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 It wouldn't hurt my feelings if every class was straight power to weight ratio. Matt it would hurt mine, are you kidding? fully open everything as long as you meet say, 20lbs/hp for TTF? no thanks... I'll compete elsewhere if that happens Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1LapSRT Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 What is preventing you from running just for fun in TT? It cost the same, and your fellow competitors would appriciate having more competitors in their group for contingency reasons. I guess I could do that, too. Thanks for pointing that out. Yes, I could run in TTS, even though I don't have a prayer. I did not realize that it could benefit somebody else "for contingency reasons." I could also cheat like blazes, run the boost up to 410 hp like everybody else has in the class, and see what happens. Naw, I wouldn't do that. Cheat? Heavens forbid. I ain't no Audi. See...there goes that big HP assumption again. I have nothing that high in HP and I am only FWD (w/ 4 doors). Yet I am competitive. You know that all the suspension is free now that you are in TTS. No more points for the goodies underneath! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roadracetransam Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 What is preventing you from running just for fun in TT? It cost the same, and your fellow competitors would appriciate having more competitors in their group for contingency reasons. I guess I could do that, too. Thanks for pointing that out. Yes, I could run in TTS, even though I don't have a prayer. I did not realize that it could benefit somebody else "for contingency reasons." I could also cheat like blazes, run the boost up to 410 hp like everybody else has in the class, and see what happens. Naw, I wouldn't do that. Cheat? Heavens forbid. I ain't no Audi. See...there goes that big HP assumption again. I have nothing that high in HP and I am only FWD (w/ 4 doors). Yet I am competitive. You know that all the suspension is free now that you are in TTS. No more points for the goodies underneath! HP helps, but it ain't everything. We are not drag racing..... remember. For one thing, its get's tricky to put power down above 350 whp coming out of corners. Hmmm.... maybe thats the reason for the AWD penalty... Just thinking out loud here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowoldpoop Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 See...there goes that big HP assumption again. I have nothing that high in HP and I am only FWD (w/ 4 doors). Yet I am competitive. You know that all the suspension is free now that you are in TTS. No more points for the goodies underneath! 410 hp would make me even with the Vettes in TTS. If they can have it, why not me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roadracetransam Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 See...there goes that big HP assumption again. I have nothing that high in HP and I am only FWD (w/ 4 doors). Yet I am competitive. You know that all the suspension is free now that you are in TTS. No more points for the goodies underneath! 410 hp would make me even with the Vettes in TTS. If they can have it, why not me? I hate to brake it to you but an Eclipse will never be a Corvette. To beat them you need more than just the same amout of HP. On the flip side Corvettes are not unbeatable. I am sure it could be done with plenty of $$$ in an Eclipse, even if it has to have less power. It might even be possible with even less capeable cars with even more $$$$. Let's not try to change the rules in "unlimited" classes. If you don't want to run in the expensive classes, don't. Run your car in the "cheaper" classes. If you are not willing to "detune" your car to TTF-TTA than there you go! This is tread is "silly," but it did bring up a good point. Why is there the 4 door credit???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowoldpoop Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 [I hate to brake it to you but an Eclipse will never be a Corvette. To beat them you need more than just the same amout of HP. On the flip side Corvettes are not unbeatable. I am sure it could be done with plenty of $$$ in an Eclipse, even if it has to have less power. It might even be possible with even less capeable cars with even more $$$$. Let's not try to change the rules in "unlimited" classes. If you don't want to run in the expensive classes, don't. Run your car in the "cheaper" classes. If you are not willing to "detune" your car to TTF-TTA than there you go! This is tread is "silly," but it did bring up a good point. Why is there the 4 door credit???? A year ago, that's where I was: in TTB, and competitive. Even against TTB Corvettes. Now, with rule changes, I am in TTS and uncompetitive. Same car. I would LOVE to go back to TTB. But, since I am stuck here in TTS, at least let me run the same hp they do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roadracetransam Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 [I hate to brake it to you but an Eclipse will never be a Corvette. To beat them you need more than just the same amout of HP. On the flip side Corvettes are not unbeatable. I am sure it could be done with plenty of $$$ in an Eclipse, even if it has to have less power. It might even be possible with even less capeable cars with even more $$$$. Let's not try to change the rules in "unlimited" classes. If you don't want to run in the expensive classes, don't. Run your car in the "cheaper" classes. If you are not willing to "detune" your car to TTF-TTA than there you go! This is tread is "silly," but it did bring up a good point. Why is there the 4 door credit???? A year ago, that's where I was: in TTB, and competitive. Even against TTB Corvettes. Now, with rule changes, I am in TTS and uncompetitive. Same car. I would LOVE to go back to TTB. But, since I am stuck here in TTS, at least let me run the same hp they do. This is nothing new. Last year I was in TTC. I got moved to TTB overnight, and had to add a lots of ballast in to stay in TTB. Lots of guys/gals got moved around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowoldpoop Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 This is nothing new. Last year I was in TTC. I got moved to TTB overnight, and had to add a lots of ballast in to stay in TTB. Lots of guys/gals got moved around. Well, at least you didn't jump two classes, and found a way back. I can't go back to TTB If I detune for TTA, I am against the same cars, same hp as TTS, same lap times. New motto for 2dr AWD cars: I serve one purpose in TTS class On which no man can decry I quietly sit in the back of the pack And keep the contingency numbers high Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heavychevy Posted October 30, 2007 Author Share Posted October 30, 2007 How many 2 door awd cars run in the series...2...3... Does it matter how many??? I know plenty that plan to be running next year, so will it be important then? I think the problem is with the 4door cars, because without an AWD penalty you essentially be giving the STI's Subaru's etc a big advantage with the +4 sedan credit, which needs to be dealt with also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varkwso Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 ....410 hp would make me even with the Vettes in TTS. If they can have it, why not me? Corvettes cannot run 410 HP in TTA or TTS - I wish they could - but they cannot. The limit of 295 R-compound tires in a TTA ZO6 really limits the power you can put down through the corners - especially with a few heat cycles in them. That tire limit really penalizes the C5s against the AWD. Most AWD cars are heavier so they can run more HP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowwrx Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 ....410 hp would make me even with the Vettes in TTS. If they can have it, why not me? Corvettes cannot run 410 HP in TTA or TTS - I wish they could - but they cannot. The limit of 295 R-compound tires in a TTA ZO6 really limits the power you can put down through the corners - especially with a few heat cycles in them. That tire limit really penalizes the C5s against the AWD. Most AWD cars are heavier so they can run more HP. The dyno for AWD needs to be standardized, the dyno that I was dynoing my car at before One Lap said that in full race trim it made 470whp, that was a dynapak, on a dynojet it made just barely 400whp. If I took it to a certain mustang or dynodynamics that I know I could get a chart that is below 350whp. Its really not that hard to find a awd dynojet. Its not fair to rwd guys if I go dyno on a mustang, I know for a fact that my car making 350whp on that mustang will pull a viper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.