How about enduro for the Nationals?

[richard migliori]

Some one mentioned NASA putting on an endurance for the Nats. Great idea and I think should be taken seriously! One suggestion running it proir to the start of the national event, like Thursday. Another great idea. I think it also fattens the bottom line. Another great idea! I'm thinking of all the guys and gals sitting at home with racecars that don't have a chance in their respective classes for one reason or another, but teamed up with another driver, a crew, and alot of time to make things happen, well it can be very exciting! Basically, I am lobbying to make it a regular event at the next National championships. I think it is a great idea and will even bring new comers to the endurance series! Those of you that have not attemped an endurance race are really missing out on alot of fun and excitement. This would give west coasters a chance to compete with people from the east and visa-versa. Please, NASA, run the numbers and give it some thought.

 

"sitting home parked in September"

[brian-groth]

Some one mentioned NASA putting on an endurance for the Nats. Great idea and I think should be taken seriously! One suggestion running it proir to the start of the national event, like Thursday. Another great idea. I think it also fattens the bottom line. Another great idea! I'm thinking of all the guys and gals sitting at home with racecars that don't have a chance in their respective classes for one reason or another, but teamed up with another driver, a crew, and alot of time to make things happen, well it can be very exciting! Basically, I am lobbying to make it a regular event at the next National championships. I think it is a great idea and will even bring new comers to the endurance series! Those of you that have not attemped an endurance race are really missing out on alot of fun and excitement. This would give west coasters a chance to compete with people from the east and visa-versa. Please, NASA, run the numbers and give it some thought.

 

"sitting home parked in September"

 

 

I am also curious if there is any chance of having a enduro at the 2010 nationals?

 

Brian

[robbodleimages]

May I suggest?

 

It might be better to run a NASA National Championship Three Hour Enduro seperate from that NASA Nationals.

 

If you run it at the Nationals, then its an extra event for cars that survive the sprint races at the Nationals and is not a lot more than bonus track time.

 

On the other hand I think there is a real market for a one race championship in the 3 hour endurance format. If we are going to have a championship enduro, I think it should be the featured race of the meet rather than a bonus race.

 

My thought would be to have the N(ational)C(hampionship)E(nduro) at a different track in a different part of the country than the Nationals. That way those that can't afford the big cross country haul have a Championship race closer to home.

 

For instance. The Nationals are at Miller next season. Convince Chris Cobetto to field the NCE at his October VIR event. When the Nationals move back east, find a western track to run the NCE.

 

One more offering. Rather than have the NCE in Sept/October, consider having it at the beginning of the season. Perhaps run the race in March at Road Atlanta as a season opener for anyone native to a too cold to race yet region.

[kbrew8991]

or just call the 25hr the National Championship Enduro event... Does anyone run a bigger or badder enduro?

[robbodleimages]

There are two problems with the direction.

 

1. its a west coast event and doesnt move east.

 

2. the 25 hour format eliminates 90% of the enduro racers that desire a national championship enduro event. Its too expensive and requires too large of an organEYEzation to participate.

 

A 3 hour race can be run competitively with three of four guys and one set of tires.

 

Its two different things. The 25 hour is a success and a crown jewel on its own. A national championship 3 hour race is a completely different deal.

 

I would never come close to running a 12 or 24 hour race. Can't afford it. I run 3 hour races regularly.

[kbrew8991]

3hr is barely long enough to be called an enduro period. It is very easy to do that with one driver and one stop. I'd be tempted to point and laugh at any enduro trying to call itself the National Championship Enduro that was shorter than the 6-8hr range honestly...

[robbodleimages]

Alright Ken,

 

You win. Then the answer is no. There is no need for an enduro to be added to the Nationals. Not nearly enough of those guys are going to race a 6 hour race after the sprint races and the 25 hours is already established.

 

Now that you mention it, since the SE Endurance championship only has one race over 3 hours, let me call Jim now and cancel it for next season. Thanx for waking me up, Ken

[kbrew8991]

no reason to get all butthurt, your guys enduro series is pretty nice... wish TX would do more than one a year quite frankly.

 

But to call a simple 3hr race the end-all-be-all-National Championship is kinda silly to me. You might not even need to stop if you had a well prepared ES or ESR car... Taking away alot of the strategy and preparation that makes or breaks you in an endurance but calling it THE championship just doesn't make sense to me. Maybe I'm just weird.

[robbodleimages]

There is a reason why the professional racers dont race more than 3 hours whenever they can avoid it. Its too expensive. If its too expensive for them, it certainly is for us.

 

I am not butthurt. I am annoyed. I hear this "its not a real enduro" stuff all the time.

 

Preparation=$$$. Koni Challenge ran one 4 hour race this season. They cut it down from 6 hours to 4 because of falling car count and rising expenses.

 

VIR's 13 Hour race last weekend failed to get enough entries to break even. The 12 Hour race at Homestead was dropped. The 24 hour race at Nelson Ledges was cut to 12 hours hoping to get enough entries to keep that event going.

 

Three hours is the standard race lenth for NASCAR, Indycar, Rolex, ALMS, and Koni Challenge. Its a professional race lenth. Its affordable. You don't need a full crew. You don't need a pricey fuel rig. You don't need to completely rebuild your car after the race. You can run it on one set of tires and one set of brakes.

 

Go six hours and all that is out the window.

 

Maybe its just my perspective as a Mustang racer. I'll run my Mustang in a three hour race and I can afford it. 6 hr's-9hr's and I am putting a full season of sprint racing on my race car in a day. I need enough crew to not only change tires, but change brakes.

[kbrew8991]

I guess its a Mustang thing, as I did an 8hr + full TT + full race weekend on 1 set of consumables (tires, brakes, etc) with some left over. I know my car isn't the norm though either.

 

If you could get it to enough length that it was 2 stops for most cars, eh, starts to get enough strategy and pit-work that they influence the outcome. 3hrs is one or no stops (unless mandated, don't get me started there) for just about all cars except Legends and stuff like that.

 

This is a bad year for car counts period, economy has not been kind to many folks out there...

[robbodleimages]

I don't know how many cars that have more than 4 cyl. can run more than 1.5/1.75hr's on a tank of fuel.

 

Do you want to race 4 bangers only or do you want to see E0 and ES cars racing?

 

I would go four hours, but I choose three because its the standard race lenth for the top level of professional racing in North America.

 

BTW...This year is a bad year for car counts, true. Homestead was dropped before last year. Nelson Ledges was cut from 24 to 12 hours after last season failed to find enough entries. VIR's entries have been trending down.

[kbrew8991]

whats the shortest race that ALMS runs that they don't call a "sprint"?

[robbodleimages]

I don't know, Ken. I have sent a proposal to Jim to change the name of our series.

 

Do you like The its not an enduro series or the longer than a sprint race series?

 

Or...Maybe the sprint race for guys with more endurance?

 

I dont know. What would you call a race series based on races of 3 hours, if those are not enduros?

[kbrew8991]

I was talking PURELY in terms of trying to determine what a proper length for a National Championship Enduro might be

[richard migliori]

05,

the 25 doesn't eliminate anyone from a national standpoint. It is a separate race that attracts racers from every other race sanction. That is what is so great about the 25. Where else could you run against famous road racers and million dollar teams? nowhere that I know. It was fun last year to be faster than pro drivers beating them with a home made effort. I hardly think of the enduro being a "bonus" race for sprinters. It is different prep and different stradegies. I am thinking more cars that run mid pack would be much more interested in running an endurance race as they are more likely to have a better chance of a podeum finish. This is my 6th year entering the 25 and as this event evolves, you are finding more cars specific to endurance race and prep and not the season left overs that are still running. When you say that all you do is wear out your car in one race where it equals half a sprint season. Not true! I have had more damage to my car in sprint racing than in enduros. The only thing we wore out is tires, oil, and brakes. With 32 hours of endurance racing this year our biggest expense was the entry fee! I suggested on another thread about featering a 4 hour race and that would equalize the teams that can run 3 hours without a pitstop. Having it at the nat' would bring together east and west and enjoy the same apmosphere as the regular nat's sprint competiters. Why should we be left behind? Here's the bottom line with us: I chose to run enduros because it involves a bunch of my friends that like racing but can't otherwise afford to race themselves and I don't need alot of horsepower to be a contender. Fact: We were the lowest HP car in SCCA SP and out of 30 cars finished 2nd in points. NASA NOR Cal SU, 2nd in points, and WERC 2 overall finishes and a championship. I just don't understand why there is not a graet deal of interest in endurance racing. It really is TOO MUCH FUN compared to a 30 minute sprint race.

RM

check us out at www.pdg4.com and see how much fun you could be having participating in endurance racing!

PS: prepping for the 25 right now and it really depends on your budget that you would set. It is not that expensive.

[robbodleimages]

This is not about the 25. The 25 is an outstanding event. It does not need to be defended.

Its also not for everyone. Its a once a year event for groups that can bring together the resourced to run this kind of race.

 

Its not the kind of race you would run all year long to sharpen your skills for a championship race.

 

My point of view is that the three hour race is a format that most racers could afford to do and would be able to put the resources together to do.

 

The 25 is great. Without question

[richard migliori]

I agree with you that any type of format for a national endurance event would be great! I really wasn't defending the 25, but an earlier post had mentioned the outrageous expense of the race as other endurance races are expensive. They really aren't. And commenting on the wear of equipment running an endurance race vs. a sprint race. I am all for an endurance race. It just seems that there is a myth about endurance racing that must be busted and the mid pack racers get aquainted with the involvement of end. racing and what it has to offer. My point is, " Here. it doesn't take the fastest car to win the race."

 

RM

[richard migliori]

Ken,

I suggested earlier that the race would have to be at least 4 hours. This levels the overall playing field for fuel stops and it is likely that each team will have a drivers change or make it a manditory driver change. I suggest this because my car can run three hours and 8 minutes on a tank of fuel and one driver. This is within the rules and probably the only built car with this format. I will support any length of endurance championship race. Bring it on!

 

RM

[richard migliori]

Ken, I went back and reread, and a 6 hour would be a good time frame for a championship race and have it lead into the night for the final hour and a half. That gives you all the elements of an enduro! Run it on championship week prior to the sprint race finals and that eliminates "bonus" time (whatever that is) and left over sprint prepared cars. Problem solved. Others that say that a 6 hour race consumes a whole season of sprint racees, then all I can say is that they don't know how to plan an endurance race properly. I have run the 25 with my current car 2 years in a row and use less equipment than a sprint season. Comparing hour to hour is not the way to justify endurace vs. sprint racing. The unknown fact of endurance racing is having equipment that is slightly modified to go the distance. Example: 2008, 25 hour, we qualified 5th fastest with a stock 348 ci chevy engine, 10 new Kuhmo tires, and finished 2nd in ES. It wasn't luck, it was planning.

[kbrew8991]

a 6hr National Championship Enduro that was planned to go into the night would get me to travel anywhere in the country for it

[robbodleimages]

I would probably do a 6 hour myself. I caution against the idea of running it at the Nationals though.

 

I doubt drivers at the Nationals to compete for a class championship in the sprint races will want to put 6 hours on the car before those races.

 

I think they should be seperate events.

[richard migliori]

That is the whole idea! The sprint guys do their thing and the middle of the pack guys enter the endurance competition where they have a good chance at winning their respective class. Bouncing from sprint nat to endurance nat is not the intent of the offering. Besides, I doubt that an endurance field will yeild less than 2 per 25 entries from the sprint entries at a national event. Members are more likely to run the event that will give them the best chance at winning their class. Miller nat's is only a14 hour haul for me. I did not go because I knew I could not place in the top 3 in SU. Endurance race? Hey, I'm first in line!, because I know I have a very good chance at winning overall. I am sure noone enters an endurance race to go out and just make circles.

 

RM

[brian-groth]

I would probably do a 6 hour myself. I caution against the idea of running it at the Nationals though.

 

I doubt drivers at the Nationals to compete for a class championship in the sprint races will want to put 6 hours on the car before those races.

 

I think they should be seperate events.

 

I would race a enduro at the nationals, I would not go two different directions(tracks) to race a national enduro and a national sprint race. It only makes sense to have a national championship enduro, at the nationals.

 

Brian

[richard migliori]

Hi Brian,

Thanks for chiming in on this subject. We need more input as to show interest in a national endurance championship race.

 

Thanks, Richard

 

I think there are alot of good ideas and directins getting sorted out.

[wlfpkrcn1]

I think an enduro at the nationals is a good idea. I would want a 4-6 hour race.

As far as wear and tear. I can see how a Mustang in a 3 hour would go through a set of brakes and tires. 3 hour is considered a sprint type enduro. Typically you run the car all out for 3 hours. Increasing the race length will bring fuel, tire and brake management into the fold.

 

Example- We ran the 12 hour at Thunderhill twice (pro7 car). Prior to the events we put on new brakes all the way around. And a brand new set of full tread RA1's. The car ran sprint races all year. We changed the fluids prior to the event. We did not have to change brakes or tires either year. We ran a pace that allowed us to manage those parts to last the length of the race. We could have been more aggressive, gone faster and needed brakes and tires. But we felt it would take to much time. Especially with the only change one tire per stop rule.