How about enduro for the Nationals?

[richard migliori]

Thanks Rob, just throwing things out there to refine what I got. It has to start out on paper and can always get tuned.

 

RM

[kbrew8991]

10-15 min qualifier is plenty imo

 

hopefully that meeting doesn't run the full 30 min

 

10-5 for 7hr race does sound good, however if there is chance of a worker revolt it could be trimmed to 6. I'd let them know ahead of time they'll be VIPs at the party though if they go for the longer option

[richard migliori]

Thanks, Ken.

I always like a good battle, but anything less than a six hour, we have a huge advantage. After six is a different story.

 

Ideas are getting good and comprehensive so I think I can put together something that they would be interested in. I would like to get more ideas to chose from.

 

Thanks, guys,

 

Richard

[robbodleimages]

talk to someone at national and see if they can make it work before you start getting down to the details.

[richard migliori]

Rob,

I don't want to go and stand there empty handed when being asked questions and have no prompt answers and solutions. When I do sponsor packets, I rehearse and know the vender and know what I'm talking about and prepare all the best answers. It makes it a lot easier and you don't leave the impression that you are wasting anyone's time. The will be the first week in January. and want to cover all the basis and get a feel of the general membership and participants of a national race. It is tough to draw a conclusion with about 5 active persons here but what is great is they all have different takes on event.

 

Thanks, Richard

[Ryan F.]

Folks,

 

A few people have directed us to this thread. Please note that the Enduro idea has been discussed amongst National staff but we always are left with more outstanding issues than solid plans. As some have already mentioned, anything can be achieved with enough demand. That being said, nothing is ever as easy as it might seem. The folks that attended the event can easily recognize that we don't have the capacity to fit a 3-6hr enduro into the Wed-Sunday unless it was a night Enduro. WERC regional enduros that run into the night never exceed 30 cars.

 

We are having a national staff meeting in the middle of January and we are open to discuss any ideas you might have. At the end of the day we would need a minimum of 50 cars at $500 to even consider it. I might be wrong, but it seems unrealistic to think 50 Enduro cars will make the trip to Miller for a competition day on a Tuesday or a Monday.

 

Hosting a Endurance National Championship as a standalone event is an entirely different subject. Note that National Champions become one only after competition in a local region and levels of pre qualification. Not all NASA regions host enduros and some only do one per year. As you can imagine, once we do something on a "National" level it implicates many more things and there should be a comprehensive regional strategy to support that National activity.

 

Sorry for the lack of any concrete answer but I wanted to reply to some degree. Feel free to share your ideas with us and direct to Nats Event Director Dave Balingit.

[richard migliori]

Ryan, Thanks for the input here.

Thanks for a more solid direction. Because the nats are some 7 months away and people that participate plan way in advance, so endurance goers would definitely plan to be there on a Tuesday if that what it is. Remember, my thoughts on this is drawing the endurance and stay at home guys out to the event and opening the chance for some to supersize into a sprint event since they are already there. Geographical, Miller is almost in the middle and since it "IS" a national event will draw those that would not think of just going to a regular enduro or race. Comparing WERC and a national event ( car count) is not a comparison at all. WERC events are not National. It is unfortunate that other NASA regions do not hold enduro events as they are lots of fun and competitive. If there was a "BIG" or National enduro stand alone back east, I would not go. When it is tied into a "real national" event with all members, I would go if it was held in Greenland. For a 6 or 7 hour event, I would gladly pay 800.00 at the nationals for the race. My proposal sheet was targeting 800.00 for a 7 hour event. Thanks, Ryan.

 

Richard Migliori

[kbrew8991]

Lights are easy enough to add - gotta add them for my regional enduro anyway as its currently scheduled - and $500 is ok so long as you're alot more towards 6 and alot less towards 3 in my book.

 

Maybe a survey out to prior Nationals participants would yield more feedback than just this small sub-forum.

 

again - I will go just about anywhere in the country anytime to participate in the National Championship enduro, if its part of sprint nationals or not. So long as work and budget don't preclude that of course.

[richard migliori]

Hey Ken, why don't you shoot me an endurance schedule for your region. I have tried all regions and have not got a response from anyone except Bryan, Ryan, and tage who has no endurance series except a 100 minute ( which is not a endurance race....it is bonus track time!)

 

thanks, richard

[robbodleimages]

Just a thought. The 100 minute enduro is an enduro. Its twice the lenth of any sprint race run by NASA. Further, if NASA National wants to require minimum starts in region enduros to qualify for national championship participation the less you demean shorter enduros the better.

 

If its not an enduro, it doesnt count toward qualifying for a national race.

 

Do you want to require that all regional enduros be of at least 3 hours to be used as qualifying starts for a national enduro?

[kbrew8991]

just as a data point - I could go 100min on one fuel load & one driver. I guess we'd have to mandate a pit stop or something?

[robbodleimages]

I believe that is the rule in the nasa enduro rules. 5 gallons must be dumped. A required pitstop.

 

Its a reality, the enduros are marginally popular in an overall sense. They are strong someplaces and not offered in other places. Track time is also at a premium. Most NASA SE weekends are 3 days events. That leaves a day where the only race is an enduro. If they had to squeeze an enduro into a two day event, it would be short if it happened at all.

 

Same is the case with many other regions.

 

I read Ryan's post. He seems pretty clear that National Championship competition requires regional participation to qualify. Saying something is not an enduro only makes it more difficult to get what you want.

 

I understand that the short enduro is not your favorite or your idea of what an enduro should be. It takes all kinds. I know people that think anything under 12 hours is a sprint or anything over 40 minutes endurance. Lets be all inclusive so that we can get what we want.

 

I support a national championship enduro. I want to get to the first one. If its two hours or 6 hours. It won't effect me. I will support it over 6 hours, but I can't afford to participate in that lenth of race.

 

I am going take what we can get and go from there. I wish there was more support for that.

[richard migliori]

Thanks, Rob.

You brought out a good point about a personal overall cost to the entrant. If one could afford a 3 hour but couldn't afford a 6. Keeping the affordability in perspective to include those "first timers" as part of the roster. Regional qualifying does not make to much sense right now as you said, most regions don't market enduros. In the case of a 100 minute enduro with a mandatory pit stop would not interest me. 1: I would not pull down the block for it let alone 800 miles for a national event that short. 2: cost vs. reward. The cost it takes to prepare and load the tow vehicle and the fun factor does not balance. Another big step here as I see it: Make it affordable and make it long enough to experience an enduro in the true sense.

 

RM

[kbrew8991]

re: qualifying - why would this differ from the usual Nationals process. You don't have to run the exact same class that you run in Nationals to qualify for the event. Regions that don't run enduros could have people qualify for the event in sprints and time trials as normal.

[robbodleimages]

I think its as different as those qualifyed to run TT at nationals are not qualified to race.

 

Again, I am reading what Ryan wrote. It doesnt seem to me that he is suggesting that 5 AI races qualifies you to race the enduro.

[kbrew8991]

correct - you can't run 5 TT events and run a race group (licensing & experience issues there). You could run 5 events in Spec Miata and race SpecE30 at Nationals however.

 

Maybe Ryan can clarify if they would want the enduro to be treated separately - ie would need X number of endurance races or Y number of hours to qualify. There are some differences with the ruleset (namely involving pit-stops) that might necessitate qualifying for the enduro side of nationals separately from the race and time trials side after all.

[robbodleimages]

My take is that NASA would not want professional teams like those that frequent the 25 to jump in for a one off enduro championship race and cherry pick that title. That is why NASA requires those minimum starts at the regional level.

 

With enduro racing I would think the threat of the professionals doing that is greater than with the sprints because they can make money on it.

 

Its bad enough to have to race Dean Martin in AI at the nationals, but at least he has built an AI car and run the required races to qualify. Its another thing to have three or four GS teams show up and three or four ST teams show up for a one off race.

[richard migliori]

OK. I see now what you guys are thinking when talking about a qualifier prior to the event. X # of sprints allows you to register for the national enduro. Where that keeps the "pro" teams at bay (national is an amateur race and they really son't belong at this level. As a driver yes, bring them on, but to bring a million dollar team out doesn't do anybody any good. Good idea

 

RM

[robbodleimages]

my point is that national is not going to allow sprint races to qualify as enduros for an enduro championship race. to qualify teams/drivers will have to compete in a minimum number of NASA regional enduros. what I am also saying is that its counter productive to continue to beat down shorter enduros than is your taste in enduro racing as not enduros as its just those races that will be required to get our field qualified to enter.

 

if the pro teams enter the minimum races, you cant stop them. just as dean martin could bring his koni challenge championship skills to the AI championship race at Miller this past September. He ran the required minimum events.

[richard migliori]

I am not beating down small enduros. I'm taking what previous people have said. IMO a 100 minute race is not an enduro. If other regions think it is, and that is what the regional membership ask for then it is what it is. I'm just saying for myself that I would not go across the street for a 100 minute enduro. It doesn't float my boat. To drive from Nor Cal to Texas for an 8 hour enduro? I'm packing my bags right now! Some one mentioned that there are not enough enduros to use as a qualifier for a national event. Then it seems, the next best thing would be a sprint, but what would a season qualifyer prove or stand for anyway? You are qualifying at the race for position. The only time I had to qualify according to a preset circumstance was an invitational to be in a show opener for the World of Outlaws race. They only took the top 10 season points from 2 organizations to race a main event opener. The other pre-req could be that you would have to be a member in good standing for 2010, meaning good driving skills and no demerits. Racers that have the money and have a clean competition record should be encouraged to enlist. A prev suggestion was a least 5 sprint races. sounds good to me, except I am not running sprints this year.

Thanks again for all your thought and suggestions,

 

Richard

[richard migliori]

Rob are you afraid of "pro" drivers coming in and racing? Did you know they put their trousers on one leg at a time just like you? They aren't any different. I once thought the same when the first DP showed up at the 25. WE knew he was going to win because he had all the "pro Drivers", all the best equipment. Bottom line: they won the race, but I left a better competitor and it raised the level in which I compete now. It is not a bad thing to have them compete. It made me work harder and I look forward every time to see what "pro drivers" I can out race and kick butt. That's a part of the fun. Chris Durbin said, " If they beat us, well they are supposed to. If we beat them, we are rock stars!" When looking over the driver entrants at the 2009, 25. This year, we over prepared and beat ourselves.

 

RM

[Weed Wacker]

Having to run a certain number of regional enduro's would be the way to go for the reasons mentioned above IMO. Using the example above of Dean Martin. He runs a pro series outside of NASA, but also runs a decent amount of NASA races as well. This implies he has an interest in the class he runs within NASA, instead of just wanting to show up to our national event to take a trophy from people supporting NASA all season because he can. While he is a "pro racer," he is also a "NASA racer" and shows his support by attending regional events. Also, like said earlier this forces teams to run some regional NASA enduro's, supporting that program. Getting "asses in seats" so to speak. Which does nothing but good if you ask me (which nobody did).

[robbodleimages]

Having to run a certain number of regional enduro's would be the way to go for the reasons mentioned above IMO. Using the example above of Dean Martin. He runs a pro series outside of NASA, but also runs a decent amount of NASA races as well. This implies he has an interest in the class he runs within NASA, instead of just wanting to show up to our national event to take a trophy from people supporting NASA all season because he can. While he is a "pro racer," he is also a "NASA racer" and shows his support by attending regional events. Also, like said earlier this forces teams to run some regional NASA enduro's, supporting that program. Getting "asses in seats" so to speak. Which does nothing but good if you ask me (which nobody did).

 

Well said

[richard migliori]

He is definitely an asset to both NASA and wherever else he may race. I agree with that also. Then if you had a qualifier and there is no enduro in your region, what will or could be the alternative? Someone mentioned a few sprints, then looking at it economically, I couldn't afford to dump1.5k for a weekend of racing to finish last in SU or last in STR1. Do cars that enter the daytona 24 have qualifiers or do they pay the price and race?

 

I think we have had enough discussion and now it is time to go out and start talking to the members and get a count of drivers interested in the event.

 

RM

[robbodleimages]

The Daytona(Rolex) 24 and a NASA National championship enduro are apples and oranges.

 

The Rolex is much like the Thunderhill race. Professional teams out the but run Thunderhill.

There are no issues with that. Its a one off.

 

The NASA Nationals are NOT a one off. Like the SCCA Runoffs, its a one race for the championship, but it comes with a requirement of particiption to qualify.