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stevepoe

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It was in the wednesday meeting as I remember it the same as Dave A.... that rear facing video from your car and Corey's car should be interesting!!!

 

also, here is the shortened version of my in car.... 600 meg so right click and save as.

 

http://www.aggie97.com/nats09long.mpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

I don't know that many of you guys and I have absolutely no axes to grind, but after watching the video, it's clear the guy in the fox mustang took off after the pace car departed. I see it all of the time down here. Isn't that what a PACE car is for? It sets the PACE, no? Otherwise, we should stick to standing starts.

 

Everyone behind is searching for the right gear, then changing due to a faster pace, then stomping on the brakes or whatever while the "formation" is completely screwed and the accordion is in full swing, and the underpaid starter waves the green regardless.

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Wow looks like I missed out on alot of excitement.

 

It's not my battle but racing is racing and when it is over it's all a moot point anyway.

 

You win some and lose some and last years pass under yellow for 80% was a joyful issue for sure but it happens and many of us paid a big price. Consistent rules with time penalty assessments for things can always clear this stuff up in the future. Officials try there best and have a brutal job.

 

Seperately, I do agree with Pat's idea of the GPS. My traqmate is pretty accurate vs. the dyno when you use a weather adjustment like the dyno does (within about 15rwhp or so). Ram air, aero, and gearing can play a factor but it get's within a range that you can then randomly choose anyone in the field for dyno runs if they are close. We did this in TT at nationals and it was a good rule of thumb check.

 

Congrats to Ross and the rest of the podium in American Iron and AIX!!

 

Fantastic job!!

 

Next year I will be there to try and bring it back to the East Coast.

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Seperately, I do agree with Pat's idea of the GPS.

 

GPS was used at this event on random cars. I know it was on mine for at least one session... I believe it went on Dean's car and Pat's car as well.

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All this talk about start shenanigans brings to mind the 2005 BRIC group 6 race at Road America. That 20 seconds of hell should be required driver meeting viewing before any big race.

 

Congrats to everyone who made it to the show. There were a lot of us sitting out this year, but all the good reports from Miller should help to get more of us fence-sitters out there next year.

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All this talk about start shenanigans brings to mind the 2005 BRIC group 6 race at Road America. That 20 seconds of hell should be required driver meeting viewing before any big race.

 

Congrats to everyone who made it to the show. There were a lot of us sitting out this year, but all the good reports from Miller should help to get more of us fence-sitters out there next year.

 

Bring Brakes!

 

sigpic2.jpg

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Adam Ginsberg
Doing tech for throttle opening made no sense since there's no restriction on it.

 

Knowing Todd and Al, they were verifying the throttle opened all the way without some sort of throttle stop to provide false dyno numbers.

 

Nice picture, Matt.

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Congrats to all who made it to the NASA American Iron Championships!

 

Sheesh...I just got home this afternoon from the trek back and didn't realize there was a mini-poop storm a-brewin'!

 

I plan to write up my highlights of the entire event, but need to catch up on sleep first. Look for them later in the week.

 

Regarding some of the comments posted, here's my take:

1) First & foremost, I'm glad Dean Martin is OK. He took a hard hit into the barrier. Glad to see all of the safety rules & equipment working!

2) Overall I thought the races were a huge improvement over prior years for the amount of green flag racing, amount of body contact and overall T&S drama. We ALL worked hard to achieve that and kudos to you all!

3) I was clear in the driver meetings that since we wouldn't be doing standing starts, I wanted to assure that starting speeds were slow.

4) Pole position determines speed, as Adam pointed out.

5) Pat L. did mention to me that he was going to pick it up a few MPH (I think he mentioned 4-5 MPH) for the race, as the prior races he was in a bad place for RPM range/gear. I took no exception...as pole position determines speed, and we already discussed slow starting speeds.

6) The race start looked to be doing fine from the tower....all cars came around the final turn and were on the front straight. (No accordian effect) However, it appeared Tommy was having trouble keeping pace with Pat (the pole sitter).

7) At green, the inside lane had a quicker pace than the outside lane. Control believed Tommy was having car trouble...and when the field entered T1, it was confirmed (in our eyes) when Car 155 went off.

Regarding the double yellow restart...you guys did a great job. Quickly bunched up the field...single file...prevented the race from ending under a double yellow. I was just as amazed to see the green come out so early. My bad for not ensuring the flagger do a later start once the field got on the straight. I was too busy watching the pack get in line...and control was likely trying to restart the race before the rain arrived and the race finished under yellow.

 

As I mentioned, I'll post my highlights later this week, but let's not make villians out of the fast guys. We spent a lot of time verifying & validating the faster setups on Thur & Friday, so that Sunday's race would be well known & well regulated...We would have done the same to whomever was at the top, especially if there's a 1-2 sec. gap on the field.

 

In the end, I think the championship racing was awesome because there was a buzz in the paddock about what was being checked and what was being done. By Sunday, track familiarization and some very close times were being posted, as it should be.

 

I saw a lot, learned a lot and really enjoyed working with you all. Let me go over my notes from last week and let's start planning next year's Championships!!!

 

-=- Todd Covini

2009 Group B Race Director

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Knowing Todd and Al, they were verifying the throttle opened all the way without some sort of throttle stop to provide false dyno numbers.

 

That's the issue, there's no rule against the throttle not opening all the way and there's no procedure for documenting it to check in impound, so it's moot. Familiarizing yourself with the car isn't bad as an official, but the call should be to throw it on the dyno post-race when there is a dyno available.

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Adam Ginsberg
That's the issue, there's no rule against the throttle not opening all the way and there's no procedure for documenting it to check in impound, so it's moot. Familiarizing yourself with the car isn't bad as an official, but the call should be to throw it on the dyno post-race when there is a dyno available.

 

While there isn't a specific rule about it in the AI book, the dyno procedures are to run the car at WOT to the shift light/redline (or until power drops off). Restrictor plates, timing, throttle stops, etc, are all things officials can verify prior to, and post race.

 

AAMOF, AI only lists a few procedures for documenting a particular item - dynos, track width, and safety gear (like roll bars). As such, it's hardly a moot point - just because there isn't an official "procedure" to check it doesn't mean it can't, or shouldn't be, checked. If a competitor is using a throttle stop to control numbers on the dyno, then "throwing them on the dyno post race" will provide inaccurate numbers.

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any pictures or videos from the nationals race

 

fixed my link and put it on vimeo...

 

cut out the middle 1/3 as it was just nursing the brakes and clicking laps till the DY.
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It was a pretty screwed up start. Sorry guys for getting in your way turn one and three. Car would not turn left. Lower control arm bolt was loose. I had something for you guys. Fear the chicken 2010

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I don't have a dog in this fight, but here's my impression after watching White's video. I don't know any of these cars/drivers. It certainly didn't look like a controlled field acceleration from 35-50MPH.

 

Pole Car - Accelerated hard just as the pace car pulled off (still in the turn), then backed it down waiting for the green. This created the accordian effect through the field, forcing some to peddle and then brake and others to just peddle like crazy. However, I don't know what the rest of the field looked like, but everyone should have been paired up tight long before that final turn. Regardless of the CCR/Meeting etc. the acceleration to "speed" prior to the start seemed aggressive and clearly not conducive to a tight group green.

 

Outside Front Row #2 Position - Failed to catch up. Even as the pole sitter backed down he never got up along side and it's pretty clear there was still no green. The car clearly lifted and waited for the start. This left the entire right row a couple car lengths behind. Also, this car seemed to clearly have the line into T1, but the mechanical caused tons of problems for anyone not on the inside.

 

#3 Position - Where was he? The outside front row had an opportunity to catch up, although chose to hang back a little, and the #4 position was lifting and waiting for the green beghind #2, but where was the #3 car? Seems to me he had an opportunity to catch up or slingshot past if he was peddling hard to catch the pole sitter.

 

Great to watch, but understandably frustrating for so many. Glad everyone made it through the first couple of turns unscathed.

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#3 Position - Where was he? The outside front row had an opportunity to catch up, although chose to hang back a little, and the #4 position was lifting and waiting for the green beghind #2, but where was the #3 car? Seems to me he had an opportunity to catch up or slingshot past if he was peddling hard to catch the pole sitter.

 

 

Ross was pretty much on my door as I boxed him in behind Pat when he went defensive for the tight line into T1... The yellow car that went by to my right must have been flying and amazing he didn't center punch me when I bailed to miss Tommy.

 

Overall, I would say it was a good start, but had the serious potential to be a TON of carnage in T1 for such a long race.

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Man, what a great week. Awesome pictures Dave, thanks. A special hanks to all of the drivers and crews for their help and patience during all of the post race tech.

 

TJ, next time you're at Nationals feel free to volunteer your time at the tech shed. In the mean time, give the guys that were there the benefit of the doubt that there just might have been a method to their madness. Myself, I can comfortably say the tech was a good balance between thoroughness and pain-in-the-ass-ness. In the end we all want an even playing field, right? Hopefully you guys as drivers came away with a level of comfort that this was the case. From my perspective I think the cars were all in line with what the rules allow.

 

I would agree that the start was not as clean as we would've liked. From the tower it looked fairly good through the field, the most obvious issue was Pat's lead when the flag dropped. As things turned out, there was no need to revisit post race. Unfortunately we dont have the resources to review immediately and have thousands of a second to tell the flagger to drop the green or hold.

 

My vote is and always will be standing starts.

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Man, what a great week. Awesome pictures Dave, thanks. A special hanks to all of the drivers and crews for their help and patience during all of the post race tech.

 

TJ, next time you're at Nationals feel free to volunteer your time at the tech shed. In the mean time, give the guys that were there the benefit of the doubt that there just might have been a method to their madness. Myself, I can comfortably say the tech was a good balance between thoroughness and pain-in-the-ass-ness. In the end we all want an even playing field, right? Hopefully you guys as drivers came away with a level of comfort that this was the case. From my perspective I think the cars were all in line with what the rules allow.

 

I would agree that the start was not as clean as we would've liked. From the tower it looked fairly good through the field, the most obvious issue was Pat's lead when the flag dropped. As things turned out, there was no need to revisit post race. Unfortunately we dont have the resources to review immediately and have thousands of a second to tell the flagger to drop the green or hold.

 

My vote is and always will be standing starts.

 

Standing starts in 2010! Vote NOW!

 

Al, tech as a whole was light years beyond what it was in 2008. I would almost say it was the difference between a dirt track race and a Rolex Race. Great job overall, but as they say, "you can't please everyone...."....

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TJ, next time you're at Nationals feel free to volunteer your time at the tech shed. In the mean time, give the guys that were there the benefit of the doubt that there just might have been a method to their madness. Myself, I can comfortably say the tech was a good balance between thoroughness and pain-in-the-ass-ness. In the end we all want an even playing field, right? Hopefully you guys as drivers came away with a level of comfort that this was the case. From my perspective I think the cars were all in line with what the rules allow.

 

My vote is and always will be standing starts.

 

My apology to you, Todd, and Adam for not thanking you first before starting to vent. Thanks for all your hard work this weekend, seriously.

 

However, I'm a big fan of the "Put so many cars on the dyno during the course of the weekend that it's on fire after post-race on Sunday" philosophy. At that point, paper talks and BS walks. I'll try to stop crapping on this thread now.

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TJ no offense taken, its all good. We tried to balance the desire to send everyone to the rollers with the fact that we're but one class (ie, get in line) and each spin costs NASA (and therefore eventually you) money. We looked at lap times and gains on track to see who was a good candidate and sent one or two cars every qual/race session. We also had GPS data for one other car every session, which was then compared to a reference point.

 

PS...I tried to send Griswold to the dyno, just to satisfy my curiosity. You should've seen the confused look on his face while he decided if I was serious.

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I was surprised more guys didn't voluntarily do a dyno pull. Being at a different elevation than most places I was surprised. I did a dyno pull on Thursday just to make sure I was within the specs. Rumors were flying that the dyno was off as Dean pulled 20 hp over. The dyno was within 1 HP of what I pulled here. I was happy with the results.

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Anyone who was there or watched video from the start of Sundays race and says it looked okay has got to be kidding. The entire rear of the field completely flies past the middle 2 rows by turn 1. And yes thats called the accordian effect. The front row, or in this case the pole sitter, takes off. Everyone reacts. The 2nd and 3rd rows catch up and have to check up. Everyone from 4 back stays to the floor and has a ton of speed, and an incredible jump. Please don't insult our intelligence and say that didn't happen. All involved have been racing enough to know what happened. And just for the record the term is "jumping the start"

 

What I would like to know is what is going to change so this doesn't happen again? Black flag the offenders? Waive off the start? Please don't say that it will be discussed in pre race meetings, because that doesn't seem to work. Not everyone attends and not everyone follows direction. There needs to be consequenses.

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While there isn't a specific rule about it in the AI book, the dyno procedures are to run the car at WOT to the shift light/redline (or until power drops off). Restrictor plates, timing, throttle stops, etc, are all things officials can verify prior to, and post race.

 

If a competitor is using a throttle stop to control numbers on the dyno, then "throwing them on the dyno post race" will provide inaccurate numbers.

Wow, just wait until somebody shows up with electronic throttle control.

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Kidding aside, Dave, I can tell you're pretty upset about the start.

Feel free to call my cell if you want to discuss further and perhaps I can offer more explaination as to what happened, and hear you out as to how we might improve.

 

I will say that there were consequences for missing a driver meeting. Racers were repositioned to the back of the field after missing a meeting. There are typically many, many things that go on behind the scenes that may not be transparent....and all everything needs to be considered.

 

Call me after hours if you want to discuss....

 

Todd Covini

Group B Race Director

713-252-3465 cell

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