Ban race cars from TT!

[drivinhardz06]

Back to the original point, a cage has no impact on competition performance.

 

other than adding weight, and raising the cg

[L98Terror]

Just as a counter point I was going just as fast within a second in my street car as I am in my race car, actually my speeds at the end of the straight were about 6 MPH high in my stock C5Z so maybe I'm a little crazt but I was more on the edge without all the saftey equipment. BTW that is why I made the change.

 

BTW how often is there Car 2 Car contact in TT and how often is a race car involved? If you tell me 10 times in the last year and more than 1/2 were race cars you might have a point but I don't recall any car 2 car contact this year at all.

 

In TT the only danger should be to ones self if you are putting others at risk whether in a race car or not you are probably doing it wrong.

[Tirewarmer]

Back to the original point, a cage has no positive impact on competition performance.

 

other than adding weight, and raising the cg

 

Fixed so y'all can read what I meant.

[mrc24x]

Sounds like you have a personnel problem, not an equipment problem.

 

I want to see more caged cars on track, because doing this without a cage is on the wrong side of the crazy/brave line.

 

I think your icon says it all about your 'self image.' The cage makes you feel invincible, doesn't it? Exactly my point.

 

PS- I think you meant "personal" note "personnel". I can't believe everyone is taking this so personal. Its just a suggested rule change. Why aren't racers satisfied with 'racing.' If your car has a cage, go race. Enjoy!

 

It's not that simple. I started in TT and I actually enjoy it as much as racing. So that's where I'll be at most events. Hopefully pulling double duty in PTA if we have enough entries.

 

I don't get your concern about race cars. The only ones that you see on track are Sawtelle, Smith and me. (nobody sees Danny... ) I can't speak for them but I've been TT'ing for 4 years and I've NEVER had 4 off in any session or ever been close to touching someone. It may look like some of us are "over the top" but that's just car control IMO.

[TurboShortBus]

So, if the OP proposes to "ban race cars from TT," then what does he propose to tell the TT drivers who currently drive these vehicles in TT?

 

7s Only Mazda GT Spec RX7

Active Power GTR MKI, GTR 2D, GTR 70, M6 GTR

Allison Legacy

Baby Grand

Brunton Stalker

Caterham & Lotus 7

Dodge Viper Competition Coupe

Ferrari 348, 355, 360, and 430 Challenge

Factory Five Challenge, GTM, Roadster, Type 65 Coupe

Legends

Lotus 2-Eleven

Panoz GTRA, GTWC, GTS

Porsche 997 & 996 GT3 Cup

Pro Challenge Road Race Spec Car

Radicals

Retired race cars (NASCAR, ASA, GT, World Challenge, etc.)

Rossion Q1

RSR

Spec Racer Ford

Thunder Roadster

Wests

etc., etc., etc.

 

Hell, if I told all of our drivers with former or current Spec Miata race cars to stay home from TT, we wouldn't have anybody in TTE.

 

In my whopping 1 year of running TT down here, I can't say that having race cars on track with street cars has ever caused any kind of problem. IMO, it's dependent on the drivers, not the equipment, and we're fortunate to have a very considerate group of drivers down here.

 

Bring 'em all out, I say:

http://www.youtube.com/user/MarkMc26#p/u/2/91i3D4FVpK8

 

Mark

[Sterling Doc]

I think we all get that over agressive driving can be an issue, and that TT should not be considered racing. I think it is not unreasonable to specifically warn race drivers that they will be watched closely. Those who are not following this should be warned/protested/removed - whatever it takes. The times that I have run in TT (to take special guests as passengers, tune new parts on the car, etc.), I have been specifically warned not to treat this as a race group, and have been conscious of that.

 

I think we all also take issue with limiting safety equipment - that is not the way to accomplish what you want, and has serious unintended consequences. I put my car on it's roof (over it's nose ) this last year, on a pretty open track, during qualifying. I wasn't racing anyone, just trying to set a fast time qualifying in one of the few windows of dry(er) conditions - essentially what we all do in TT. I made a mistake, in a bad spot, and things went bad very quickly. I walked away without a scratch, or sore muscle, and a huge appreciation for good safety equipment. Car was done, cage slightly bent. Without a cage, my car would have looked like that Mustang, or worse, and I wouldn't be here to give you a hard time about this .

 

Make your own decisions about what you want to run safety wise (at your own peril), but you cannot legislate less safety equipment.

 

I have very strong opinions on safety equipment use, both from doctor, and racer perspective, but this is not the place to lecture on that.

[MSP608]

I think we all get that over agressive driving can be an issue, and that TT should not be considered racing. I think it is not unreasonable to specifically warn race drivers that they will be watched closely. Those who are not following this should be warned/protested/removed - whatever it takes. The times that I have run in TT (to take special guests as passengers, tune new parts on the car, etc.), I have been specifically warned not to treat this as a race group, and have been conscious of that.

 

I think we all also take issue with limiting safety equipment - that is not the way to accomplish what you want, and has serious unintended consequences. I put my car on it's roof (over it's nose ) this last year, on a pretty open track, during qualifying. I wasn't racing anyone, just trying to set a fast time qualifying in one of the few windows of dry(er) conditions - essentially what we all do in TT. I made a mistake, in a bad spot, and things went bad very quickly. I walked away without a scratch, or sore muscle, and a huge appreciation for good safety equipment. Car was done, cage slightly bent. Without a cage, my car would have looked like that Mustang, or worse, and I wouldn't be here to give you a hard time about this .

 

Make your own decisions about what you want to run safety wise (at your own peril), but you cannot legislate less safety equipment.

 

I have very strong opinions on safety equipment use, both from doctor, and racer perspective, but this is not the place to lecture on that.

 

This worries me. Aren't passengers explicitly not allowed in TT groups?

 

nevermind, found this:

 

Passengers are not permitted. Any driver taking a passenger will be D/Q’d for that session and

the following session (Note: Passengers are permitted in regional event competition sessions.)

[jason]

This worries me. Aren't passengers explicitly not allowed in TT groups?

Different regions have different rules.

[kbrew8991]

thats another change I'd like to see made... ugh

 

timed sessions = no passengers

[boomn29]

First of all - I disagree very much with the OP.

 

Another point that we're missing here is that for many of us, TT is a stepping block from the HPDE world into the Racers world. We can't throw people directly into racing w/o the benefit of at least some open passing experience.

For first-time racers I know we have comp school, but I've watched some guys run 2-wide around the track in comp school and look pretty uneasy. When, in reality, our MW/GL division will sometimes do some slower speed 2-wide practice laps in HPD3 to get drivers ready for the jump to TT. It all helps!

 

TT has open passing. In the MW/GL division, I think we do a very good job of respecting this. There are instances of 2-wide through corners, but I have no problem with that. Heck, by Sunday afternoon, I'd wager to say 90% of the passes are instigated with point-by's being everyone grids by time and understands we all need open track.

[Sterling Doc]

Sorry, I should have specified that TT was running with HPDE 4, and special permission was granted by the regional director to do all this (special event). I did my best to stay out of the way of those running hot laps.

 

The HPDE 3 director was understandably concered with a race car in his group.

 

Sorry for the digression, back on topic...

[FlyingDog]

Why aren't racers satisfied with 'racing.' If your car has a cage, go race. Enjoy!

I bought my fully caged 1 seat race car when I was in HPDE3. Should they be banned from HPDE? Should people with caged race cars in HPDE not be able to move up to TT before racing? Should 2 people not be able to share a car just because 1 is a racer and needs a fully prepped/caged race car while the other is in HPDE or TT? Answering YES to any of those questions is asinine. Because you get your panties in a bunch about people being more brave in a caged car you want other people to potentially spend more money to be less safe. Maybe banning harnesses, helmets, fire suits, fire extinguishers, and and other safety gear would make people slow down and be more cautious...

[Greg G.]

Personally, I think a lot more of the HPDE guys would do TT if it weren't for fear of getting on the track with someone like this (I use an example out of

my region, so there is nothing personal to these guys)...

 

None of my friends with high end sports cars want to risk a collision. Would guys like Team Tapped drive like that if they didn't have a cage and all the safety equip? Maybe, I don't know, but I doubt it if they had an ounce of sense in their brains. I'm not judging them, I just think they should stay are more well suited to the race group.

 

Am I afraid of them? Yes. Has it kept me off the track? No. I do more events than anyone in my region. Can I afford a dedicated track car? Yes. I am just making an observation that I think is for the 'good of the sport.' Besides, everyone with a dedicated race car has a street car in the garage they can pull out if they want to run TT, right?

 

This has nothing to do with competition. I am in the region with Danny. Danny will still win Nats and he will just do it in a Z06 without a cage. The overly aggressive drivers will get their kicks (and have their shunts) in the races, (where Danny will beat them in a caged car).

 

PS-I apologize to Team Tapped for making an example of them. Please don't take it personal. I am sure you are great guys, and there was no dive bombing, blocking or other unsportsmanlike conduct in that video, just awesome driving (if a little over the top if you were in a street car sans cage!).

 

I watched Brian's video, and I must say that he did EXACTLY what I and NASA would expect of a top level TT driver. He found open track, drove the piss out of the car, hit just about every apex perfectly, and used the entire track on turn exit. He kept the car under his control, and kept the tires on the track surface. There is nothing about his driving that I find to be contradictory to our goals in NASA TT. There is nothing that I find frightening about his driving style, and I would have no problem getting on track with him whether I was in MY fully cage dual purpose TT and race car, or driving someone's stock street car (which I also do at times). So, I think that this video is not a good example of what you might be trying to convey. If you take a look at the top level drivers in NASA TT over the years, I think that you will find that when we have driven uncaged street cars, we drive just as hard and fast as when in fully caged race cars. The addition of more safety equipment increases our personal safety in the event of a problem, with a mechanical failure being the biggest risk to those with great car control. It does not increase the risk of those beside us, however.

 

On the other hand, I agree that in the past, some of the worst offenders in regard to over-aggressive and uncooperative driving in TT sessions have been racers. But, these are not the racers that were brought up through our HPDE system, through TT, and into racing. These are the guys that didn't have the benefit of learning from NASA how to behave on track in a non-race situation. Fortunately, there are not too many of them out there that decide to join a TT session. Our TT and HPDE rules have provisions to deal with these drivers immediately once they are recognized. Our TT Directors, HPDE4 Directors, and Regional Directors have the authority to remove them immediately if they are creating a hazard. Our TT Rules require that racers compete in five regional TT events during the year before they are eligible to compete at the National Championships. This gives NASA the opportunity to either re-calibrate these drivers, or remove them from TT so we don't have problems at the Championships. As well, this is one of the reasons that the NASA TT model highly recommends download sessions after each competition session. Immediate feedback to a potential "problem" driver by his peers is essential for good communication, and to increase cooperation on track to the expected level. If someone isn't told that they are bordering on being uncooperative or over-aggressive, then you shouldn't expect them to do anything different in the following sessions.

 

The bottom line is that if you are having problems with a specific over-aggressive driver, whether he is a racer in a race car, a racer is a street car, or a TT driver in whatever car, you are at fault for not bringing that situation up in a download meeting, or at the very least, bringing the problem to your TT Director BEFORE the download meeting. If you feel that your TT Director is not doing enough to keep an over-aggressive driver under control, then you should speak with your Regional Director directly so the problem driver can be dealt with (or, your perception of the driver as a problem can be dealt with). As far as cages go, NASA recommends that HPDE and TT drivers put as much CCR legal safety equipment into their cars as they feel comfortable with. This is an individual personal choice that a driver needs to make based on the situation. I have felt comfortable driving cars that were prepped for racing and street cars that had some brake pads and tires thrown on them--My choice. When I am going to drive faster than 125 mph, I generally prefer to have more personal protection, but if I'm in a brand new street car that was built to go 180+ mph top speed, and I'm on a track with a top speed of 140 mph in that car, less protection seems adequate. If I'm in an older car that seems to break down a lot, I may want full protection at 100mph. Regardless, the biggest risk that I take in a car is still getting out in street/freeway traffic, especially on a weekend night.

[ViperRacer]

Boxer12,

 

First off i envy you driving your ACR while mine sits. Now your ACR has what very high HP numbers & great Tourqe at the rear wheels. I have seen some of your posts on the Viper board and the times that SRT posted are way faster than my Comp Coupe, and the more track time you get the faster you will be. Your HP is greater than my CC, your Aero Package is on Par with the CC.

 

Why would i want to do TT's ? Test, its better than HPDE#, I can pass anywhere at any time....But you have to be smart about it & pick your spots. Why should i be banned because i have a Viper with a Cage ? There are alot of NASA members that have race cars that choose not to race W2W because of a possible carnige factor. I have been to those Viper Days Races & i have seen many CC's wrecked badly, mine is still a Virgin.

 

Now don't get me wrong i love racing, but when i do TT's in a sense i am racing, only difference is that i am going against a clock instead of trying to chase someone down. Am i going to try to impove my times each lap....Yes..If i have to test the bounds of Reality i will just to see how far i can push the car & myself....You know the PUCKER FACTOR, nothing better.

 

Please reconsider your request to ban race cars...

[TLeroux]

>Personally, I think a lot more of the HPDE guys would do TT if it weren't for fear of getting on the track with someone >like this (I use an example out of my region, so there is nothing personal to these guys)...

>

>

>None of my friends with high end sports cars want to risk a collision. Would guys like Team Tapped drive like that if >they didn't have a cage and all the safety equip? Maybe, I don't know, but I doubt it if they had an ounce of sense in >their brains. I'm not judging them, I just think they should stay are more well suited to the race group.

>

>Am I afraid of them? Yes. Has it kept me off the track? No. I do more events than anyone in my region. Can I afford a >dedicated track car? Yes. I am just making an observation that I think is for the 'good of the sport.' Besides, everyone >with a dedicated race car has a street car in the garage they can pull out if they want to run TT, right?

 

As one of those HPDE guys going into TT, Team Tapped doesn't discourage me at all from driving in TT. My only holdup has been self imposed, I didn't want to compete for time without upgrading my safety equipment. I'm already pushing hard enough in HPDE that my safety equipment should be improved, going on to competition just seemed foolish without being more safe. At what point do you ban me because my car comes too close to being a race car?

[ff2skip]

- KB, who has been pushing for a rollbar requirement...

Just because a car has a roll bar doesn't mean that it's safe. Case in point from a thread on Corner-Carvers.com:

This car had an Autopower bolt-in 4-point roll bar. Note that the main hoop has punched through the floorpan. Driver and passenger were allegedly fine, but we're still not sure how they managed to be.

 

Mark

Guess I missed quite the exchange today.

 

Jon Felton relayed to me that had the car in question not had such crappy seats, the passengers might not have fared very well. According to him(forgive me as I can't recant his report word for word), the seatbacks broke, thereby allowing the occupants to escape being crushed. Iirc, a harness bar wasn't in place either. The hole that was punched through the floor was greater than the footprint of the base plates used.

 

That being said, not all bolt-in bars are bad. I have every confidence in my HardDog bar, however, I plan on getting caged this winter. This is just another step toward W2W should I elect to go that route going forward. Since there are no immediate plans to install a kill-switch or fire suppression system, I wouldn't classify my car as a "race" car. Simply calling a caged car a race car is not right. I do agree that my car can no longer be called a street car.

 

Just a few days shy of one year after my friend, a TT'er and instructor who drove his car to the track, was killed on track, you'd be hard pressed to sway my thinking toward adding safety equipment. And yeah, last event at VIR, I was beat by a PTB/former HC1 S2000 by over 2 seconds. Just makes me want to get better... safely.

[Boxer12]

Greg, I agree that 9/10's of the race drivers are not a problem. I don't agree that NASA does enough to remove overly aggressive drivers from the track during TT sessions. The thing about the video I showed is that there wasn't much traffic on that course. Imagine doing that through a group of HPDE4 drivers with 75 guys on the track at Mid Ohio with blind corners and hills.

 

Maybe race cars should have their own TT sessions. Maybe they just need a 'test' session like has been suggested here. I know some, like Danny and Ken in my region, are just going for track records and like the format. I have nothing against that, and they generally get an 'up front' grid spots and get off after they come up on lapped traffic. No problem. When we have had racers coming on late and barrelling through traffic to get a fast lap to go to the front, there have been lots of hairy moments. I personally experienced several very dangerous moments at Nationals. I brought it up on several occasions, as you probably recall. I believe safety should be the No. 1 priority. That is my only concern. Take my comments for what it's worth. I am not a race director and I am sure there are other ways to deal with the situation, but if you don't think there is an issue, ok, its your league. Enough said.

[kbrew8991]

since I know you missed reading this from your post, this is from Greg's, emphasis added:

 

The bottom line is that if you are having problems with a specific over-aggressive driver, whether he is a racer in a race car, a racer is a street car, or a TT driver in whatever car, you are at fault for not bringing that situation up in a download meeting, or at the very least, bringing the problem to your TT Director BEFORE the download meeting. If you feel that your TT Director is not doing enough to keep an over-aggressive driver under control, then you should speak with your Regional Director directly so the problem driver can be dealt with (or, your perception of the driver as a problem can be dealt with).

 

where is that head banging against the wall smiley? geezzz...

 

and I will say this as a Regional Director guy - even IF we're out on track or observing every TT session we CANNOT see everything that goes on at all times. We are not omniscient - we depend on participants to bring things such as this to our attention to be dealt with. And if you AREN'T doing that, how do you expect things to improve?

[Boxer12]

I agree that EVERYONE has a duty to be proactive about safety. I am pretty focused on my own driving and lap times, and don't always perceive the risk until I am driving home, and then I go 'wow, that was a WAY DANGEROUS PASS!...where did that guy come from and how many other guys did he have to pass like that to get to me???' I have been reflecting on the season, and just thought I would bring up my concern. I know you guys are reading and will continue the dialogue and I appreciate the chance to be heard.

[ninetyfourintegra]

I agree that EVERYONE has a duty to be proactive about safety. I am pretty focused on my own driving and lap times, and don't always perceive the risk until I am driving home, and then I go 'wow, that was a WAY DANGEROUS PASS!...where did that guy come from and how many other guys did he have to pass like that to get to me???' I have been reflecting on the season, and just thought I would bring up my concern. I know you guys are reading and will continue the dialogue and I appreciate the chance to be heard.

 

Racing is not chaotic to me as TT. In a race group, the goal of everyone is to get in front of the car in front of you and then get in front of the car in front of them. Everyone is on the same page.

 

TT, some are on a hot lap, some were on a hot lap but missed an apex and shut it down until the next lap, some are on a cool down. Some are 1:50's and some are sub 1:30's (at Mid-O). Closing rates are insane. I can recall coming out of the keyhole, checking my mirrors (nothing), passing through the starter stand, checking my mirrors (nothing), get into the braking zone for the end of the backstretch and get passed by 3 cars... WTF, where did they come from. I was certain I was being situationally aware but the closing rates were that drastic.

 

I've stuck to the race groups since then.

 

That said, my father has started HPDE and is using my car. Full race car but not a race driver. I would be sad to see him banned. I would also be sad to see any car banned for having too much safety equipment.

 

Sure, safety equipment gives you a sense of bigger.. ahem. But that would be the reason to install it. If you feel personally safer in a car with a cage you will be more confident and drive it harder, faster than without it. In search for the almighty laptime skill (and and confidence) are bigger factors than the car (all things equal).

[getfast]

thats another change I'd like to see made... ugh

 

timed sessions = no passengers

 

It has always has been that way in Mid-Atlantic, no passengers unless it's a shared warmup with HPDE3/4. The last thing we need is someone out with their buddy riding along, playing "hey y'all watch this" while transponders are running.

 

In fact I made a fool of myself with SE at RA because at the time I thought they had the same rule. "Hey grid guy, that car's going out to TT with a passenger, he needs to be black flagged, call it in!" "Uh, who are you and what are you talking about, we allow that."

[getfast]

Jon Felton relayed to me that had the car in question not had such crappy seats, the passengers might not have fared very well. According to him(forgive me as I can't recant his report word for word), the seatbacks broke, thereby allowing the occupants to escape being crushed. Iirc, a harness bar wasn't in place either. The hole that was punched through the floor was greater than the footprint of the base plates used.

 

Just to clarify, that was relayed to me secondhand from someone who was there, but it makes sense based on the before & after pics (reclining Corbeaus, Autopower "street/style rollbar" w/o harness bar.) Although I did see a pic of the punch holes after the fact and they were huge.

[kbrew8991]

they must've relaxed on that one since I left, or it was possibly a combined session for some reason

[getfast]

Was spring '07 IIRC. When we came down with Packer's old 240SX. You were there, we chatted

[Trevor57]

Let's not forget that one person's "aggresive," might be another person's 70%. Just one more reason to point out specific problems as they occur. Also another reason to use in car video, I never even watch mine. I just have it in case I need evidence.