2011 Rules Update & Leadership Team meeting minutes

[UBR]

Sounds like a warranty item to me, pretty sure the clock is not currently working.

I know a guy with a bunch of rental cars that we can steal one from. I'll bring a battery over next time we work on the cars.

 

j

[gbrown8439]

3) Power/Weight ratios have been and continue to be discussed. If you guys don't know me by now, I wouldn't make a power/weight change 2 months before the season starts. IF there are P/W any changes (and there may not be any), it would be phased in over time and the first change wouldn't be effective until the 2012 season at the earliest.

-=- Todd

 

We ARE only talking about AI here right?

[Grizlbits]

Greg, short answer is no. Both AI & AIX are in question.

 

There is a proposal to limit AIX HP. I guess it is just too bad if you designed a car on the current rules.

 

I am obviously not happy about an AIX limit. Anyone else share my dislike of this rule proposal? I feel it came out of nowhere.

[supermac]

Chris, obviously you have an amazing, well setup car! And don't you think that your huge amount of horsepower is keeping others from joining you? Forced induction is extremely intimidating for most people, and at your HP level it is a given. I have no dog in this fight, just noticing that you had nobody to race with at nationals? We had 2 guys in our region throw up thier hands after witnessing yours and Greg amazing cars, just too good! At more reasonable level, maybe they would have stayed?

[T&A Racing]

I have to agree with Chris on this one, while I have no dog in this fight. I think this is a slippery slope to adjust the rules because someone is just too fast, good or what ever. With a class named Extreme, limiting HP seems very counter to the spirit of the class. It seems the rules direction is leaning toward ready built race cars from manufactures not grassroots built cars in our home shops with a little bit of help from a few local shops around the country. So if Ford or GM isn't going to mass produce them then it looks like we won't be racing them. Of course in time this will be the end of our series since few of us can or even want to buy an off the shelf race car and go race, and when that happens we can all sit down the re-write the rules to pull back in true grassroots racers.

 

In short it is a bad rule and most likely will not bring any additional cars into the class over the long haul.

 

Thanks

Mark

[Red Tornado]

I actually like there thoughts behind it personally. You can always run SU if you want no holds barred. But if they cap AIX it can allow some more cars with a chance to win and more cars playing is my guess.

I think all changes are years off and they are giving plenty of heads up so nothing coming in 2011.

[Aaron B]

I am a fan of the AIX class, and love to see the lightweight big power cars, but the cost of admission into this club is a big one- 850-1000rwhp is astronomical- and on one hand maybe it should be, there are 3-5 TRUE AIX cars in the country running NASA, maybe a few more in garages being tweaked with plans to run- and if all 5 cars were ever in the same place at the same time running well, what a show! On the other hand I have to wonder if the same 2700lb package with a more attainable HP limit??? 600 maybe??

Edited December 29, 2010 by Guest

[Grizlbits]

Aaron,

 

My car was made for $75,000. Most of that was the turbo setup, engine, exhaust, fuel injection, AIM dash, etc. Why are we trying to chop the dicks off guys who got it right and made great cars? Then the series goes and PROMOTES a $70,000 factory built AI car, but changes the rules when a $75,000 does well? Seams hypocritical to me. There is more to be gained with a race ABS system at Mid Ohio than to be gained with HP. This rule change will force the really fast guys to SU, and the posers will be left forever finishing there cars to enter someday in what is left in AIX. It is always fun to race in SU against Radicals and the like were you can not see them when they dive bomb you under braking. They do not show up in your mirrors because they are so low (I already have problems with this in regional races)

 

Nationals? Give me a break. What 8 CMC cars? 11 AI cars? We have more AI & AIX cars at a crossover regional race. All classes were down. Salt Lake was convienient for NOBODY. Great track, but the logistics sucked for everyone. Paul Brown is competative at under 600 hp. A track like Mid Ohio will not favor a high hp car like Salt Lake or Road America will.

 

With this logic, I think we should cut CMC hp to 225 so real streat cars (1987 Mustang GT's) can race stock?

 

Intimidating, maybe. AIX is not about drivers that get intimidated. Hp is relatively cheap these days. Call Paul's Automotive Engineering if you would like a dependable 1000 HP turbo setup. Call DSS if you want an aluminum motor capable of handling the power. I can also recommend transmissions, rear ends, suspensions etc. I have seen a lot of people spend more on a AI car than what I have in my AIX car. If you talk to the right people, they can show you how to do it without selling your house. It isn't that hard. Contact the people who have already made it work. Don't try to reinvent the wheel. I already know 17 ways NOT to make an AIX car. I have broken enough parts on AIX cars to tell you what will NOT work. Call me and I will point you in the right direction if you are intimidated. First time building a car? Don't build an AIX car. Have a few cars under your belt and want something that is a blast to drive? Call me. I don't hide anything about my car. Call Paul Brown. Call Paul's Automotive Engineering. They will help you.

[T&A Racing]

It seems to me, this guessing game of what will bring more cars into NASA by messing with the rules is not very scientific. Changing one rule in one class can have impact on the other classes, this let them go run su or something is not going to benefit NASA overall. Moving guys from AI to AIX is because we just change the rules so that a few tweaks gets you to AIX HP should not be the goal of growing car count.

 

It would be nice to have some actually data about our market of grassroots racing to make decisions with. Have we done any market research, have we ask our friends at Ford or others in the business of racing what their research says. Heck have we even conducted a survey of all of NASA to understand why drivers pick one class over another.

 

Blindly shooting in the dark might hit something, but heck if we got smart about it used our resources turned on the lights we might actually be able to take some of the silly out of silly season.

 

Thanks

Mark

[gbrown8439]

IMO the perception that 850hp cost a lot more than 600 is an uneducated one. I have at least a dozen customers that are making 700-800rwhp in their street cars on pump gas. Quite a few of them on stock motors with upgraded superchargers. My engine and supercharger is strait out of the Ford Racing catalog and can be purchased for less than $15,000 including the supercharger. If you want to do it real cheap build a GM LS motor. You can buy one from the junkyard for $2000, put that much again in it for rods and pistons, slap a turbo on it and you are making 800RWHP for less than $10,000 if you do it right.

 

The transmission you need can be purchased new for the same cost as what comes in the FR500 which is being used in AI. If you are smart you buy a refurbished one from a NASCAR team for $3000 or less. I'm actually running a Tremec 6060 out of a Shelby GT500. It's not the best choice but it works well. You can buy these for less than $2000.

 

The rear end in my car is the exact same one that I ran in AI. Just a Ford 8.8 with upgraded axles. We have made 1300RWHP and gone 8.50 at 155 in the quarter mile weighing 3600# on an 8.8 rear end with good parts in it. There is no need for anything expensive to handle 850rwhp.

 

 

You think it will be cheaper to build my AIX car to 600hp? Wrong! To go from the 700 that I made this year to 850 next year I'm switching to a turbo and a relatively inexpensive boost controller. I'll spend an hour or two on the dyno to get as much power as I can and I'm ready to race.

 

If I have a 600hp limit I'm buying a very expensive boost controller and spending a solid day on the dyno. When I'm done the car would make 600hp from 3500rpm to 7500rpm thanks to tuning and the boost controller. These mystery people out there that will come and race if the power is lower will still lose miserably and complain that they can't compete.

 

People that know what they are doing and know what it takes to be competitive are not intimidated by the power level. They are going to use very similar parts whether they need 600hp or 900hp. It's just a matter of how much boost you run. The engine internals, transmission, and rear end are likely to be the same as are the costs.

 

When I started with NASA in 2003 there were hardly any AIX cars and you only needed 500hp to be competitive. Why would you think now that a lower power number would magically populate the class. If you want to see the class grow open up the rules and allow more diversity in the class.

[pbr96]

The HP limit rule is stupid. From my perspective and having several race cars, I don't care what everyone else is doing and built the car for me. My SN95 car has been almost the same since 1994 when I started racing it in World Challenge. It still has the same WC spec 351W motor, SLA, rear end, etc. but I upgraded the transmission, lightweight body panels and aero for AIX. Because this car has pro history I could care less what the power rule is because I have no plans to cut up the car and play catch up with everyone else.

 

From a competition level, AIX is and has been a "run what you brung" type format that allows you to be creative and have fun. Someone will always have more and can always spend more, so what, that is the case with any racing and I think it's even worse with "spec" classes. I've seen teams buy 5 motors to see which one made 5 more horse power, talk about crazy.

 

Either way I'll continue to run my 467 rwhp Mustang in AIX and do what I can, it was good enough to set the track record at Miller during last years Championships over all the hair dryer and Yates powered cars. In fact, I think it still stands unless I missed something.

 

Now if we could just get the dollar limit on the transmission removed that was set in what, 2001? So if you bought a Jerico 5 speed 5-10 years ago when they were 6K you can run it, but if you buy the same transmission now for 7500 you can't? What if you need to replace what you have...again, stupid rule. Spend as much as you want on the motor making big power; just don't spend it on the trans...and if it's extreme with no power to weight ratio, why have a minimum weight at all?

 

Paul Brown

Tiger Racing

[Ernesto Roco]

Having experienced both ends of this, here is my take on it:

 

1. Safety. With speeds approaching 185+ mph and beyond in these AIX cars it's only a matter of time until someone gets really hurt or killed even. AIX teams for the most part don't have the resources that let's say NASCAR team have in engineering the safest race car period. I think on average a boosted 1000hp car is about 20 mph faster down the straights against a 650 hp NA car. This could be the difference, I'm not sure but slowing down the cars is a step in the right direction.

 

2. Car counts. It's a lot easier to field, develop, rely, and be competitive in a 650 hp NA car than with a boosted 1000 hp car any day of the week, if you believe otherwise you are just kidding yourself.

 

a. Fielding a race car. The additional 300+ hp is going to push the components behind the engine that much harder. No matter how you look at it adding a few hundred horsepower through the trans, driveshaft, axles, differential, and engine components will decrease the reliability of these parts. How does that help car counts?

 

b. Develop. It's a hell of a lot easier to tune and optimize a NA car period. There are just so many things that can go wrong with a boosted setup, I know this for a fact. The typical NASA amateur racer on a budget will simply break the bank doing this and with that how do you expect the field to grow?

 

c. Reliablity. Things break when you add more power period. We should strive to see these cars be more reliable and with fewer moving parts. That makes for more consistent car counts and better racing I feel.

 

d. Competition. Driving and handling is where it's at. Let's fight for each position in the corners and not on the straightaways. What fun it that to watch somebody with a 1000 hp go around an overall quicker car on the straights.

 

 

Now I no longer have a dog in this fight and this is right off the top of my head but since I have been racing with AI/AIX since the very beginning I am really dissapointed to see the car counts and the direction it is heading. I believe putting a hp limit to slow these cars down is necessary to keep the series alive and is a step in the right direction.

 

 

Now somebody go buy my race car Price is reduced to 19K without engine and trans plus lots of spares, you'll see.

 

 

Yours truly,

Ernesto

[DuckTapeRacing]

I have no problem with a Cap on HP in AIX as long as it is

a reasonable figure say 1000rhp, nice round number.

Problem is how to verify the numbers, on the dynojet it's a little tough

as the RR tires have a tendency to bust loose around 850 to 900rhp.

A number like 650rhp is ludicris, hardly a heathly number for a properly

prepped street car.

Might work for a new class AI-Extreme Lite/Wus

[gbrown8439]

Having experienced both ends of this, here is my take on it:

 

1. Safety. With speeds approaching 185+ mph and beyond in these AIX cars it's only a matter of time until someone gets really hurt or killed even. AIX teams for the most part don't have the resources that let's say NASCAR team have in engineering the safest race car period. I think on average a boosted 1000hp car is about 20 mph faster down the straights against a 650 hp NA car. This could be the difference, I'm not sure but slowing down the cars is a step in the right direction.

 

2. Car counts. It's a lot easier to field, develop, rely, and be competitive in a 650 hp NA car than with a boosted 1000 hp car any day of the week, if you believe otherwise you are just kidding yourself.

 

a. Fielding a race car. The additional 300+ hp is going to push the components behind the engine that much harder. No matter how you look at it adding a few hundred horsepower through the trans, driveshaft, axles, differential, and engine components will decrease the reliability of these parts. How does that help car counts?

 

b. Develop. It's a hell of a lot easier to tune and optimize a NA car period. There are just so many things that can go wrong with a boosted setup, I know this for a fact. The typical NASA amateur racer on a budget will simply break the bank doing this and with that how do you expect the field to grow?

 

c. Reliablity. Things break when you add more power period. We should strive to see these cars be more reliable and with fewer moving parts. That makes for more consistent car counts and better racing I feel.

 

d. Competition. Driving and handling is where it's at. Let's fight for each position in the corners and not on the straightaways. What fun it that to watch somebody with a 1000 hp go around an overall quicker car on the straights.

 

 

Now I no longer have a dog in this fight and this is right off the top of my head but since I have been racing with AI/AIX since the very beginning I am really dissapointed to see the car counts and the direction it is heading. I believe putting a hp limit to slow these cars down is necessary to keep the series alive and is a step in the right direction.

 

 

Now somebody go buy my race car Price is reduced to 19K without engine and trans plus lots of spares, you'll see.

 

 

Yours truly,

Ernesto

 

You know the funny thing is a lot of your points are exactly what I like about AIX and why I don't want it restricted.

 

Yes, it's harder to keep things together.

Yes it's easier to set up and race a lower powered car.

Yes, I'm going a LOT faster than some of the other cars on track.

These are all reasons that I like the class.

 

I like to think outside the box and do things different than others. They don't always work out but I still have fun. AIX lets me have that fun. UNRESTRICTED fun.

 

If I wanted to race in a series where the power was manageable, the setup was predictable, and the closing speeds were less I would race in one of the many spec series that NASA offers.

 

Why not let the Vettes and Vipers come play in AIX if you want to see an immediate jump in car counts. They are American Iron and if you write the rules right they could compete very well. I seem to remember Chris getting run down at Nationals by a Viper that had about 300hp less than him. How about all of the old World Challenge GT cars? Where are they racing now? Why can't they race with us?

 

Don't try to grow the class by excluding people, do it by letting more people in.

[GTO1]

I second that!!!!!

[D Algozine]

Now if we could just get the dollar limit on the transmission removed that was set in what, 2001? So if you bought a Jerico 5 speed 5-10 years ago when they were 6K you can run it, but if you buy the same transmission now for 7500 you can't? What if you need to replace what you have...again, stupid rule. Spend as much as you want on the motor making big power; just don't spend it on the trans...and if it's extreme with no power to weight ratio, why have a minimum weight at all?

 

Paul Brown

Tiger Racing

 

I'm confused. Is the following accurate - AI can use one these ( http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=7619 ) $7,100 transmissions, but AIX can't use a $7,500 Jerico? That seems very odd.

[Grizlbits]

A 5 speed road race jerico starts around $5,200. Check their website, it is listed right on it.

 

The viper had slicks btw. Next year it is 99% likely AIX will have slicks also. Then we will see what an AIX car can do without the tires giving up after 30 minutes.

 

I know Ernesto had trouble with the turbo setup. I did not. My entire car was new at Nationals in 2009. Paul's Auto crammed to finish it 2 days before I needed to leave for Utah. Brand new car, first shakeout was at nationals, turbo setup and all. Just a few minor tweaks. Another season in 2010, a few more tweeks for this winter. The car seems to be pretty reliable IMO.

[supermac]

Why not let the Vettes and Vipers come play in AIX if you want to see an immediate jump in car counts. They are American Iron and if you write the rules right they could compete very well. I seem to remember Chris getting run down at Nationals by a Viper that had about 300hp less than him. How about all of the old World Challenge GT cars? Where are they racing now? Why can't they race with us?

 

Don't try to grow the class by excluding people, do it by letting more people in.

 

They are in SU or ST, I have a stupid question? Why dont you guys move to SUPER UNLIMITED and do WHATEVER you want? Not to be a dick, but whether you admit it or not, Pauls mustang signed the death warrant of AIX in its current form. Or haven't you noticed that only 3 people are griping about this?

[robbodleimages]

2 points.

 

1. The T56R lingers on website, but its gone. There are no new one's to be bought. You can have one if you can find a used one. One more thing. As best i can tell a Jerico trans is priced that way based on many applications. Its a market price. The Ford Racing T56R is priced that way because its a spec part for a car in a single racing series. If you want to race the mustang in grand am, you have to use that gear box. Its not a market price.

 

2. What is the fundimental difference between aix and su?

Edited December 30, 2010 by Guest

[nape]

They are in SU or ST, I have a stupid question? Why dont you guys move to SUPER UNLIMITED and do WHATEVER you want? Not to be a dick, but whether you admit it or not, Pauls mustang signed the death warrant of AIX in its current form. Or haven't you noticed that only 3 people are griping about this?

 

What was the current form of AIX, cars not built to the limit of the rules?

 

The people who are scared of the turbo cars don't realize that the turbo builds are cheaper for more HP then a high strung, 800HP NA engine.

 

The reason there's only 3 people griping about this is they're 3 people in the country with real AIX cars. Most of the other AIX cars are:

 

1. People who missed the AI HP number and can't/won't choke it down.

2. People who want to run take offs/Hoosiers/tire of the week.

3. People who want an excuse to not run AI and be field fillers.

4. Pick your poison because they're a million other excuses to not be competitive.

 

If you think these cars belong in SU, you need to watch a good Sports Racer and see it's times.

[pbr96]

A 5 speed road race jerico starts around $5,200. Check their website, it is listed right on it. quote]

 

Thats new, last year I checked and they told me $7600 and they didn't want to build them anymore and it would be a 6 month wait if I still wanted one.

 

 

 

Another piece of information that would have been nice to know about for the class that was to be left alone. It will also show the weakness that the DOT tire hides.

[74 mach]

Supermac,

 

Let me see if I have this right. I signed the death warrant of AIX (much less in a 65 Mustang with stock frame rails)by.

1 reading the rules

2 researching the most cost effective and reliable way to make competitive power

3 received writen approval (and encouragement) by the powers that be (John Lindsey)

4 worked hard and executed my plan

 

Now they want to DUMB down the class.

 

Why would we want to run Super Unlimited (and have to compete against tube frame cars)when we have built legal cars under the strict AIX guide lines?

 

By the way SUPERMAC, what car do you race?

[supermac]

2 points.

 

1. The T56R lingers on website, but its gone. There are no new one's to be bought. You can have one if you can find a used one. One more thing. As best i can tell a Jerico trans is priced that way based on many applications. Its a market price. The Ford Racing T56R is priced that way because its a spec part for a car in a single racing series. If you want to race the mustang in grand am, you have to use that gear box. Its not a market price.

 

2. What is the fundimental difference between aix and su?

 

1. There is a company that will build you a copy of that tranny for 4K just send them your T-56 as a core.

Why this is even a debate is beyond me?

 

2. I have no idea, please show me, I am genuinely interested.

[supermac]

They are in SU or ST, I have a stupid question? Why dont you guys move to SUPER UNLIMITED and do WHATEVER you want? Not to be a dick, but whether you admit it or not, Pauls mustang signed the death warrant of AIX in its current form. Or haven't you noticed that only 3 people are griping about this?

 

What was the current form of AIX, cars not built to the limit of the rules?

 

The people who are scared of the turbo cars don't realize that the turbo builds are cheaper for more HP then a high strung, 800HP NA engine.

 

The reason there's only 3 people griping about this is they're 3 people in the country with real AIX cars. Most of the other AIX cars are:

 

1. People who missed the AI HP number and can't/won't choke it down.

2. People who want to run take offs/Hoosiers/tire of the week.

3. People who want an excuse to not run AI and be field fillers.

4. Pick your poison because they're a million other excuses to not be competitive.

 

If you think these cars belong in SU, you need to watch a good Sports Racer and see it's times.

 

Kinda my point, what do AI and AIX really have in common? They started life as camaros or mustangs? Regular people just don't have the knowledge to do what these guys have done. Do I think they "belong" in SU, I dunno but if you read their post they really lament being shackled by the rules and the want to run with Vipers and Vettes, sounds like unlimited is what they crave? It is AI extreme not AI unlimited after all.

 

Your points 1-4 are a great reason to not have an AIX class, if it did not exist those people could get in compliance or fun run with AI till they did, either way we would have bigger fields.

 

I come from a motocross background and they started with a few basic classes, after little timmy and the fat old man couldn't win they whined and got thier own classes and then we went from being there a day, to being there all weekend, with less track time.

[supermac]

Supermac,

 

Let me see if I have this right. I signed the death warrant of AIX (much less in a 65 Mustang with stock frame rails)by.

1 reading the rules

2 researching the most cost effective and reliable way to make competitive power

3 received writen approval (and encouragement) by the powers that be (John Lindsey)

4 worked hard and executed my plan

 

Now they want to DUMB down the class.

 

Why would we want to run Super Unlimited (and have to compete against tube frame cars)when we have built legal cars under the strict AIX guide lines?

 

By the way SUPERMAC, what car do you race?

 

I love your car, it is awesome! I think what you did was very impressive and showed your immense talent!

Your points are all valid, and I don't think the intent is to dumb down the class, I see it as attempt to save the class?

If the intent is to have a couple of ridiculously fast cars lapping the entire field then great, but I would guess that as a racer you would like to race? Who are you racing with?

 

I have a 2000 Camaro that I "fill the field" with in AI.

I had a 1995 built to the limit of the rules CMC Camaro ( in fact they changed one after ran it)

Cody Powell