2011 Rules Update & Leadership Team meeting minutes

[stevepoe]

Everything you said may be true, however, Putnam has only one real breaking zone in the whole 1.8 mile track, and it's not even a heavy brake zone.

 

 

Dave I'll argue this point as well

 

look at this .

 

mid ohio this year

 

 

Jay Andrew #11, 2-time National Champion - 1:35.8 (Track Record) with a race abs system on his car and we all know Jay is no slouch behind the wheel

 

TJ #134 - 1:36.0 no abs

 

.2 TENTHS mid-ohio huge braking zones.

 

two drivers with talent one with abs one without . what huge advantage do you see ?

 

I personally watched this race as well and I can tell you TJ finished ahead of a few mustang with race abs

 

Thoughts ?

Edited January 4, 2011 by Guest

[stevepoe]

btw Burnett ran a 136.2 no abs. just a little talent as well .

 

abs makes a average driver better. a good driver is good with or without abs

[RichardP]

When looking at lap times to determine the effectiveness of ABS, one needs to remember that lap times are only relevant in time trial and qualifying. A single missed braking zone off line, in the marbles, in traffic can mean a several second loss and passes that just can't be made back up. The guy that crosses the finish line first often didn't get the fast lap...

 

 

Richard P.

[supermac]

btw Burnett ran a 136.2 no abs. just a little talent as well .

 

abs makes a average driver better. a good driver is good with or without abs

 

Fair enough, if the good don't need it then they won't mind getting rid of it.

 

You and everybody else spewing this particular statement, need to stop insulting our intelligence.

 

If it wasn't an advantage (real or perceived) then it would be gone already.

 

I will gladly listen to all your other well made points, just not this one.

 

BTW How many laps did TJ and Burnett run those times? To win nationals you need to be able to consistently run those times.

 

I would bet a few bucks that Burnett will have ABS by next years nationals?

[supermac]

When looking at lap times to determine the effectiveness of ABS, one needs to remember that lap times are only relevant in time trial and qualifying. A single missed braking zone off line, in the marbles, in traffic can mean a several second loss and passes that just can't be made back up. The guy that crosses the finish line first often didn't get the fast lap...

 

 

Richard P.

 

Crap, beat me to it! Haha

[stevepoe]

I give up . this argument is not about winning a race it's about a advantage of abs or not .

 

I Gave you lap times of two cars ai legal with and without abs . At a track with heavy brake zones. It wasn't a who won the race rather it was to show the fast lap times of the race..2 is what it was. hardley anything to say race abs is a Must have.

 

take a look a qualifying times then they are very close as well.

 

like beating a dead horse with some of you guys

 

If AI is looking to move forward abs needs to stay in my opinion . new cars today have it.

 

sounds like we need another sand box for some to play in . ai vintage? maybe cmc2 ?

Edited January 4, 2011 by Guest

[supermac]

 

yes TJ didn't make nationals but do some research on the national championship winning car vs TJ'S Times in the great lakes region . His is right there with him without abs.

 

 

Keep in mind that iT's probably a 5-1 ratio of non ford vs ford in AI and has been that way since I've been around it since 2003. And that was way before abs was a factor. Ford has always been the dominate car Count in AI .

 

I wasn't trying to make it a money deal I was just saying that the average cars running in ai now days are more money then years past. AI is evolving and getting more reconized . The competition is way more then years past and is only going to get better. Showing up with a average car is just going to get it done anymore without talent and a lot of thinking outside the box. How much out of the box thinking is involved in building Deans car? Just call RR and write a check.

 

2011 nationals will probably go to a mustang again . watch great lakes this year and mid ohio track records. It's going to drop again and again . I look to see 12-15 ai cars every race this year in our region. Agreed

 

knowing who is building cars and of the people I know that are building they are all building mustangs and bringing talent along with them.Exactly why I am pushing Tommy that way and bitching about these rules

 

also keep in mind that is just is not the car . Dean is a veteran driver with pro racing in his resume along with the know how of what works and doesn't work. That itself is huge .

[supermac]

I give up . this argument is not about winning a race it's about a advantage of abs or not .

 

I Gave you lap times of two cars ai legal with and without abs . At a track with heavy brake zones. It wasn't a who won the race rather it was to show the fast lap times of the race..2 is what it was. hardley anything to say race abs is a Must have.

 

take a look a qualifying times then they are very close as well.

 

like beating a dead horse with some of you guys

 

If AI is looking to move forward abs needs to stay in my opinion . new cars today have it.

 

sounds like we need another sand box for some to play in . ai vintage? maybe cmc2 ?

 

If you truly believe what you say, just call the future of AI on this path what it is, spec FR500.

[stevepoe]

How much out of the box thinking is involved in building Deans car? Just call RR and write a check.

 

 

none really . I was speaking of TJ'S Car. What I was trying to show is the different ends of the spectrum.

 

dean "talent" years of experience with the chassis and some very good contacts . Pretty much a car out of a parts book With abs and a price to go along with it.

 

TJ "talent" outside the box thinking , resourceful, a few home made parts no abs way less money and just as fast with a 25year old car.

 

If you truly believe what you say, just call the future of AI on this path what it is, spec FR500.

 

Ahhhh...come on spec fr500 ? nah maybe spec mustang ...I can't afford a fr500.

 

Don't blame ford for gm's downfall and lack of support in racing parts .

[D Algozine]

I give up . I Gave you lap times of two cars with and without abs . At a track with heavy brake zones. It wasn't a who won the race rather it was to show the fast lap times of the race..2 is what it was. hardley anything to say race abs is a Must have.

 

take a look a qualifying times then they are very close as well.

 

like beating a dead horse with some of you guys

 

If ai is looking to move forward abs needs to stay . new cars today have it.

 

sounds like we need another sand box for some to play in . ai vintage? maybe cmc2 ?

 

 

Nearly all competitve AI cars are built from a stripped shell or a BIW. From that point real race parts are purchased and reassembled. How many stock engines, trans, brake calipers, radiators, differentials, shocks , springs, rims, seats, etc... are re-used? A very small portion. How simple is it to not re-install the ABS. As you have indicated costs have gone up and more highly competitive cars are being built. Certainly someone spending the time, money and effort can re-plumb the front brake lines.

It's not as simple to say that "someone" without a race system is faster then "someone" who has it. You can make many different driver and car comparisons and non of them really matter. If they really don't make that big of a difference then no one would really miss them. The reality is, that it's a highly tuned, effective, inexpensive system that readily bolts on to one single AI platform. The rest of the platforms would need to spend thousands to try and retrofit the Ford Racing or any other race system. Not to mention that the current ABS rules are impossible to enforce. Who can check and verify if an any ABS system has been re-flashed or modified?

[supermac]

Steve I am a pure capitalist, I am not blaming Ford at all, in fact if you had read my earlier post I said that. GM has dropped the ball, and given a free market anybody with a desire to win is going to drive a Ford.

Having said that, I would guess that NASA doesnt want Spec FR500 (cause thats what it will become, and don't you already have one ) so what could they do to avoid that? Penalizing or getting rid of ABS would give the outnumbered and outgunned GM guys a chance.

I could be wrong but don't the most advanced cars in the world, F1, run without ABS? If they can run without it, I am sure we will survive without it.

[Grizlbits]

Nearly all competitve AI cars are built from a stripped shell or a BIW. From that point real race parts are purchased and reassembled. How many stock engines, trans, brake calipers, radiators, differentials, shocks , springs, rims, seats, etc... are re-used? A very small portion. How simple is it to not re-install the ABS. As you have indicated costs have gone up and more highly competitive cars are being built. Certainly someone spending the time, money and effort can re-plumb the front brake lines.

It's not as simple to say that "someone" without a race system is faster then "someone" who has it. You can make many different driver and car comparisons and non of them really matter. If they really don't make that big of a difference then no one would really miss them. The reality is, that it's a highly tuned, effective, inexpensive system that readily bolts on to one single AI platform. The rest of the platforms would need to spend thousands to try and retrofit the Ford Racing or any other race system. Not to mention that the current ABS rules are impossible to enforce. Who can check and verify if an any ABS system has been re-flashed or modified?

 

 

Dave, one problem is that the new cars come with it, and if you disable it, it wrecks the bias and has negative effects on the braking system. I am sure a Ford geek can jump in here with specifics. So the issue is always more complicated as always. I would hate to have someone build a fairly stock new AI car, try to disable the ABS, and then have to redo the braking system. Nothing is ever easy.

 

Chris

[edhunter]

Dave, one problem is that the new cars come with it, and if you disable it, it wrecks the bias and has negative effects on the braking system. I am sure a Ford geek can jump in here with specifics. So the issue is always more complicated as always. I would hate to have someone build a fairly stock new AI car, try to disable the ABS, and then have to redo the braking system. Nothing is ever easy.

 

Chris

 

... therefore wouldn't a weight penalty make the most sense?? Certainly better than doing nothing, would be easy to implement, enforce, etc... , and would pacify to some extent those that don't run ABS... It'd also be easy to reverse course and change the rules again if it didn't work out, no major refit required.

ed

AI #215

[stevepoe]

therefore wouldn't a weight penalty make the most sense?? Certainly better than doing nothing

 

has a car yet dominated because of a abs system ? if so please tell us who is winning and can't be caught because they have abs .

 

I know of nobody doing this

 

also last year Pat Lindsey pretty much covered the field from my understanding at miller nationals before braking in the national race .abs? nope

 

Ross murray Race abs pretty sure he doesn't have it either.

[supermac]

therefore wouldn't a weight penalty make the most sense?? Certainly better than doing nothing

 

has a car yet dominated because of a abs system ? if so please tell us who is winning and can't be caught because they have abs .

 

I know of nobody doing this

 

also last year Pat Lindsey pretty much covered the field from my understanding at miller nationals before braking in the national race .abs? nope

 

Ross murray Race abs pretty sure he doesn't have it either.

He didn't break, he had his cheater computer taken away. He is a terrible example.

[stevepoe]

He didn't break, he had his cheater computer taken away. He is a terrible example

I Wasn't aware he was charged with that and dq'd ?

 

I was under the impression that was a RUMOR . sort of like how abs just dominates

[T&A Racing]

therefore wouldn't a weight penalty make the most sense?? Certainly better than doing nothing

 

has a car yet dominated because of a abs system ? if so please tell us who is winning and can't be caught because they have abs .

 

I know of nobody doing this

 

also last year Pat Lindsey pretty much covered the field from my understanding at miller nationals before braking in the national race .abs? nope

 

Ross murray Race abs pretty sure he doesn't have it either.

He didn't break, he had his cheater computer taken away. He is a terrible example.

 

Hey I was in the garage right next to Pat and I saw the broken valve spring my self, don't knw anything about a computer being taken away didn't see that. But i think we need to be very careful about calling any a one a cheater. Even if you think you know, it wold be doubtful that any of us other than NASA or Pat would have all of the facts. Now back to your regular scheduled rant on abs.

[gbrown8439]

He didn't break, he had his cheater computer taken away. He is a terrible example.

 

You know, comments like this are BS. Were you there? Did you see how much time they spent on our dyno?

 

I saw how hard those guys worked and how well that car was set up. Based on everything I saw they had the most developed and well set up AI car I have ever seen. Accusing them of cheating is BS, especially since you have absolutely no proof.

Lets not even bring up the witch hunt that went on after that. Someone spends a ton of time and money to build a car to the limit of the rules and when he wins everyone assumes he is cheating? That doesn't make sense and it makes us look bad as a group. Most people don't want to come and race with bunch of sore loosers that cry "cheater" when they get beat.

[Sidney]

Don't forget it RAINS at Mid-Ohio and that track is slick as snot when it's wet. ABS will be an advantage.

 

Carry on,

 

Sidney

[supermac]

He didn't break, he had his cheater computer taken away. He is a terrible example.

 

You know, comments like this are BS. Were you there? Did you see how much time they spent on our dyno?

 

I saw how hard those guys worked and how well that car was set up. Based on everything I saw they had the most developed and well set up AI car I have ever seen. Accusing them of cheating is BS, especially since you have absolutely no proof.

Lets not even bring up the witch hunt that went on after that. Someone spends a ton of time and money to build a car to the limit of the rules and when he wins everyone assumes he is cheating? That doesn't make sense and it makes us look bad as a group. Most people don't want to come and race with bunch of sore loosers that cry "cheater" when they get beat.

I have no proof? He had a notched frame, many people saw this and it us against the rules! DQ

I know for a fact(and you can ask Todd or Al) he was asked to retune his computer and Todd kept it after the retune the night before the final race. And magically he was not dominating after this?

You do not cover the entire AI field by 2 seconds with a well set up and developed car, you and I both know something was up.

I called it as I saw it then and I stand behind it now.

[edhunter]

Anyone can argue one way or the other that ABS is/is not an advantage under dry conditions (wets a different matter). What remains is it is a PERCEIVED advantage ALWAYS, otherwise why keep it? Why spend the bucks to develop it? Why hassle with another added complexity? Is adding a hundred pounds (random number suggested elsewhere) a big disadvantage? Hell it might even help a car get off the corners better... But it will be a PERCEIVED disadvantage, as we all want to get as light as legally possible. Perceptions fuel emotions, accusations, hard feelings... So balance one with the other, if no other reason than to give us non-abs guys one less thing to bitch about Unless something is done the ABS debate will never go away. Either eliminate it ($$$/PITA), open it up ($$$/PITA), or penalize it (CHEAP, EASY, DEFINABLE, REVERSIBLE/ALTERABLE, OPTIONAL, AVAILABLE). Simple.

[T&A Racing]

He didn't break, he had his cheater computer taken away. He is a terrible example.

 

You know, comments like this are BS. Were you there? Did you see how much time they spent on our dyno?

 

I saw how hard those guys worked and how well that car was set up. Based on everything I saw they had the most developed and well set up AI car I have ever seen. Accusing them of cheating is BS, especially since you have absolutely no proof.

Lets not even bring up the witch hunt that went on after that. Someone spends a ton of time and money to build a car to the limit of the rules and when he wins everyone assumes he is cheating? That doesn't make sense and it makes us look bad as a group. Most people don't want to come and race with bunch of sore loosers that cry "cheater" when they get beat.

I have no proof? He had a notched frame, many people saw this and it us against the rules! DQ

I know for a fact(and you can ask Todd or Al) he was asked to retune his computer and Todd kept it after the retune the night before the final race. And magically he was not dominating after this?

You do not cover the entire AI field by 2 seconds with a well set up and developed car, you and I both know something was up.

I called it as I saw it then and I stand behind it now.

 

 

Wow, you must have been a lot more in with the behind the scenes guys, too bad being a fellow AI racer you didn't stop by and say hi. I along with many others was able to admire the work on Pat's car. I was standing there when it was discussed how legal the front clip was and how extra metal (not frame rails) had been removed. I don't recall any one pointing out notched frame rails.

 

From my perspective you are short on facts and long on accusations. If you watched the race you would have noticed Pat's car was fine the first half of the race, it began to slow about half way and sounded like ti was only only 7 or 6 when it came back into the garage.

 

I said it last year, Pat was too fast for the powers that be, got there by build a legal car to the limit or close to it of the rules. So they changed the rules and now Pat and that car is gone from our series along a few others.

 

I think the ABS one is tough, seems bad to pull it out of other wise legal cars. Seems unfair since the same part is not really available across the manufactors. It seems like there are many features on each of the platforms that are better or worse than an other. It seems like ABS is just one of them. If I get a vote, and remember none of us do, I would say make any ABS legal as long as it is readily avaialbe on the open market. If you want to spend big bucks have at it, racing aint cheap you know. If you want to man up, run with no assist and no abs.

[Red Tornado]

Wow folks getting down right nasty.

 

FLASHBACK:

This will be a sobering flashback. So at VIR when AI first started I ran a 1995 Firebird that made 265rwhp and weighed 3,600lbs. Brian Shug's car back than was also at like 13 to 1 power to weight. Hell mine was street legal and I drove it to the races on the toyo's and drove it home.

 

Only one guy even had a car at or near 9.5 to 1. The most crapped out car today would have crushed anybody back then. Those of you who raced the past 10 yrs or so know what I am talking about.

 

So I for one say praise the racing gods for now having tons of top cars and alot of folks running and tons of performance part options.

 

ABS:

ABS?? Wasn't that like invented in the early 80's like over 30 years ago. Yes it helps a ton in the rain but in the dry...perhaps a touch.

 

REALITY BAD MOUTH CHECK:

Can I also point out one small thing that folks miss???

 

So who sponsors AI today at all??? Toyo, Hawk, and...... I know there are a few for nationals but that's it.

 

So if Ford decided to build cars and good quality parts and even mentions AI when they sell and build a brand new car we should trash them because it's just not fair. Is that what guys did back in the late 60's in those trans am days?? If GM steps up I will be thrilled!!

 

If top shops and top drivers build max cars that help develop parts for all of us over time at a cheaper cost thats not a great thing??

 

Anyway something I think alot of folks lose site of these basics and that is what racing has always been about.

[supermac]

 

 

Wow, you must have been a lot more in with the behind the scenes guys, too bad being a fellow AI racer you didn't stop by and say hi. I along with many others was able to admire the work on Pat's car. I was standing there when it was discussed how legal the front clip was and how extra metal (not frame rails) had been removed. I don't recall any one pointing out notched frame rails.I was talking about his rear frame rails

 

From my perspective you are short on facts and long on accusations. If you watched the race you would have noticed Pat's car was fine the first half of the race, it began to slow about half way and sounded like ti was only only 7 or 6 when it came back into the garage. My close friend Tommy told me all week Pat was passing him as if he was standing still, after the retune Tommy passed him at the start of the main race, coincidence? Again I ask you to talk to Todd or AL and ask them why they would have asked for the retune and then the confiscation of said computer.

 

I said it last year, Pat was too fast for the powers that be, got there by build a legal car to the limit or close to it of the rules. So they changed the rules and now Pat and that car is gone from our series along a few others.And I said it last year and i think it was proved this year NOBODY puts two seconds on a very good field.

 

I think the ABS one is tough, seems bad to pull it out of other wise legal cars. Seems unfair since the same part is not really available across the manufactors. It seems like there are many features on each of the platforms that are better or worse than an other. It seems like ABS is just one of them. If I get a vote, and remember none of us do, I would say make any ABS legal as long as it is readily avaialbe on the open market. If you want to spend big bucks have at it, racing aint cheap you know. If you want to man up, run with no assist and no abs.I will man up and race will you?

[nape]

14" brakes and 18" wheels, LS1s in Fords, ABS, and some others I'm forgetting.

 

These are things that have been part of AI in the last 5 years and none of them are world beaters by themselves.

 

A race car is a package or a system. Certain parts by themselves are useless. You have to figure out the way to extract the most performance of each component while not having it work against another component.

 

My car has 1" of suspension travel in bump. I run a 4 speed transmission. I run a 2-bolt main 305 with a stock cast crank, cast pistons, stock pushrods, and I'll run it out to 7200RPM before I lift if I need it. My car runs 230-240 degrees all race if the ambient temp is over 55*F. The temp gauge was up around 260* when I beat Dean at Putnam because we were being held up by all the ST and SU cars.

 

None of those things by themselves make any difference, but together, it's all part of a package that's capable of running up front every weekend it hits the track. If you focus too hard on the large items, all the little ones you should be paying attention to will breeze right by you.

 

As far as the ABS argument, it's definitely a nice feature to have in the trick bag. As far as having factory "aero", it's still a Mustang. Buy one if you like wasting HP to push a brick through the wind.