2013 Rules Change Requests (RCRs)

[jdlingle]

Guys,

We are getting close. We have a rough draft in hand... I apologize for the entire leadership committee on the delay in getting this out. It's been out of our control, literally.

 

Rough cut is all S197's are at 3500lbs minimum and 12:1 HP/TQ. It was the only way we could get the other platforms on a level playing field. And they are on R888's as a spec tire.

Kidding...

 

 

Fixed it for you so you won't have to put on the flame proof undies Marshall!

[robbodleimages]

didnt fool me. those are the s197 rules in cmc.

[UBR]

Jim, where do you run, what region?

 

We switched to NASA Central for 2012. Ran in Midwest the last 4 years as crew chief on Mark Adams AI car while doing HPDE to keep in shape. Plan on running Central Region for 2013 as we grow the region.

 

j

[Fair]

American Iron 1, 2, 3, 4. Been suggested before. Drop CMC and call it AI-4. Add the new base Mustang, Camaro, Challenger and call is AI-3. Same AI for AI-2, and AIX is AI-1. Done.

 

Sidney

Nice! That sure would make explaining the CMC+AI series to the uninitiated easier.

[D Algozine]

didnt fool me. those are the s197 rules in cmc.

 

Take your shots.... It may or may not be the correct call, but atleast CMC is trying not to turn into another all S197 class. Seems ironic that NASA is contemplating a spec Mustang class, when you look at what has already happened to AI (I mean Grand Am Mustang).

Also, the 10 year anniversery of the S197 is just around the corner (two more years), so the AI directors should look at altering the rules to allow those "Old retired pro cars". As the average age of amatuer production car turned race car is about 10 years. Oh wait, they already made those rule adjustments over 5 years ago.

Edited January 9, 2013 by Guest

[robbodleimages]

didnt fool me. those are the s197 rules in cmc.

 

Take your shots.... It may or may not be the correct call, but atleast CMC is trying not to turn into another all S197 class. Seems ironic that NASA is contemplating a spec Mustang class, when you look at what has already happened to AI.

 

dave, taking the s197 mustang out of cmc guarantees a shelf life on the cmc class. no new cars are coming. when the current 15 to 25 year old cars cant make it anymore, the class is dead.

 

personally, spreading the 05 and newer mustang among ai, aix, spec s197, st3 and st2 only puts ai in the same position of a short lifespan.

 

but, you got what you wanted.

[D Algozine]

you got your way. lets see how it works out

 

No idea what you mean by "you got your way". My way was not to start changing the rules 6 years ago, but that ship has sailed along with a lot of racers. Of course, a lot of Rehagan race cars were sold and Ford sold a far amount of thier spec racers. Certainly not a bad thing, but it certainly has drastically changed the face of the class. Perhaps this is what the call was supposed to be all about in the beginning.

[robbodleimages]

you got your way. lets see how it works out

Certainly not a bad thing, but it certainly has drastically changed the face of the class. Perhaps this is what the call was supposed to be all about in the beginning.

 

i spent all season in nasa se chasing two camaros. from the time ive been in nasa american iron the face of the class never changed. my view is that some gm racers talked themselves out of it.

 

now, i dont live where guys that work for ford were bringing their own cars out, but from where i race the cars to beat have been a mustang driven by chris desalvo and two camaro drivers.

[D Algozine]

dave, taking the s197 mustang out of cmc guarantees a shelf life on the cmc class. no new cars are coming. when the current 15 to 25 year old cars cant make it anymore, the class is dead.

 

S197 has not been removed from CMC. Again, not sure if the rule adjustments are completely accurate, but they are trying to level the playing field.

And I agree, CMC needs to figure out how to get the Dodge and GM new cars into the class. The directors were forced into allowing the S197 without any real testing, so it went bad. I assume or I hope CMC directors will evaluate the class and new cars and figure out how to fit them into the class. But instead of trying to allow brand new, untested, highly superior, well engineered cars into the class within a year or two of thier introduction, perhaps they will make wise and calculated adjustments, as the cars age, become more affordable, more available, more is learned about them, and testing is done......etc. I fall back on the basic 10 year rule in amutuer production racing cars. And keep in mind CMC is desgined to be a lower cost class.

[robbodleimages]

dave, so far as i know the s197's in cmc have all left. the directors knew that this rule adjustment would force them out and wanted that. the spec s197 rules being talked about are an attempt to build a cmc like class for the s197 cars to remain in without having to jump clear to american iron, where guys that feel like you do want them out as well.

 

me....i dont think i will run ai again ever.

[D Algozine]

you got your way. lets see how it works out

Certainly not a bad thing, but it certainly has drastically changed the face of the class. Perhaps this is what the call was supposed to be all about in the beginning.

 

i spent all season in nasa se chasing two camaros. from the time ive been in nasa american iron the face of the class never changed. my view is that some gm racers talked themselves out of it.

 

now, i dont live where guys that work for ford were bringing their own cars out, but from where i race the cars to beat have been a mustang driven by chris desalvo and two camaro drivers.

 

Take a wider look. Just for a broader national review, look at the Nationals in AI, and how many S197 finished in the top 3 or even top 5, from the very first year it was introduced (2006) up to 2012. Just look at the National entry list over the last few years. I watched the video of the National race for 2012 and between AI and the ST classes, it was a herd of new Mustangs. I'm sure each region will be slightly different.

[D Algozine]

dave, so far as i know the s197's in cmc have all left. the directors knew that this rule adjustment would force them out and wanted that. the spec s197 rules being talked about are an attempt to build a cmc like class for the s197 cars to remain in without having to jump clear to american iron, where guys that feel like you do want them out as well.

 

me....i dont think i will run ai again ever.

 

To my knowledge, there were only (3) S197's in CMC in the entire nation, and two of them have dominated the Nationals for the last two years. So, why wouldn't they "attempt" to level the field, before it turns into another spec S197 class?

[robbodleimages]

i dont really need to take a wider view. wil stukas crashed in the wet at the nationals with a legit chance to win. that he wrecked doesnt mean that the car wasnt competitive. further i saw the same car race dean martin fender to fender in december at road atlanta in a race where the entire nationals top 5 was in attendance.

 

further. as i recall there were only 3 gm cars entered at the nationals. with one starting up front. you cant finish on the podium if you dont enter. that refers me back to both the age of the cars and that some of you have talked yourself out of racing.

 

where i race the fast cars from around the country come race a couple times a year and wil and landon are as competitive as you could want. they both beat me just about every time.

[robbodleimages]

dave, so far as i know the s197's in cmc have all left. the directors knew that this rule adjustment would force them out and wanted that. the spec s197 rules being talked about are an attempt to build a cmc like class for the s197 cars to remain in without having to jump clear to american iron, where guys that feel like you do want them out as well.

 

me....i dont think i will run ai again ever.

 

To my knowledge, there were only (3) S197's in CMC in the entire nation, and two of them have dominated the Nationals for the last two years. So, why wouldn't they "attempt" to level the field, before it turns into another spec S197 class?

 

i watched the cmc race. i saw a tooth and nail fight between a 4th gen and the winning s197. had i been driving ferraro's car instead of chris, there would be no argument and the 4th gen would have won.

[D Algozine]

i dont really need to take a wider view. wil stukas crashed in the wet at the nationals with a legit chance to win. that he wrecked doesnt mean that the car wasnt competitive. further i saw the same car race dean martin fender to fender in december at road atlanta in a race where the entire nationals top 5 was in attendance.

Well there you have it, in 7 years, one car has come close...... ?? Besides, this is way off topic. Its become obvious that only the "real" fast racers choose new Mustangs............It is what it is, NASA promoted the new car, and they got it, in spades.

 

further. as i recall there were only 3 gm cars entered at the nationals. with one starting up front. you cant finish on the podium if you dont enter. that refers me back to both the age of the cars and that some of you have talked yourself out of racing.

And why were there only 3 GM cars.....? Let see, lets review the entire AI forum discussions for the last 6 years. I'm sure we may be able to find the reason why.

 

where i race the fast cars from around the country come race a couple times a year and wil and landon are as competitive as you could want. they both beat me just about every time.

Like i said, each region (individual) will very

[robbodleimages]

dave, feel how you want to. its a free country. the one car thing. it applies because there were only 3 cars in the race. the reason there were only 3 in the race was that the cars are OLD and because many who raced them in the past have convinced themselves the rules wont let them compete.

 

you seem convinced that you had no shot and so you didnt try. stukas on the contrary put some effort into his car, brings some talent and is a force for even dean martin to beat.

 

my view is that you are restricting yourself. i believe that ive seen wil post the same on these forums.

[firehawkclone]

We still care for AI is why we return to the forums.

 

This is a waste of time I'm afraid. The damage is done to AI, atleast with the veterans who seen what has been done. AI will rebound in the years to come, I hope!

 

Oh and yes apparently, Wil S. did well this year. Just like Tommy and Mike did in years past. I wasn't to bad myself in 2010.

 

For alot of us though, it's the shady rule changes and the bad decisions that really keep us away.

[robbodleimages]

ok...it was the shady business. onward and upward. have a nice day.

[D Algozine]

dave, feel how you want to. its a free country. the one car thing. it applies because there were only 3 cars in the race. the reason there were only 3 in the race was that the cars are OLD and because many who raced them in the past have convinced themselves the rules wont let them compete.

 

you seem convinced that you had no shot and so you didnt try. stukas on the contrary put some effort into his car, brings some talent and is a force for even dean martin to beat.

 

my view is that you are restricting yourself. i believe that ive seen wil post the same on these forums.

 

I'm only one, besides it's not about how I feel. It's not even about me personaly being able to complete. Look at the class. It's "mostly" very high end new Mustangs. Again, maybe thats the plan all along, but there has been a lot of turn over in the last few years. It's not make believe, many guys left. You can say we are all a bunch of whimps (p word is what I wanted to use). Maybe, we all are.

[robbodleimages]

what is your definition of "very high end"??

[firehawkclone]

ok...it was the shady business. onward and upward. have a nice day.

 

WOW!!!

[UBR]

Guys,

 

While I think the S197 Mustang is a superior starting platform, it is not the sole reason that AI has (and will continue to become) a predominately S197 Mustang series. Reality is ALL competitive GM cars and non-S197 cars are getting old. I pulled up Mustang and GM (Camaro/Firebird) production numbers since 1990. 5-10 years old seems to be the number I hear that people want to build a car from. Go back 10 years on the list and start at 2002. How many choices are there?

 

The arguement isn't that AI (or NASA) is pro-Mustang or anti-GM. Those of with older cars understand they take more work to be competitive with the only realistic car available the last 8 years. That isn't the rules fault. My Fox has been just as fast (or faster) than our S197 this past season. At nationals, I had terrible brake problems all week and was only 0.5 seconds off Robin Burnett's time in the dry. He was 5th. I know I was giving up at least a 1/2 second under braking. Not that I am a better racer than Robin, but in qualifying situations, I would have been close on lap times in a car 20 years older than his. The top 3 or 4 at nats were in a different league. And one of those was Wil in a non-S197.

 

Unless the new Camaro can be made competitive at a reasonable price AND GM and the aftermarket start producing race-level components, 10 years from now this will likely be a "new" Mustang series because there isn't another option.

 

Year- Mustang- GM

1990- 128,189- 35,048

1991- 98,737- 101,316

1992- 79,096- 70,712

1993- 114,228- 55,097

1994- 123,198- 171,457

1995- 165,037- 179,567

1996- 126,483- 93,526

1997- 100,254- 126,640

1998- 170,642- 110,172

1999- 126,067- 78,310

2000- 218,525- 76,999

2001- 0- 49,936

2002- 143,518- 65,428

2003- 128,101- 0

2004- 123,275- 0

2005- 160,412- 0

2006- 165,762- 0

2007- 108,896- 0

2008- 108,768- 0

2009- 46,420- 61,648 <- competitive?

2010- 47,524- 81,299 <- competitive?

Total- 2,483,132- 1,357,155

 

j

[D Algozine]

Guys,

 

While I think the S197 Mustang is a superior starting platform, it is not the sole reason that AI has (and will continue to become) a predominately S197 Mustang series. Reality is ALL competitive GM cars and non-S197 cars are getting old. I pulled up Mustang and GM (Camaro/Firebird) production numbers since 1990. 5-10 years old seems to be the number I hear that people want to build a car from. Go back 10 years on the list and start at 2002. How many choices are there?

 

The arguement isn't that AI (or NASA) is pro-Mustang or anti-GM. Those of with older cars understand they take more work to be competitive with the only realistic car available the last 8 years. That isn't the rules fault. My Fox has been just as fast (or faster) than our S197 this past season. At nationals, I had terrible brake problems all week and was only 0.5 seconds off Robin Burnett's time in the dry. He was 5th. I know I was giving up at least a 1/2 second under braking. Not that I am a better racer than Robin, but in qualifying situations, I would have been close on lap times in a car 20 years older than his. The top 3 or 4 at nats were in a different league. And one of those was Wil in a non-S197.

 

Unless the new Camaro can be made competitive at a reasonable price AND GM and the aftermarket start producing race-level components, 10 years from now this will likely be a "new" Mustang series because there isn't another option.

 

Year- Mustang- GM

1990- 128,189- 35,048

1991- 98,737- 101,316

1992- 79,096- 70,712

1993- 114,228- 55,097

1994- 123,198- 171,457

1995- 165,037- 179,567

1996- 126,483- 93,526

1997- 100,254- 126,640

1998- 170,642- 110,172

1999- 126,067- 78,310

2000- 218,525- 76,999

2001- 0- 49,936

2002- 143,518- 65,428

2003- 128,101- 0

2004- 123,275- 0

2005- 160,412- 0

2006- 165,762- 0

2007- 108,896- 0

2008- 108,768- 0

2009- 46,420- 61,648 <- competitive?

2010- 47,524- 81,299 <- competitive?

Total- 2,483,132- 1,357,155

 

j

 

Good info, but I don't understand the logic. Are you saying there aren't enough Fbodies available to make into race cars? Because there are thousands available at anytime. And the fbody can be made to be competitive, no agruement. But its not easy. And it's damn easy to pick up the phone and order a car from Ford, or others and write a huge check and be very competitive (that shouldn't have happened). Or order a few parts and install them yourself. Again, its not a bad thing to able to build a great car easily. But "they" should have left the big dollar components out of the equation. They should have fought hard to keep them out, instead of encourace them. Again perception. A great new Mustang could have still been built and still been highly competitve, but it pushed a lot of racers out the door. And made it easy to be very competitve by spending dollars. Great for Ford and big dollar pro shops. But a kick in the johnson to "most" single car garage guys. I thought AI was about being fast and being able to kick the ass of Porches and vetts, with a moderately built pony car, now it's just another spendy class like the rest of them.

Heres some more numbers....How many AI race cars were built from 1-2 year old production cars, pror to the arrival of S197? How many after the introduction of the S197? It used to be a huge deal to see a newer model year AI car 7 years ago. Now its the norm.

We always end up in the same place with these discussions. You know the definition of insanity is repeating the same action and expecting a different result.

Its about perception, its about rule modifictions over the years, it's the rules favoring bigger dollar builds. No, no one put a gun to anyones head, but reality doesn't lie. AI is mostly new Mustangs and many highly competitive and skilled racers have moved on. It's not a tragedy, but it does kind of suck. NASA promoted and encouraged the change and so here it is. Some think its great and some don't. But don't just say it was inevitable. It was promoted that way. Instead, it could have been much better managed or dare I say tempered.

[99cobra2881]

GM partially or to really stir it up wholly caused this, look at the gap. From 2002-2009 no new firebirds or new camaros were being built. No development coming out of the GM camp, and little to no aftermarket support.

 

Hell, even SLP who was a predominently GM aftermarket company jumped ship and started building exhaust systems for the mustang aftermarket. Adapt or die applied to SLP's situation, seems the same has happened here in AI.

 

If the mustang had been out of production all those years and GM performance had catered to the club racer much like Ford the situation would be reversed.

 

Does any of this do us any good? Not really but blaming the NASA powers that be isnt the answer either.

[robbodleimages]

Dave...the ai rules were so open that anyone could spend 100k and not max out ths rules. When the series grew in popularity u knew the guys with budget were going to show up. There was no rule against expensive shocks or carrying four sets of springs and scales to adjust with. Guys with money and a crew were going to come.

 

That said 7 years ago is 7 years ago. I paid the same dollar for my fr500c in feb that ipaid for my steeda 95 cobra r in 07 and didnt pay more than 30k either time. I am a small budget racer.