wheel weight determination and policing

[soundguydave1548534741]

That "Management Decision" was not from Texas. It was from all regional Directors. Thats my point. Its not a Texas decision, its a CMC Director decision.

 

Glenn,

 

The "Management Decision" that both Boudy (I too have had private conversations with Boudy) and I are talking about is the "Approval" of adding the Spacers to the weight of the wheel to meet the 18 lb rule.

 

It's not in the rules and was not voted on by the other Regions. Therefore, it came from Texas. Al F. in particular. You're the only Region that has approved this "Modification".

 

Is that clearer?

 

Sidney

 

 

And your wrong. All directors voted on the RCR about counting non attached spacers towards wheel weight. We all agreed based on a majority vote that if you wanted it to count towards wheel weight, attach it. It was decided there to count attached spacers towards wheel weight.

 

Why is this so hard for you to grasp? I can name names if it helps. I votes cast and only one was in favor of the RCR. Not all voted since 7 "no" votes was more than half. Done deal.

 

Yes, please. List the date this was voted on and by whom. List the vote count and which way each region voted on it. Also list the date the rules were revised to allow all competitors with access to the CCR to see this new rule revision.

 

Also please be clearer on your last sentence. "Votes cast and only one was in favor of the RCR. Not all voted since 7 "no" votes was more than half. Done deal." What exactly are you talking about? What was this vote for? 1 for and 7 against. What rule was this that was shot down?

 

Sorry that I seem to keep stirring this pot. Just think there is a lot of mis-information between the two sides of this debate and some of it needs better clarification.

 

Thanks,

 

Sidney

 

I should have not said I would name names. I will not do that. I have in the past and it was wrong. If those Directors want to say how they voted, let them.

The vote was for the RCR about counting wheel spacers as part of the wheel weight when they were not attached to the wheel. The RCR was rejected 7 to 1. Not all Directors voted since the 7 no's put it over the have way point. Majority rules. The result of the RCR in private emails and phone conferences was if the weight wants to be counted, it must be attached. That right there granted the permission to do it. Along w/ no limits in offset or construction that is in the rules.

 

From my POV, this can all just stop now. Al has said this area of the rules will be reviewed w/ or w/out an RCR being submitted from the CMC group.

If it was me, I wouldn't buy any wheels right now. There is just no way to tell how this will turn out in a couple months. Likely 1 of two things.... The rules will be more clear to allow whathas already been done, or the rule will be re-written to only allow 18lb or heavier wheels in an unmodified state. Pretty sure there will not be a 16lb weight and I'm pretty sure there will be no cost limit placed on wheels.

 

There has already been plenty of drama attached to this issue. It will get addressed. Your best bet is to talk to your regional rep's and make sure they know how you feel. They don't have to vote the way you want, but it helps them if they know how you feel. All Directors have a comon goal - presevation of the series. None of us wants it to die, much less while in our hands. The past of CMC must be protected as well as the future. That is a hard thing to balance.

 

This issue is a result of good intentions and not being to predict where racers would take and exploit the allowance. This is the very reason why we push back so much in other areas. We want to be sure we are not allowing areas to be made more gray and exploited.

 

Need to save this before it gets taken down....

[Al F.]

I doubt it will get taken down. lol

 

Read the 2013 rules directors cut thread. In there I described that the RCR requesting sepparate wheel spacers to be counted in the minimum weight was rejected so you would have to permanently attach the spacer(s) to the wheel if you wanted them to count as "wheel" with regards to weight. When we discussed this as a group of directors I guess nobody thought far enough ahead to realize that not stating as such in the rules would be so confusing. After all, custom wheels are legal. Any offset/backspace is legal. Lesson learned, it needs to be stated more clearly and will be in 2013.

[C6orGT]

As the person that was the closest to Aaron in two of the three races at Nationals here is my perspective of the situation. His wheels were deemed legal at the event so they were legal. Personally I don’t think they should be legal. I feel the rules should be changed to not allow custom wheels (one piece commercially available and under $400 per wheel) and the wheels should weigh above the minimum weight with no modifications allowed (to either decrease the weight or increase the weight). This will eliminate custom wheels (cost containment) and the need to modify wheels to create an 18 lb setup (potential safety issue and eliminating a competitive advantage).

 

Aaron absolutely had an advantage with the wheels he was using at 18 lbs. My wheels weigh 18.5 lbs with a 1.5 lb spacer on the rear wheels. 4 lbs of rotating mass on the rear wheels is a significant advantage. Rotating mass matters as Dave A. quoted from Enkei, "Every pound of unsprung weight savings has the effect of reducing overall vehicle weight by 20lbs.†So every competitor that doesn’t find wheels that are under 18 lbs and modifies them is giving up 80 lbs or more of overall vehicle weight in rotating mass(according to Enkei). Since last year I’ve had to drop 1.5mm in restrictor plate size because I’ve reduced rotating mass (wheels and driveshaft). That seems very significant to me but I’m just an engineering manager for a company that supplies elastomeric bearings for almost every helicopter main and tail rotor that’s in existence, what would I know about rotating mass and acceleration.

 

My options are to go buy 3 uber expensive set of rims to be exactly at 18 pounds with the correct offset. Find a reasonably priced wheel that weighs 16.5 lbs (if it exists for a GM vehicle) and permanently attach a spacer to it to weigh 18lbs. Machine 2 lbs off my current wheels and permanently attach a spacer to it to weigh 18 lbs (not so sure I would do this from a safety standpoint). Do nothing and be at a disadvantage. None of these options look all that good.

 

Aaron if you truly believe its 80 percent driver and 20 percent car I will personally bring a car for you to drive next year at nationals, I’m guessing you would say no because you would have very little chance to even podium. Aaron’s car was better prepared (by far) than any competitor at Nationals and he drove great. The weight of his wheels significantly contributed to his domination of the event (see below for my reasoning). Other items that contributed were rear gear, transmission gearing, RPM vs horsepower of his engine package, overall weight and the handling of his car. His car’s top speed was not that fast compared to his competitors. His car accelerated out of most of the turns significantly faster than everyone else’s. Great Job.

 

One thing I learned since Nationals this year about rotating mass is it matters in a major way. At Autobahn Country club last month I ran a best lap of 1:37.7 in Saturday’s race (19 lb wheels). In Sunday’s race I ran a best lap of 1:42.4 (25 lb wheels). That’s 4.7 seconds per lap slower, some of that can be contributed to the tire as well but certainly not 4.7 seconds. I believe that the weight of the wheels made a 3 second a lap difference in my example above, then with some simple math it can be concluded that the 2 lb difference in Aaron’s wheels, as compared to mine, would have made a 1.25 sec. difference in lap time at Miller. If you look at the lap times from Nationals no legal competitor was closer than 1.1 seconds per lap to Aaron in the six sessions he ran. Average lap differential was 1.67 sec per lap with the maximum being 2.1 sec per lap behind. If my logic is correct than the wheels contributed to 67% of the lap differential that was present at Nationals. If my logic is flawed than conservatively it could be argued that at least 50% of the lap differential at Nationals can be attributed to the weight differential of the wheels.

 

One last comment that I couldn’t pass on, Glenn please change your signature to just inferior driver since 2005 because as Aaron showed us while sandbagging most of the laps on Friday and Saturday you’re platform is not superior with the current rules.

 

Everyone go out and enjoy a weekend at the race track, no matter where you finish you should have fun and learn something about you and you’re car that you can use to go faster next time out.

[suck fumes1548534743]

If you're so convinced my wheels gave me almost 2 sec a lap why don't you let me drive your car back to back with you and then we can decide how much the car/wheels had to do with it. My car got out of the corners quicker because I could Mash the gas way before you guys cause it was stuck and cornered better, not because I had cheater wheels. A lot of exit speed comes from getting on the gas a lot sooner than your competitor not just because it has more power or because its geared better or whatever. When we built the car earlier this year we had one goal in mind....to win nationals. So it was practically built based off of how that track was laid out. Millers straight is about 250ft shorter than COTA'S and so I knew my gearing would be perfect cause I wanted to stay out of 5th gear. Being smooth also has a lot to do with it. While you were sliding your car around I was gliding through the corners saving my tires till the end. There's a lot more factors that contributed to our success that You should consider and I think it's just rediculous that you think a set of wheels will get me 2 sec a lap!

[suck fumes1548534743]

And I don't know how you can say I was sandbagging??? I drove my ass off every day! And the fact that you think your wheels at autobahn made you 4.7sec slower is comical! If you turn one time one day and are slower the next there are a TON of factors that can contribute to that. Weather and track conditions play a large role. We're you out on track the exact same time each day? Was the temperature the same both days? Were the tires identical on both sets of wheels? I've been on tracks a bunch where one day is 2 sec faster than the previous one with no factors on the car that changed. The only thing that changed was the track conditions.

[NASA13]

I think you should share your data for the rim experiments. It sounds eye opening, I would love to see that.

We've all moved to lighter wheels in many different cars and I've never heard 3 seconds a lap tossed around unless you changed to Hoosiers

I see a rematch brewing!

[C6orGT]

Aaron,

You should learn to read before posting. No where do I claim that you're wheels gained you 2 sec per lap. I do claim that they could have gained you 1 second per lap. I do also acknowledge that there were other factors as well, such as rear gear, transmission gearing, engine horsepower vs RPM, overall weight and the handling of the car. One thing I forgot to mention was you're obvious superior driving ability to the rest of us mere mortals.

I said you were sandbagging after watching you're video you posted showing after the first lap or two you were no longer downshifting into 2nd gear because you didn't need to. Don't be so defensive you and you're team did a fantastic job and made it look awful easy. The only way you weren't going to win was either mechanical failure or DQ.

[suck fumes1548534743]

Not trying to sound defensive I just get tired of people trying to come up with a reason as to why they got beat. You drove well also and I knew if you were in front it would be difficult to get around. I'm not trying to sound like an arrogant prick earlier I just get sick of people trying to claim my car was "spec miata prepped" and my wheels this my wheels that! My car was prepped the way a racecar should be prepped, a no excuses car.

Edited October 2, 2013 by Guest

[CMC#11]

This is just my opinion but there is no way a 7 lb / wheel difference in weight is equal to 1 second in lap time. I have never tested any of this for comparison sake but just from what I have seen from competitors during race driving and during test sessions.

 

I know Jeremiah had a set of FR500 replica's that weighed 25 lbs he ran in 2010 and was always "around" the same time as his "normal" wheels that weighed 20 lbs.

In 2011 Sam Crumpacker won his first race with the same 25 lb FR500 wheels on his car. This was with myself and Glenn right on his tail for 2nd and 3rd and we had 19/20 lb wheels.

 

Heck, James Procter even did a test session with 235/40/17's on his car to see the difference b/w the 235's and 275's and his lap times were only .5-.75 seconds / lap off.

Are you saying that wheel weight is more important than the extra grip gives from a 275 vs. 235 tire???

 

Don't get me wrong, clearly I feel a lighter wheel will give better performance, but I see it being a very small amount. The amount would be difficult to confirm due to the discrepancy in lap time over a session.

 

The reason guys like Aaron run 18 lb wheels is b/c they want to get that last 1/100th out of their car. Most people dial in their shocks or springs first b/c that is what is going to give them the most bang for the buck. If wheels were as important, guys would be running crap dampers with fancy custom wheels, and that is just not the case.

[CMC#11]

Derek, I think back to racing earlier this year at New Orleans when you came down to race with the TX guys. We had a great run and you won 2 races, I won 1, and James won 1 race.

You stated your wheels weigh 18.5 lbs and mine weigh 20 lbs. You had everyone covered for the weekend by about .25 seconds. Even if I had the 18.5 lb wheels, I don't think I would have been equal to you in lap time. The weight difference is going to have a small effect in acceleration but not much to do with cornering grip, where you were getting me all weekend.

[D Algozine]

This is just my opinion but there is no way a 7 lb / wheel difference in weight is equal to 1 second in lap time. I have never tested any of this for comparison sake but just from what I have seen from competitors during race driving and during test sessions

 

Depends on the track. Probably not as significant as an advantage at most of the midwest "go-kart" type tracks, but on a high speed 15 corner 3+ mile track, it would most certainly show up in lap times.

The advantage is under sustained acceleration. Not as significant under braking or cornering.

[cozog1548534733]

I don't know about other regions but even a .3 sec/lap advantage will mean the difference between P1 and P4 ( or lower) during a 20 lap race in GL/MW regions. 6 seconds over an entire race is a HUGE advantage. We have 3-4 drivers running consistent laps within a couple tenths each weekend. More drivers will be closing in on top guys the more laps they run (I.e. experience).

[cozog1548534733]

I don't know about other regions but even a .3 sec/lap advantage will mean the difference between P1 and P4 ( or lower) during a 20 lap race in GL/MW regions. 6 seconds over an entire race is a HUGE advantage. We have 3-4 drivers running consistent laps within a couple tenths each weekend. More drivers will be closing in on top guys the more laps they run (I.e. experience).

[rsmith350]

I don't know about other regions but even a .3 sec/lap advantage will mean the difference between P1 and P4 ( or lower) during a 20 lap race in GL/MW regions. 6 seconds over an entire race is a HUGE advantage. We have 3-4 drivers running consistent laps within a couple tenths each weekend. More drivers will be closing in on top guys the more laps they run (I.e. experience).

sounds like one of y'all needs to go buy custom light weight wheels! Championship!! Yeah ya!! Maybe you could split it between a couple guys and you can take turns winning!

Oops sorry......a sense of humor might not be appreciated in this serious a thread......

[suck fumes1548534743]

LOL!!!!!!!!!!

[ls168camaro]

 

I’m just an engineering manager for a company that supplies elastomeric bearings for almost every helicopter main and tail rotor that’s in existence, what would I know about rotating mass and acceleration.

 

One thing I learned since Nationals this year about rotating mass is it matters in a major way. At Autobahn Country club last month I ran a best lap of 1:37.7 in Saturday’s race (19 lb wheels). In Sunday’s race I ran a best lap of 1:42.4 (25 lb wheels). That’s 4.7 seconds per lap slower, some of that can be contributed to the tire as well but certainly not 4.7 seconds. I believe that the weight of the wheels made a 3 second a lap difference in my example above, then with some simple math it can be concluded that the 2 lb difference in Aaron’s wheels, as compared to mine, would have made a 1.25 sec. difference in lap time at Miller. If you look at the lap times from Nationals no legal competitor was closer than 1.1 seconds per lap to Aaron in the six sessions he ran. Average lap differential was 1.67 sec per lap with the maximum being 2.1 sec per lap behind. If my logic is correct than the wheels contributed to 67% of the lap differential that was present at Nationals. If my logic is flawed than conservatively it could be argued that at least 50% of the lap differential at Nationals can be attributed to the weight differential of the wheels.

 

quote]

Why do you believe the weight of the 25 lb wheels made up a 3 second difference? How do you know the tires didn't make a 3 second difference instead of a 1.7 second difference? What other variables changed from Saturday to Sunday? Temps, pressures, alignments, hangover, traffic, etc.

 

Now my logic tells me that I should stay out of helicopters.

[C6orGT]

Nasa13, there wasn’t much of a match the first time so I don’t know if there is a 2nd time if it could be called a rematch.

[C6orGT]

Michael, I’m not saying wheel/tire weight is more important than width but wheel and tire weight is almost as important as width for our tire/wheel/horsepower rule set. As you stated Procter’s lap times were only .5 to .75 seconds slower per lap with the 235 vs 275 tire. The way you stated it you thought it would have been more. Wheel/tire weight matter. Why do you think the S197’s were hardly affected by the reduction in tire size last year (less rotating mass faster acceleration, I think Ferraro went faster at Nationals on the smaller tire than he did the year before on the wider tire)? Yea, I know there are other factors that can potentially explain that. What are we doing for the majority of a lap? Foot to the floor accelerating.

At the same Autobahn event I referenced earlier, on Sunday Kent was running 235 tires as his rains on a dry track. His fast lap was 1.3 seconds faster than my fast lap and 1 second faster than anyone else’s fast lap (everyone else was on wider tires). In this example you could conclude that the narrower/lighter package was faster.

Yes at NOLA I won 2 races and was slightly faster (0.2 sec) on fast lap for the weekend. Two of the races I didn’t have fast lap. One of the races I won was an invert and I was in second by turn 5 of lap 1 (got through traffic really good). The other race I won I made the right selection as far as lane choice for the start and you got picked by a slow starting AI car otherwise you would have gotten the lead and it would have been extremely difficult for me to have gotten around you. Yes, I was beating you through the corners. Coming on the front straight I had corner exit speed on you and you would pull me 4-5 car lengths by the end of the straight (that’s what 300 lbs difference in weight will do). If you gave me a choice of your car or mine for this past year rule set I would take yours. I’d get it a little faster through the turns and no legal GM vehicle would touch it.

I’ve sent you a PM.

[C6orGT]

Bryan L., I’ve met a lot of the people on this forum in CMC. You I have not so I only now you from what you’ve posted over the past 2+ years. I’ll state this as nice as I can and I’m not just commenting on your most recent post. You have a lot of opportunity to grow as a person.