07' rule questions.... clarifications....

[Pure Energy]

What about non metallic suspension bushings?

[GAC]

What about non metallic suspension bushings?

 

Free Blair. Read the free mods list more closely.

[Pure Energy]

What about non metallic suspension bushings?

 

Free Blair. Read the free mods list more closely.

 

Oops I missed that one.

[Eric J.]

Finally got a chance to look at the rules. First, thanks much to Greg and everyone who worked on this for the effort involved. Clearly a lot of time went into this. Some of the changes are welcome, and some, like the tire thing, are gonna generate some discussion for a while yet.

 

In 10.1 the opportunity to use a log-book system is provided to those with a NASA National TT license. I'm assuming that this opportunity will also be afforded to those of us competing in TT with a NASA competition license? The wording in 10.1 is pretty tight about it being a TT license, so I'm just asking for clarification.

[zuperdave]

In 10.1 the opportunity to use a log-book system is provided to those with a NASA National TT license. I'm assuming that this opportunity will also be afforded to those of us competing in TT with a NASA competition license? The wording in 10.1 is pretty tight about it being a TT license, so I'm just asking for clarification.

I think a log book is going to be required, not an "opportunity." Let's hope Tech gets on the same page vis a vis TTers showing up with log books instead of School/HPDE Tech forms.

[Greg G.]

Does the "freebie" for radio removal inlcude all component parts (head unit, amp, speakers)?

 

Any charge for removing the OBC on my car (don't need the weight is nominal, but I can get decent money for it!!!!) It's the same size as the head unit.

 

Does the point for removing the trunk carpet allow me to gut the trunk (there's some other plastic crap in there)?

 

Yes to the stereo components.

What is an OBC?

Yes to the trunk plastic.

[Greg G.]

clarification about fuel pump #25

Non-OEM or modified carburetor, fuel rail, fuel injectors, fuel pump and/or fuel pressure regulator +2 (no points for fuel pump along if using OEM fuel and timing maps, sensor inputs and ignition timing).

 

The part about no points, does that mean I have to be using all 3 of those things in order to be charged 2 points? E.g. Fuel and timing maps, ignition timing are modified but snesor inputs are not, will this result in +2?

 

Thanks greg.

 

It means what it says. "(no points for fuel pump alone if using OEM fuel and timing maps, sensor inputs and ignition timing)" If you are not using OEM fuel and timing maps, OEM sensors and sensor inputs, and OEM ignition timing, and you have a non-OEM or modified fuel pump, you take the two points. So, your example is correct--+2

 

 

 

sdf

[Greg G.]

Why is relocating the battery +1 if ballast is free?

 

I think the +1 assessment made sense with last year's 30lb limit ballast rule because relocating a 40lb battery exceeds the 30lb limit. However, now that 150lbs of ballast is free, I think NASA should reconsider the logic behind the +1 assessment.

 

By relocating the battery, you are essentially adding 10lbs of ballast to the middle of the car and 40lbs to the rear of the car. All of this would be free of charge if it were made of steel instead of copper and lead.

 

Can NASA reconsider this point assessment or explain the difference?

 

Frank D.

 

The difference is that you need to have a battery in the car. You don't need to have 30 extra pounds of ballast weighing you down that is a trade off in exchange for better balance. Granted, if using the alternate method, it is possible to remove the weight somewhere else, and then add the ballast. It was discussed whether to remove this modification as an assessment, and I got overruled (I wanted to remove it). I suggest that if you don't like the 1 point, then move the battery back and go for the no-points lightweight battery instead, and add the ballast in place of the battery. Or, just forget about it, because it's just one point.

[Greg G.]

Hi there, I've got a couple of questions too:

 

The first is about #7 under the suspension rules. It states 'Replace or modify control arms (other than plates, shims, slots, or eccentric bolt/busings for simple camber/caster adjustment only).

My car like many other japanese cars has wishbone suspension and can only get camber adjustment through aftermarket upper control arms. I know camber is free this year so am I adding these 4 points for my control arms which adjust my camber?

 

My second question is about my aftermarket differential. The 350Z has many different models, all of which are in the same base class. Some come with LSD's and some do not. Mine does not. Do I have to go with rule #35 Added limited slip differential +3, or #36 Changed or modified limited slip differential (or welded/locked OEM LSD) +1. My clutch diff is in the OEM housing assembly.

 

thanks Greg, the rules look great!

 

Yes, unfortunately, you are still adding the 4 points for changing the control arms. This was also discussed, and it was felt that there is too much of a "slippery slope" if actually changing the arms for free is allowed. The new wording will allow most cars to gain free camber by shimming or slotting the contol arm attachment points or some other method such as eccentric bushings.

 

Technically, all of the 350Z's that are not listed separately (Track, GT, Anniversary) must take +3 for LSD, since the base model didn't have one. I'm considering a waiver for the 350Z on LSD's, and running it past NASA for input. I agree with the argument that the 350Z's all really have LSD's, and that the base model for this high performance, high base class car, was a low-ball attempt by the manufacturer to sell more cars. I'll let you know what happens with this.

[Greg G.]

Ok, just to make sure I got 2 things right, please answer me this:

 

I have a set of BuddyClub Coilovers (retail for $1995, so under $650 each). They are only 1 way adjustable.

 

Does that mean I get +3 for the struts and +2 for the springs? That it?

 

I also have a different front lip on the car. It really has no aero purpose to it, although kinda looks like a splitter. It sticks out no more than 2" from the furthest. Is that only a +1 splitter modification point?

 

Thanks!

 

Yes on the +3 for struts and + 2 for springs. Yes on the +1 for the kinda-splitter.

[Greg G.]

Greg,

Does the competition wieght in TT U,S,R and ST1, ST2 include the driver??? In the grid box for the +/- adjustments it doesn't stipulate.....Later in some description it says including drivers wieght......Clarification please, I know you probably wont answer since you are racing (lucky dog)

 

Yes, the competition weight for all cars in TT/PT/ST now includes driver. This includes the competition weight I need to be given by those that need re-classification due to engine swaps/aftermarket turbos, etc.

[Greg G.]

Ok, just to make sure I got 2 things right, please answer me this:

 

I have a set of BuddyClub Coilovers (retail for $1995, so under $650 each). They are only 1 way adjustable.

 

Does that mean I get +3 for the struts and +2 for the springs? That it?

Ditto for Tokiko Illumina 5-way adjustable coilovers: +3 for the struts, plus separate +2 for the springs is the way I read it.

 

Correct.

[Greg G.]

Camber plates are now free too?

 

Yes.

[Greg G.]

Ok Greg , I have a question also . This year I was told you use 3450lbs as the OEM wt. of on 06 Mustang GT . I had my car checked by the NASA scales , and it came in at 3400lbs . That is without spair and jack, rear carpet , no cat. converters and dot slicks and a 1/2 tank of fuel. which seams to be right . I might be reading somthing wrong but it looks like you ar now using 3356 as the OEM wt. for 07 rules

Whats Up .My car didn't lose 94lbs sitting in my shop waiting for Febuary. I think this causes a problem as these numbers are not correct . I think we need to start off with some correct numbers . I think these might be the wts for the 6 cyc. base model .The power to wt. is 11.5:1 not 11:1 .

Thanks for checking into this .

 

Edmunds has the '07 V8 GT listed at 3356 lbs and the V6 listed at 3352 lbs. Ford apparently doesn't find curb weights to be important enough to list in the car specifications on their website. So, while it's possible that your car was incorrectly hit with a lower wt/power ratio. It will also now have a lower weight to use for weight reduction using the alternate method. If you have more accurate data and sources, please send them to me by e-mail. Thanks.

[Greg G.]

per TT rules at 6.4.1

ROLL BARS/CAGES:

"A 4-point roll bar or basic 6-point roll cage constructed per the NASA CCR’s may be added without a TT modification point’s assessment. A transverse horizontal bar at or under the dashboard is also permitted without assessment."

 

per NASA CCR's

"15.6.12 Door Bars / Side Impact Protection

At least one (1) door bar on driver side and one (1) on the passenger side must be used.

At least two (2) door bars on the driver side and one (1) door bar on the passenger side must be installed in all vehicles that obtain a new logbook after January 1st, 2007."

 

Be sure to note CCR's at 15.6.22: a seatback brace may be required irrespective of whether a roll bar or cage is installed.

 

It seems to me that an exception to the 2 side door bar rule applicble to roll cages should be allowed for TT competition, particularly since TT does not require any cage. If the purpose is to encourage the installation of safety equipment such as roll bars, requiring 2 side door bars seems contrary to that goal.

 

I'm not sure how you intepretted 15.6.22 as stating that a seatback brace may be needed without a roll bar or cage installed. 11.4.12 governs seat in TT. I suppose that the two door bar rule is a question for TT anyway, since TT cars do not have to get a race logbook. It is clear that by 2011, all cars with cages will require the two driver side door bars, though.

[Greg G.]

If I install an aftermarket MAF that is calibrated for my aftermarket fuel injectors, do I have to take the +1 for "altered sensor inputs"? I have no idea what a "voltage clamp" is, but I don't think an off-the-shelf MAF has that. I would already be taking the +2 for non-OEM fuel injectors.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Frank D.

 

Yes, you do have to take the +1 for altered sensor inputs with an aftermarket MAF sensor.

[Greg G.]

What is the process on cars with aftermarket turbos? Since I'm running a larger turbo on the 1.8T it needs to be dyno'd this year for the first time. So the car goes to the dyno and lets say it pulls 250WHP instead of its OEM 150HP. Then it's given a new base class, correct? Then all other mods are added to the base class to detemine the final class?

 

Is there any guidelines such as a hp/wt ratio or anything that can be used to see before hand where a car might end up classed? I'd like to keep it in TTD again this year.

 

Send me an e-mail with car specifics, and competition weight, and I can work with you on your hp output options.

[Greg G.]

I cannot find where the rules stipulate that the points needed to make the power or weight are no longer assessed although Greg said it several times on this forum. Unfortunately his post on this forum is not an official rule.

 

Once a new base class is assigned for one of these cars, it takes into account the engine mods and weight. No further changes to either of those parameters is permitted (without re-evaluation), so there are no points assessed by default. However, you are correct that it would have been nice to have stated that outright somewhere in the rules--sorry.

 

We elected not to put the base classing system into the Rules. It started out in the Rules, but is somewhat complicated, and would only lead to more questions than answers. We do have a table of wt/power ratios that we will start with in classing swaps, aftermarket FI etc. Then, the class gets adjusted for AWD/FWD, overall weight, engine location, and if it has good OEM aero, suspension, chassis, etc. So, as I stated above, the best way for those of you to make plans is to send me your car model and desired competition weight (if you know it), and I'll help you with the power options for the various class levels that will correspond. I need to know your competition weight, because overall weight is a factor that must be accounted for to ensure that cars are classed correctly, and using the correct "base tire size".

[Greg G.]

Finally got a chance to look at the rules. First, thanks much to Greg and everyone who worked on this for the effort involved. Clearly a lot of time went into this. Some of the changes are welcome, and some, like the tire thing, are gonna generate some discussion for a while yet.

 

In 10.1 the opportunity to use a log-book system is provided to those with a NASA National TT license. I'm assuming that this opportunity will also be afforded to those of us competing in TT with a NASA competition license? The wording in 10.1 is pretty tight about it being a TT license, so I'm just asking for clarification.

 

Absolutely. TT license and Competition license are synonomous in this sense. In fact, in TT, they are considered equal, with no benefit of having one over the other.

[Greg G.]

In 10.1 the opportunity to use a log-book system is provided to those with a NASA National TT license. I'm assuming that this opportunity will also be afforded to those of us competing in TT with a NASA competition license? The wording in 10.1 is pretty tight about it being a TT license, so I'm just asking for clarification.

I think a log book is going to be required, not an "opportunity." Let's hope Tech gets on the same page vis a vis TTers showing up with log books instead of School/HPDE Tech forms.

 

I would certainly like to see all TT drivers with log books. But, except at the Championships, it's still too difficult logistically to require them, with all of the drivers that come into TT for short periods of time.

[Valhakar]

I LOVE this idea. We have a driver log book for HPDE 1-4. Why not continue that? Fact is I would like to see tech/spec notes in HPDE books for drivers that shows proper maintenance at least. At the very least a once a year classing clarification so the up and coming drivers know about where they stand.

 

Perhaps make it an optional "$20" track side assessment where HPDE 3 and above drivers can come in, get weighed, and start the splitting of hairs early so they so not hit TT with a car in a class they are just not ready for.

[cosm3os]

Yes to the stereo components.

What is an OBC?

Yes to the trunk plastic.

 

Its the on board computer in the center stack, its the size of the head unit and displays mileage, warnings, temp, time, etc.

 

Thanks,

[cosm3os]

Camber plates are now free too?

 

Yes.

 

Greg, on my 98 M3 I have swapped the front strut hats. They are offset, so swapping them side to side gives additional camber. Of course, it's not adjustable. Since camber plates are free, I assume this "mod" is free.

 

Thanks

[kbrew8991]

I bet if all it provides is more camber/caster, and doesn't adjust ride height, strut height, or anything whacky like that..... that its ok

 

thats my reading of the rules anyway

[IS300]

Greg:

 

I am coming to NASA from SCCA and looking at the shock rule it is using price for point classification.

 

I have double adjustable Koni's that are less than $600 a piece, so does that mean I only take the 3 point hit?

 

Also, wheel soze is free? Based on tire size if I am correct so, I take the tire size points, but wheels size is free.

 

Thanks, looking forward to running some time trials

 

Chris Kline