Jan in Omaha Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 Does that mean that if your shocks/spring perches aren't threaded that you need to take +1 for a threaded coilover setup in addition to the +3 for shocks and +2 for springs? I only ask because its the difference between TTF and TTE for the changes I'm planning... I might have to not do one of the mods I'd like to edit: also, would a shock that has compression, rebound and height adjustment count as a double or triple adjustable shock? No, you can add a "coilover kit" for no points. It really applies to the inverted struts. "Standard" compression and rebound adjustments would be two ranges of adjustment. Height adjustment is free. Three ranges of adjustment means that there is (usually) compression, and both high and low rebound adjustment ranges, or rebound and high and low compression adjustments ranges. That's the way I was interpeting it when I just saw the ride height (#13)under the no points mods. Now I have one (or two if I undo one mod) points left to spend!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 No, you can add a "coilover kit" for no points. It really applies to the inverted struts. "Standard" compression and rebound adjustments would be two ranges of adjustment. Height adjustment is free. Three ranges of adjustment means that there is (usually) compression, and both high and low rebound adjustment ranges, or rebound and high and low compression adjustments ranges. thanks Greg I wanted to make sure I didn't get any unpleasant surprizes at the 2007 Nationals or anything like that. thats almost exactly what I wanted to know/hear Would that +1 discussed above apply to switching from a monotube to twin-tube design or vice versa? or are you looking to only hit someone with a +1 for REEAALLY switching things around? thanks!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shawn M. Posted January 31, 2007 Author Members Share Posted January 31, 2007 Would that +1 discussed above apply to switching from a monotube to twin-tube design or vice versa? or are you looking to only hit someone with a +1 for REEAALLY switching things around? thanks!! Are you kidding me? He wants to hit you with the points for even thinking about it! Admit nothing!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 <-- plays by the rules, even if he doesn't always agree with them being a generally nice, honest guy and all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shawn M. Posted February 1, 2007 Author Members Share Posted February 1, 2007 <-- plays by the rules, even if he doesn't always agree with them being a generally nice, honest guy and all No, im just saying dont admit to thinking about anything or he will make you take the points for it. Sarcasm is hard to express in a forum sometimes..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 I see on page 22 (Suspension Section) that line 10 reads: changing the orientation/design of the OEM shock and/or spring perch (example: inverting them) +1 How about this - a newer mod for 90-97 Miatas is to replace the OEM shock mounts with ones similar to the 99+ units (slightly enhanced design). This supposedly improves handling a little bit and helps keep the rear of the car off the bumpstops. Here is a link to some info on one type from Fat Cat Motorsports: http://www.fatcatmotorsports.com/FCMmounts.htm Would this be +1 or not? It doesn't change the OEM orientation or design, just is a slight improvement to the OEM design (kind of a gray area...). - Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted February 1, 2007 National Staff Share Posted February 1, 2007 I suppose they would be ok. They are really a combo of a bunch of potential points assessments, but should get by for free as long as one is already taking points for shocks and springs (ride height adjustment, shock travel, suspension bushings, spring height, and even potentially altered suspension mounting points). Since there is no lateral movement of shock location, and only really a ride height and shock travel adjustment, I would not assess points for altered suspension mounting points. The other items are either already free, or free with shocks and springs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Yup - already taking shocks and springs points. Thanks for the clarification Greg! I'm like KBrew, I try to be honest and clarify things when I'm in doubt. Unfortunately for Greg...I'm in doubt...alot! - Markus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 looks like you can stretch those 5 coilover points a decent ways Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosm3os Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 Hopefully my last clarification. The 95 M3s have different front control arms than the 96-98 and, accordingly, they have a different bushing--the 95 is offset, the 96-98 are centered. I am considering using a 95 offset bushing on my 98 which has the effect of adding some caster. It is not adjustable (but I do have camber/caster plates). Is this allowed as a free contril arm modification under #7 "(other than plates, shims, slots, or eccentric bolts/bushings for simple camber/caster adjustment only)"? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shawn M. Posted February 7, 2007 Author Members Share Posted February 7, 2007 Yup - already taking shocks and springs points. Thanks for the clarification Greg! I'm like KBrew, I try to be honest and clarify things when I'm in doubt. Unfortunately for Greg...I'm in doubt...alot! - Markus I always look closer at those who profess to be "honest". Like the criminals on COPS always saying, "Im not gonna lie to you". OH! Ill be notifying your local TT director.... (and a cash payment as well...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted February 8, 2007 National Staff Share Posted February 8, 2007 Hopefully my last clarification. The 95 M3s have different front control arms than the 96-98 and, accordingly, they have a different bushing--the 95 is offset, the 96-98 are centered. I am considering using a 95 offset bushing on my 98 which has the effect of adding some caster. It is not adjustable (but I do have camber/caster plates). Is this allowed as a free contril arm modification under #7 "(other than plates, shims, slots, or eccentric bolts/bushings for simple camber/caster adjustment only)"? Thanks Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Here's another random question: The OEM crank pulley for the Miata comes with two belt grooves, the outer one being for air conditioning and power steering. Since I'm using neither of those, I am interested in shaving off that outer groove. I think this would be 0 points (classified under alternative weight reduction). The only close option I see is +1 point replacement pulley. The "theory" behind this - underdrive pulleys supposedly give more power by decreasing rotational weight and underdriving accessories, the downside is they aren't dampened so they increase crankshaft vibrations. They also cost money. So instead of buying a pulley, I would just try to "liberate" some weight off my OEM unit and get less of the benefits, but hopefully still some of the benefits nonetheless, without the risk. Let me know if you have any q's or need any more info on this.... - Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted February 16, 2007 National Staff Share Posted February 16, 2007 Here's another random question: The OEM crank pulley for the Miata comes with two belt grooves, the outer one being for air conditioning and power steering. Since I'm using neither of those, I am interested in shaving off that outer groove. I think this would be 0 points (classified under alternative weight reduction). The only close option I see is +1 point replacement pulley. The "theory" behind this - underdrive pulleys supposedly give more power by decreasing rotational weight and underdriving accessories, the downside is they aren't dampened so they increase crankshaft vibrations. They also cost money. So instead of buying a pulley, I would just try to "liberate" some weight off my OEM unit and get less of the benefits, but hopefully still some of the benefits nonetheless, without the risk. Let me know if you have any q's or need any more info on this.... - Mark +1 point for replacement pulley--Shaving off parts of the pulley is no different than getting a lightened replacement pulley (well, it's ghetto, but the function is the same ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shawn M. Posted February 16, 2007 Author Members Share Posted February 16, 2007 +1 point for replacement pulley--Shaving off parts of the pulley is no different than getting a lightened replacement pulley (well, it's ghetto, but the function is the same ) Cue Elvis! In the GHETTO..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berny2435 Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 (edited) so I just classed my car using the TTA-TTF Form. Unforunetely I don't like the results too much for this years planned modifications.. . 95 Civic cpe with Motor Swap - K20A2 6spd motor from 2004 Acura RSX-S Dyno - 206whp and 156trq on Dynojet. I've added up a possible 77 points through paperwork but some of my modifications are still To Be Determined.. . 77 would put me in TTC. There is a possibility that I could leave things off or not do certain things and I could be classed in TTD with only 57 points accrued but that levees on the following questions.. . Question on points for correctly classing my car Tires - If I were to choose to run a 200 UTQG tire, I don't have to take any tire points except for upsize from BASE class correct? This question leads into the Following Q12, Q15, Q22-Q24 on the form - Does NON-OEM also mean "If your car didn't come with that option that model year, then it is a “NON-OEM" upgrade or does this basically infer that you have to use a HONDA OEM part for a HONDA car? suspension/Brakes/chasis Q12.)Changing the orientation or design of an OEM mounting point or pick-up point of a control arm for a panhard bar or trailing arms +1I have 94+ Acura Integra rear trailing arms. Is this a +1 point even though it is from another Honda/Acura. I'm not changing the bolting location, just swapping arms. This relays to Q22 - Q24) I currently have 4 Non-stock 95 civic components, RTA, font and Rear Brakes and rear LCA. These parts are all from an Integra.. . Do I take all these points Q22.)Non-OEM rear trailing arms (for stiffness only, nochange in suspension mount or pick-up points from stock) +1 They are Acura Integra Q23.)Non-OEM rear control arms on FWD vehicles (For stiffness and wheel alignment only, no change in suspension mount or pick-up points from stock) +1 They are OEM - Acura Integra Q24.)Non- OEM brake calipers+1They are OEM - Just Acura ITR fronts and GSR rears Q15.) If I replace my steering rack from a stock PS rack to a non PS rack from same year Civic or to a PS rack from an Acura Integra, do I take this +2 points? Haven't done this but might Thank you for all your help!! Edited February 16, 2007 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 +1 point for replacement pulley--Shaving off parts of the pulley is no different than getting a lightened replacement pulley (well, it's ghetto, but the function is the same ) Technically - typical replacement pulleys get their benefits from reduced weight and by underdriving accessory belts. Since this is only reducing weight, I think it should be only +0.5 points. Sound good? - Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 +1 point for replacement pulley--Shaving off parts of the pulley is no different than getting a lightened replacement pulley (well, it's ghetto, but the function is the same ) Technically - typical replacement pulleys get their benefits from reduced weight and by underdriving accessory belts. Since this is only reducing weight, I think it should be only +0.5 points. Sound good? - Mark unless you can find another 0.5 point mod, the end result is the same... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Tires - If I were to choose to run a 200 UTQG tire, I don't have to take any tire points except for upsize from BASE class correct? correct Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted February 16, 2007 National Staff Share Posted February 16, 2007 so I just classed my car. Unforunetely I don't like the results too much for this years planned modifications.. . 95 Civic cpe with Motor Swap - K20A2 6spd motor from 2004 Acura RSX-S Dyno - 206whp and 156trq on Dynojet. I've added up a possible 77 points through paperwork but some of my modifications are still To Be Determined.. . 77 would put me in TTC. There is a possibility that I could leave things off or not do certain things and I could be classed in TTD with only 57 points accrued but that levees on the following questions.. . Question on points for correctly classing my car Tires - If I were to choose to run a 200 UTQG tire, I don't have to take any tire points except for upsize from BASE class correct? This question leads into the Following Q12, Q15, Q22-Q24 - Does NON-OEM also mean "If your car didn't come with that option that year, then it is a “NON-OEM" upgrade or does this basically infer that you have to use a HONDA OEM part for a HONDA car? Q12.)I have 94+ Acura Integra rear trailing arms. Is this a +1 point even though it is from another Honda/Acura. I'm not changing the bolting location, just swapping arms. This relays to Q22 - Q24) Q22-Q24.) I currently have 4 Non-stock 95 civic components, RTA, font and Rear Brakes and rear LCA. These parts are all from an Integra.. . Do I take all these points Q15.) If I replace my steering rack from a stock PS rack to a non PS rack from same year Civic or to a PS rack from an Acura Integra, do I take this +2 points? Thank you for all your help!! First, how did you class the car without getting a new base class for the motor swap (or did you)? Second: 6.1 General Car Classification Cars may be upclassed as defined below in Section 6.4 based on vehicle modifications. All factory options and other modifications by the factory that are not included in the basic trim package of a model (or in the non-basic trim package specifically listed below in 6.3.2 to assign a TT base class), must be assessed modification points as in Section 6.4. 6.5 OEM Definition, Updating and Backdating Rules For the purposes of NASA TT points assessments, the term OEM will be defined as follows: Any part that is identical in size, shape, and functional characteristics compared to the part that originally came on the vehicle, from the manufacturer, as a standard feature of the base model as it is listed in section 6.3.2 Base Classifications (factory options and specialty model parts are considered non-OEM) or is listed as a standard replacement part by the OEM manufacturer. Some parts that are produced by aftermarket manufacturers as generic replacement parts may not require a points assessment provided that: they are the same size and shape, and have the same functional characteristics as the OEM part, and that they provide no significant improvement in performance, longevity, or reliability. If it is determined in impound that such a part does not meet the above description, the driver may be disqualified. Consultation with the Regional TT Director prior to competition is advised for any driver using a vehicle with replacement parts that fall under this exception. All factory optional parts, upgrades, and vehicle specifications must be assessed points, unless they legally fall under the updating/backdating rule or are on the list of No-Points Modifications. Base classifications are for the standard base trim model of a vehicle, without factory options or upgrades, unless there is a specific TT base classification listing in 6.3.2 for a non-base trim model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berny2435 Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Okay, thanks for pointing those out. I'm still kinda up in the air on this OEM thing though. No, I have not submitted my motor swap for classification yet. I'm trying to determine if it is even worth entering b/c of the MASS of point I can and could accumalate with my cars features... . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted February 16, 2007 National Staff Share Posted February 16, 2007 Okay, thanks for pointing those out. I'm still kinda up in the air on this OEM thing though. No, I have not submitted my motor swap for classification yet. I'm trying to determine if it is even worth entering.. . It will be worth entering if you want to have fun. Your car sounds like an H1 type car based on power and weight. Those are TTB and TTA cars, both by class, and by lap time with decent drivers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berny2435 Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 (edited) I guess it is up to you guys, NASA TT officials, to determine if the ACURA parts on my car are a benefit above and beyond the Stock Civic parts. The Acura Rear Trailing Arm is different than the Stock 95 Civic EX RTA b/c it allows the use of rear disk brakes instead of drums. I don't think I could get away with not running upgraded brakes in the rear, but if I have to take the points for NON-OEM calipers, I might as well leave the fronts on too.. . So from this I am assuming that I have to take Q22 and Q24 Q23 - I don't think there is much of a difference or at all in the RCA b/t integra/Civic.. . I'll have to check that Edited February 16, 2007 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berny2435 Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 (edited) Okay, thanks for pointing those out. I'm still kinda up in the air on this OEM thing though. No, I have not submitted my motor swap for classification yet. I'm trying to determine if it is even worth entering.. . It will be worth entering if you want to have fun. Your car sounds like an H1 type car based on power and weight. Those are TTB and TTA cars, both by class, and by lap time with decent drivers. Yes, my car is basically an H1 honda challenge car but not there as far as safety and a few things I would like done to it. At the end of the year, I could basically have an approved NASA legal race car for H1. But I, as a driver, will not have the licensing taken care of to compete. I will be able to compete in TT before HC obviously.. . Edited February 16, 2007 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted February 16, 2007 National Staff Share Posted February 16, 2007 Then you should expect the car to end up classing out to TTB or TTA. That is where all of the other H1 cars that I have seen class out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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