LS-1 in a Mustang rumor?

[Pat L.]

Guys, very interesting read for me. Yes, I'm the a-hole that ruined AI for a few of you... you have my permission to kick my nuts in efigy. And I'm sorry for not coming clean earlier, but the car wasn't on track yet and we were unsure if it'd be ready to compete.

 

Anyways, back to the discussion: May I suggest that a couple of you read through the entire thread since I think there is some useful discussion in it and I don't want to start my umteenth post about how we're on the bottom of the slippery slope and not the top - the day Fords got Chevy rear suspensions and front control arms was a lot more important than the day a Ford made the exact same power with a different mill. The powers at be are most definitely on top of the situation. Peder asked some good, direct questions about the power output and how we ensured our power compliance. I am open to further questions from the powers at be as well as other competitors and I am obviously VERY open to proving compliance if I finish well enough in future events to be taken to the dyno.

 

As far as the fans my abortion of a car will alienate... Some will love it and some will hate it, I guess that's about the same ratio that will love/hate any other GM or Ford running in the field. That's why I painted mine so bright - they can get their beer cans ready for a good toss

 

Also, am I mistaken or were the Pratt & Miller rigs and the Ford Racing rigs absent at our last few events? No, not in attendance? Hmmm...

Edited May 8, 2007 by Guest

[white_2kgt]

First off, CMC is a PART of American Iron, and second, I'm one of those elusive "fans" of the claas. And third, I've been on the fence for several years about the possibility of stepping up to AI, which I'd only do if I was comfortable with the state of the rules. So those are my "dogs." Who are you anyway? Don't recall seeing you at the Nationals.

 

CMC and AI have different rules, the only way they are 'a part of' is we race on the track at the same time. I wasn't at nationals b/c a FFR driver flipped me on my lid 2 months prior to nationals and ruined my AMERICAN IRON car that will probably one day get an LSx motor, that's who I am, and I have no problem with mixing and matching parts on already LEGAL cars within AMERICAN IRON.

[Rustic]

CMC and AI have different rules, the only way they are 'a part of' is we race on the track at the same time. I wasn't at nationals b/c a FFR driver flipped me on my lid 2 months prior to nationals and ruined my AMERICAN IRON car that will probably one day get an LSx motor, that's who I am, and I have no problem with mixing and matching parts on already LEGAL cars within AMERICAN IRON.

 

If you read the NASA description of American Iron, you'll see they are connected by more than just being on the track at the same time:

 

The Series offers competitors three classes, Camaro Mustang Challenge (CMC), American Iron (AI) and American Iron Extreme (AIX).

[white_2kgt]

CMC and AI have different rules, the only way they are 'a part of' is we race on the track at the same time. I wasn't at nationals b/c a FFR driver flipped me on my lid 2 months prior to nationals and ruined my AMERICAN IRON car that will probably one day get an LSx motor, that's who I am, and I have no problem with mixing and matching parts on already LEGAL cars within AMERICAN IRON.

 

If you read the NASA description of American Iron, you'll see they are connected by more than just being on the track at the same time:

 

The Series offers competitors three classes, Camaro Mustang Challenge (CMC), American Iron (AI) and American Iron Extreme (AIX).

 

Well maybe I better go over to the CMC forum (why do they have a separate forum then?) and protest the CMC2 class, which makes no sense to me? Oh that's right, I don't run CMC, just like I don't interject my feelings into AIX discussions.

[D Algozine]

Guys, very interesting read for me. Yes, I'm the a-hole that ruined AI for a few of you... you have my permission to kick my nuts in efigy. And I'm sorry for not coming clean earlier, but the car wasn't on track yet and we were unsure if it'd be ready to compete.

 

Anyways, back to the discussion: May I suggest that a couple of you read through the entire thread since I think there is some useful discussion in it and I don't want to start my umteenth post about how we're on the bottom of the slippery slope and not the top - the day Fords got Chevy rear suspensions and front control arms was a lot more important than the day a Ford made the exact same power with a different mill. The powers at be are most definitely on top of the situation. Peder asked some good, direct questions about the power output and how we ensured our power compliance. I am open to further questions from the powers at be as well as other competitors and I am obviously VERY open to proving compliance if I finish well enough in future events to be taken to the dyno.

 

As far as the fans my abortion of a car will alienate... Some will love it and some will hate it, I guess that's about the same ratio that will love/hate any other GM or Ford running in the field. That's why I painted mine so bright - they can get their beer cans ready for a good toss

 

Also, am I mistaken or were the Pratt & Miller rigs and the Ford Racing rigs absent at our last few events? No, not in attendance? Hmmm...

 

Pat, I don't speak for everyone, but I don't think you're under attack, just the center of attention. In my opinion, you pushed the rules and tested the limits. Nothing wrong, just that in the past, pushing the rules usually resulted in getting pushed back, but not in the case. The whole engine section in the rules is no more than 3 or 4 sentences, which can be open to many new anvenues to explore. I've always read, that the intent of the rules will determine JWL's rulings. Usually, JWL's intent is perfectly clear, but people still want to test it.

Yes, big factory race teams have been noticeable absent from our races as well. But, that doesn't mean that in The Future, that factory race teams may take some kind of interest in the AI series. Or even the big guys in Detroit may get involved at some level. Who knows for sure? Why rule it out or make it unlikely? Several guys in AI in the Midwest work for Ford or one of it's affiliates.

 

To anyone who is in favor of mixing engines, please answer the following:

How does it benifit the series? Other than just the few who will make the swap?

How does it promote diversity among makes and models? (I say it doesn't. It actully does the opposite)

What is the aftermarket benift? (I've read this more than once, but haven't made the connection)

How does this effect the existing sponsors?

How would it effect potential sponsors and/or supporters of the series?

Will this effect perspective AI racers from joining?

How does this effect the promotion of this series, as the closest thing to the 60' era Trans Am series? Does it matter?

What about magazine exposure? Is MMFF or 5.0 or other Ford Mag's going to promote articles about a Mustang with an LS1, or a series with Mustangs that run LS1's? Will the GM mags promote it? I just recently saw the message about AI being promted in 5.0, are they going to continue if more and more Mustangs are using GM power? Same goes for the GM magazines? Zero benifit to individual racers and the series.

 

So why allow it? Why not allow Ford Motorsports Aluminum blocks? Plus, now we need to address the exotic combinations. Someone could do it. It doesn't say you can't.

 

 

Also, guys, leave the personal sh_t out. It has nothing to do with this discussion. That's what gets these threads shut down. Stay on point.

 

Chris, JWL's intend, or his spirit of the rules is what drives the rules. All though it's a good thing, there aren't volumes of technical rules to pour over. So, most of this comes down to JWL's ruling of individual cases. We have his previous statements and rulings, and the written word to comprise our interpretations. So I think when the term "spirit of the rules" is used we, atleast I, are refereing to JWL's.

[white_2kgt]

To anyone who is in favor of mixing engines, please answer the following:

How does it benifit the series? Other than just the few who will make the swap?

 

How does it hurt the series? Those of us that already have a mustang, but can't keep engines together and therefore sit at home on race day and get to watch NASCAR from the couch while the race car sits in the garage and the Ford engine is back at the builders once again sure isn't helping the series at all. As long as whatever legal combo is under the HP/TQ requirement who cars where it 'originally' came from, whats the problem?

 

How does it promote diversity among makes and models? (I say it doesn't. It actully does the opposite)

What is the aftermarket benift? (I've read this more than once, but haven't made the connection)

 

How does it hinder the diversity? Who is perceiving this 'diversity'? The fans? What fans? If we had any they wouldn't know what engine was in what car. Aftermarket benifit? What's that?

 

How does this effect the existing sponsors?

 

Why should Maximum Motorsprots, Steeda or whoever else care what engine is in the car. Their agreement with us is to run their suspension, nothing about running a Ford based engine. Are there any contingency sponsors for Engine parts anyway? Maybe those of us with Ford engines need someone to sponsor us Pistons. Why would Toyo care?

 

How would it effect potential sponsors and/or supporters of the series?

 

I don't see how it would effect them in any way other than the opportunity for more cars to be on track thus getting the sponsors names out there more and more. You have to agree that someone that has been racing for 5 or more years is going to have a greater number of sponsors/supporters than someone that is fresh out of the garage, considering our ford engines don't last all that long, we don't get to make that many races (or spend a ton of $$$ doing it). I see it as a win/win for us and sponsors/supporters.

 

Will this effect perspective AI racers from joining?

 

If they are that closed minded then do we really want them in the series? Maybe they'd be more comfortable in ASedan? I can't see how putting a Cheby motor in a Ford would piss off someone so bad that they'd scrap the whole idea of road racing with NASA. Considering most people get into racing in the first place as an afterthought, start out HPDEing and eventually want a taste of competition.

 

How does this effect the promotion of this series, as the closest thing to the 60' era Trans Am series? Does it matter?

 

Not to me. So I can't comment on that.

 

What about magazine exposure? Is MMFF or 5.0 or other Ford Mag's going to promote articles about a Mustang with an LS1, or a series with Mustangs that run LS1's? Will the GM mags promote it? I just recently saw the message about AI being promted in 5.0, are they going to continue if more and more Mustangs are using GM power? Same goes for the GM magazines? Zero benifit to individual racers and the series.

 

I no longer read any make specific magazines except for the BMW one that comes with my membership, they are mostly fluff anyway, if they don't want to run the articles there's plenty of other 'racing' magazines that can. Not like we are getting monthly articles in anything except GRM anyhow.

 

So why allow it? Why not allow Ford Motorsports Aluminum blocks? Plus, now we need to address the exotic combinations. Someone could do it. It doesn't say you can't.

 

Why not? You can run a Ford Alum block, just in a 4.6L configuration. What exotic combinations? You have to pick an engine from a car that is already allowed to run in the series, period. So if there's some 'exotic' engine that comes in an already legal car, please fill me in. Are you taking about some franken motor like chevy block with ford heads or what??

[Keith]

I still don't see why this is any different than me putting a Ford 9" in my Firebird (legal in CMC and probably AI as well). It's simply a matter of me choosing the best solution for my car (in my opinion).

 

Should I start making more serious power levels with my car or start to experience rear end problems, I will be looking to the 9" to solve my problems. Ford, Chebby, whatever.

 

As far as what spectators want from the series - what spectators? When was the last time our entrance fees were positively impacted by "the fans"? I am not proposing this but I think we need to be realistic about pleasing a near non-existent entity.

 

Brand loyalty - are you kidding? We are talking about brand loyalty for a car that hasn't been sold for 5 years in the case of the f-body. As far as I'm concerned, it's a dead platform from a brand loyalty standpoint.

 

As far as suppliers are concerned, there are suppliers out there that sell kits to bolt LT1's into Porsche 944's. Why couldn't there be a supplier out there selling a kit to bolt an LSx into a Mustang? It would just be another application in a long, existing list of places to bolt a SBC.

 

I have no idea how accurate this is but I will say it - over the years, I've asked competitors that drive Fords why they just weren't getting another 5.0 crate from Ford and putting that in their car. They said that Ford didn't have engines available that they could use. As a born and bred GM guy, the thought never occurred to me that you couldn't get a Ford crate. Go figure.

 

Lastly, I see two points of view in this thread and it mirrors what I have seen developing in AI over the last 4 years.

 

There is a thread of thinking that this amateur series should be worried about supplier's/spectator's opinion of things. While in the short term, I can understand this, I worry that if the series panders to the suppliers, there will end up being 'haves' and 'have nots'. (Obviously I think spectators are not a factor at all.) You can be assured that if the suppliers really get into this 100% and factories (Dodge and Ford have been mentioned) start supporting teams, this will be the end for a majority of current AI drivers. Factories are very selective about who gets support and there will not be enough to go around. How many 'haves' with there be?

 

The other end of the spectrum (admittedly my way of thinking) is that a largely self-funded racer should be free to choose what is (in his opinion) the most cost-effective solution for his car as long as it doesn't hurt the competitiveness of the series. If the rules force this guy to use equipment that he feels hurts his overall efforts, then this is not the best solution for that guy. If "Car A" can have this part, I don't see why "Car B" can't have that part as long as the other rules are followed.

 

...now, if you want to start charging admission for spectators, then we can talk a little more about loyalty, etc. Until then, let the competitors decide where to spend their money and let the suppliers decide what supports their business plans.

[D Algozine]

A couple points keep getting confused. Who said anything about fans. I'm talking about perspective racers, HPDE folks, sponsors, potential sponsors, existing publicity, and the spirit fo the series, whatever that means.

 

Most are addressing this issue based on how it effects them personally. not how it effects everyone, or how to recruit HPDE guys.

All of the Ford sponsors sell engine components along with suspension stuff. Just becasue we don't get money for it, doesn't mean it's not important to the sponsors. The sponsors make most of their money from street cars and HPDE folks, not racers. Hell theirs only a few hundred AI guys in the whole country Just because most of the racers don't read Ford and GM magazines has nothing to do with perspective racers. New recruits most likely come from main stream media, not niche racers magazines. HPDE feeds the whole system. Without it out we are paying double to race, or worse.

 

The engine rules say nothing about blocks having to come from AI legal cars or that they can't be aftermarket blocks.

 

The idea that every Ford engine is useless is insane.

 

A rear end is a suspension compenent that is not seen or used to identify a model. Any car guys nows what engines are in theirs and others brands. The engine is what defines most of these heavy crappy muscle cars that we race.

 

How many racers have had an HPDE or other car guy ask questions about your race car, such as what engine, how much HP.....Then have them say, that they have one, and wish it could be like theirs. Or they are building one to go racing someday soon. Tell that perspective guy that a lot the guys swap in an LS1's into a Fox body, and you'll most likely get a look. My understanding of the series is to maintain the original appearence and identity of the cars. This doesn't promote that.

 

Many people are looking at this very norrowly. This isn't just about a Chevy in a Ford. There are hundreds of other combinations, plus there are two new muscle cars hitting the market in 08, and maybe others down the road. Promoting the cars is the same as promoting the series. If you mix up the cars identity, I think you make it harder for the series.

[King Matt]

Keith, your car does not have an AI sticker on it any longer, so please refrain from commenting in this thread. Chad thanks you.

[white_2kgt]

Keith, your car does not have an AI sticker on it any longer, so please refrain from commenting in this thread. Chad thanks you.

 

He can post, he agrees w/ me, you on the other hand

 

I really don't see what the big deal is, nobody's making you run a chevy in a ford or vice versa, but for gods sake, this is suppose to be for FUN (I sure as hell ain't getting paid), if it doesn't hinder the COMPETITION why not make it legal? It also has the side benefit of making it CHEAPER to make reliable power. I've got 1.5k tied up in my SCT tuning hardware for my engine, LS1edit doesn't cost 1/2 that...

[Grizlbits]

I really don't see what the big deal is, nobody's making you run a chevy in a ford or vice versa, but for gods sake, this is suppose to be for FUN (I sure as hell ain't getting paid), if it doesn't hinder the COMPETITION why not make it legal? It also has the side benefit of making it CHEAPER to make reliable power. I've got 1.5k tied up in my SCT tuning hardware for my engine, LS1edit doesn't cost 1/2 that...

 

As one of the directors, I cannot speak for all the directors. I can however tell you that since JWL already gave his blessing for the swap, this whole discussion is moot. As a director, I can guess and tell you that most of the directors will probably agree with JWL in this case. It is legal now, and I'll go out on a limb here and say it always will be legal, so again this topic is pointless.

[D Algozine]

It was clear to me that JWL said it was fine, several pages ago. I just felt I needed to throw my thoughts in the mix, more of a self serving action, then anything else. I said my peace.

[Sidney]

Mr. Griswold,

 

This hybrid could/may/possibly have the same effect your car has on AIX in the Midwest region. No one is building an AIX car to compete against you because your car is so far out there nothing is going to touch it without huge money! The ones that race in AIX currently are only there cause they don't want to compete heads up in AI.

 

If some schmo is looking at building an AI car and sees that some screwed up Ford running an aluminum GM motor is winning (big if on winning) or presumed to be more competitive, then said schmo will look at other classes.

 

Watch out CMC...your numbers will be growing,

 

Sidney Franklin

AI #64

[Grizlbits]

Mr. Griswold,

 

This hybrid could/may/possibly have the same effect your car has on AIX in the Midwest region. No one is building an AIX car to compete against you because your car is so far out there nothing is going to touch it without huge money! The ones that race in AIX currently are only there cause they don't want to compete heads up in AI.

 

If some schmo is looking at building an AI car and sees that some screwed up Ford running an aluminum GM motor is winning (big if on winning) or presumed to be more competitive, then said schmo will look at other classes.

 

Watch out CMC...your numbers will be growing,

 

Sidney Franklin

AI #64

 

Mr. Absentee in Iowa:

 

I can build a duplicate of my car for $45,000 total. My new car will probably be less than that due to a cheap donor car with a blown up motor. There are more than a few AI cars that have spent $80,000 plus. The cars do not have to cost that much. The math as I see it is: 2 blown up Ford motors > 1 LS1 engine swap.

 

The engine swap is to make them reliable so we can B. S. about racing on the track, not B.S.ing about Ford Vs. Chevy. Isn't the racing more fun to B.S about?

[onralz]

So "Mr" Griswold, if I put an LS-1 in my Mustang, I won't blow up four motors in my AI car like I did last year? Now you tell me. Where do I sign up.

 

F.Y.I. I just took out my super expensive lightweight forged crank, lightweight forged rods, lightweight forged piston, internally balanced 327 motor, and put in my old stock 306 engine that lasted for 3 years and 26 or so AGS races to run in AI this year. As long as we get dyno's at each track, I'll have a (slim) chance at being on the podium even though I'll be way underpowered. If we don't have dyno's at the tracks, the 351 motors and 347 motors in the 3000 lb' cars out there are going to eat me alive no matter who is driving.

 

If there is something that we should be asking for NASA to do for us in regards to rules and regulations, it would be to have dyno's at each race.

What would it cost for NASA to lease a dyno for a year? Now that CMC is getting more prevalent and also need to use the dyno along with AI, is it becoming worthwhile? How can we racers help to make this happen? I might even bring a car or two if we can make this happen. Hey Griswold, can you fit another car in the Taj Ma Rig? How about a dyno?

[Keith]

It was clear to me that JWL said it was fine, several pages ago. I just felt I needed to throw my thoughts in the mix, more of a self serving action, then anything else. I said my peace.

 

I guess I am in the same position as Dave. Just throwing my $0.02 in there.

[Grizlbits]

So "Mr" Griswold, if I put an LS-1 in my Mustang, I won't blow up four motors in my AI car like I did last year? Now you tell me. Where do I sign up.

 

I didn't say that, but a crate motor *should* be more reliable. But hey, you know as well as I do that Crate motors are not perfect.

 

Taj Ma Toter is filling up fast with all the spare cars needed.

[Dean#4AI]

If we don't have dyno's at the tracks, the 351 motors and 347 motors in the 3000 lb' cars out there are going to eat me alive no matter who is driving.

 

Wow, that is some statement.

 

I hope you forgot to put the at the end of that sentence and wasn't saying what I assume you were saying.

[Rustic]

I would have to say that this thread is not pointless. It seems a decision on the rules was made (kind of) without much racer input... so, this is our only chance for input. I know that the way the rules are now written it's not illegal.

 

Can anyone site for me a sucsessful race series that allowed engine swaps from other makes?

 

There have been a lot of good points made here... but none of them seem to be on the side of allowing the swaps. The best I've heard so far is that it will be cheaper in the long run becasue Ford motors don't last. Every thing else just sounds like "come on, it won't hurt anything."

 

There is no doubt that this will be a benefit for the Ford guys... but I still haven't seen anyone state a good reason why it will be good for the long term goals of the series. (or maybe those goals need to be discussed).

 

Here is the "tag line" from the NASA site:

American Ironâ„¢ is a race series that calls to mind the legendary battles of the 1960's when champions competed against each other to win stoplight and drive-in bragging rights for their brand of choice.

Tell how someone could read that and think it makes since for the Mustangs to run Chevy motors? (or vice versa)?

 

If the long term goal is to make AI a mustang only show.... this is another step in the right direction. As is obvious, I don't think that's a good move.

[Rustic]

One more thing...

When I decided to build my AI/X car, I did it because I thought the Series was very cool and interesting because it was open to a veriety of cars. Which was good for me as my car isn't "normal."

 

I also fit great because the whole reason for building the car was to sell parts... which again.... is supposedly what the Series promotes. To attrach a variety of sponsors you need a variety of cars.

 

It would be a shame to see the series move away from those principles.

[Grizlbits]

One more thing...

 

That is at least 2 things, maybe more.

 

The pointless comment refered more to the fact that the swap is legal now. The odds of it EVER being illegal is about 1,000,000 to one. The series directors are extremely hesitant to change rules after the fact on a major change as this would be. Grandfathering cars because of a rule change does not work so that is poison also. So like it or not, 1. It's legal 2. It is most likely here to stay for a very long time.

 

Can we now focus on the actual "racing" part again, please? So Patrick, how did that car run anyway? Any problems with the swap itself?

[onralz]

If we don't have dyno's at the tracks, the 351 motors and 347 motors in the 3000 lb' cars out there are going to eat me alive no matter who is driving.

 

Wow, that is some statement.

 

I hope you forgot to put the at the end of that sentence and wasn't saying what I assume you were saying.

I should have added "my car" at the end of "no matter who is driving". As far as faces.....

[swhiteh3]

OK, so I don't agree with decision, but I'll go with it.

 

So I can install an aluminum block Chevy engine, but not an aftermarket aluminum block Ford engine, right?

 

Can I install a dry-sump Z06 motor, since it's an OEM motor, as long as it's tuned to make the HP/TQ limit? Or does it have to be an OEM motor from a car that is okay'ed to compete, such as the Camaro? Since I don't know anything about GM motors, what is the best GM crate motor that will make around the right HP that is still legal?

 

Does anyone know the weight difference between a Chevy motor with an aluminum block and a SBF comparably equipped? If there is a significant difference in weight, the GM motors will certainly be the hot ticket in the very near future, so I better jump on the train. And since I was going to build a motor this winter anyway, now is the time.

 

Patrick - what headers did you use and how did they work with the Mustang steering shaft? What harness did you use, and were there any problems with the wiring? Care to share exactly what crate motor it was, and what secondary components you needed to purchase? I assume due to it's size you were able to get it much farther back than the Ford motor as well?

 

Scott

[pederb]

Scott,

 

No dry sumps, not even OEM in AI but in AIX you CAN have a 505hp Z06 create motor.

[racercosmo]

The Z06 engine is dry sump OEM.

An LS2 would be great. 400 hp 400 tq. The weight is close to a 302.