2009 Rules

[Varkwso]

Financial crisis hit me very hard Things uncertain

 

Yep - it hurt my play budget also.

 

Dennis,

 

..... I actually think the changes will make the WRX’s and Evo’s unbeatable in TTA. My beef was with the cost of the changes to do them correctly.......

 

Jimmy, I agree with you on the STi's and Evo's as the cars to beat in TTA in 2009. I think the turbo VW GTIs will be tough down in the lower classes also for the same reason.

 

I think 2009 will be testing the durability of the boosted motors. I have seen about 6 heads lifted already from running "just a little more boost" STi's and Evo's. Of course Jared and I (and others) have scattered C5 motors in the past few years also.

[eMINI]

Still just plugging along in my antique with stock power...

[Rob S.]

What does a "standalone" ECU offer (performance wise) that a reflash/chip OEM ECU does not? If you are going to make the reflash/chip OEM ECU free why not make the "standalone" free? The reflash software available now is fairly sophisticated and allows you to change the parameters of the stock ECU as if it were a "standalone" as well as data log while tuning. Making the "standalones" free allows the people who already have "standalones" to benefit and be on the same playing field as the people with reflashes.....and it offers a solution for people who have cars that the OEM ECU is not reflashable. Also.....the aftermarket "standalone" ECU's can only hold one tune unlike some OEM ECU's.

[boomn29]

What does a "standalone" ECU offer (performance wise) that a reflash/chip OEM ECU does not? If you are going to make the reflash/chip OEM ECU free why not make the "standalone" free? The reflash software available now is fairly sophisticated and allows you to change the parameters of the stock ECU as if it were a "standalone" as well as data log while tuning. Making the "standalones" free allows the people who already have "standalones" to benefit and be on the same playing field as the people with reflashes.....and it offers a solution for people who have cars that the OEM ECU is not reflashable. Also.....the aftermarket "standalone" ECU's can only hold one tune unlike some OEM ECU's.

It would make sense to lower the standalone / piggyback pts assessment now. I don't think they did?

 

I know on my car, a standalone would you get more power everywhere in the powerband. There's a large cost difference (at least 3x) just for the standalone purchase and you need a reeeeaally good tuner!

[kbrew8991]

the cat is already too far out of the bag imho - the chip/reflash stuff is bad enough to be made a free mod, but to go that much farther - no thanks. Its pretty easy to police the differences there (I hope...). Choose what makes sense for your points combo, duh.

 

and not like it matters because you're wide open to do whichever you want in TTS btw

[Rob S.]

What does a "standalone" ECU offer (performance wise) that a reflash/chip OEM ECU does not? If you are going to make the reflash/chip OEM ECU free why not make the "standalone" free? The reflash software available now is fairly sophisticated and allows you to change the parameters of the stock ECU as if it were a "standalone" as well as data log while tuning. Making the "standalones" free allows the people who already have "standalones" to benefit and be on the same playing field as the people with reflashes.....and it offers a solution for people who have cars that the OEM ECU is not reflashable. Also.....the aftermarket "standalone" ECU's can only hold one tune unlike some OEM ECU's.

It would make sense to lower the standalone / piggyback pts assessment now. I don't think they did?

 

I know on my car, a standalone would you get more power everywhere in the powerband. There's a large cost difference (at least 3x) just for the standalone purchase and you need a reeeeaally good tuner!

 

 

I don't understand how you would get more power with a standalone. On a reflash you can change the same parameters that are on the standalone; fuel, timing, and boost solenoid duty cycle. I've seen dynos from reflashes and standalones with very similar results. The difference usually comes from the tuner's experience with that specific platform.

[kbrew8991]

I don't understand how you would get more power with a standalone. On a reflash you can change the same parameters that are on the standalone; fuel, timing, and boost solenoid duty cycle. I've seen dynos from reflashes and standalones with very similar results. The difference usually comes from the tuner's experience with that specific platform.

 

depends on the car I bet especially older ECUs that may not have the flexibility the modern stuff does

[Rob S.]

the cat is already too far out of the bag imho - the chip/reflash stuff is bad enough to be made a free mod, but to go that much farther - no thanks. Its pretty easy to police the differences there (I hope...). Choose what makes sense for your points combo, duh.

 

and not like it matters because you're wide open to do whichever you want in TTS btw

 

I agree....it doesn't matter in TTS or after you have been reclassed. My point is....if the results are the same with reflashes and standalones then why not make it fair and even easier to police by making them both free?

[Rob S.]

I don't understand how you would get more power with a standalone. On a reflash you can change the same parameters that are on the standalone; fuel, timing, and boost solenoid duty cycle. I've seen dynos from reflashes and standalones with very similar results. The difference usually comes from the tuner's experience with that specific platform.

 

depends on the car I bet especially older ECUs that may not have the flexibility the modern stuff does

 

Ok....what about the cars with ECU's that cannot be reflashed? Take the standalone points or get a different car to make sure they can be competitive with the cars that are able to do the reflash for free?

[kbrew8991]

you're also allowed a chip or AFC like device - that pretty much opens up any option needed for simple fuel tuning (the intent as I understand it).

 

I am against ANY points-free allowance for this stuff, but Greg will say its impossible to police reflashed ECUs and the other minor items were only allowed to level the field. Having the ECU fully open isn't as bad to police as you think or he'd have gone with that since the whole allowance was put in just because of policing issues.

 

hmm, these guts look like Megasqurit, or hmm this box doesn't say Toyota on it it says AEM, etc, etc. There is so much other stuff you can do and hide with a stand-alone (traction control, etc,) that it needs to be a points item, maybe even more than it is IMO.

 

I don't write the rules or have that much input though

[ff2skip]

As a person who purposely sold his AEM 1052-U to run TT's, I'm not thrilled about the new rule regarding ecu's for a number of reasons. One, I don't have a flashable ecu nor can the car be "chipped." Two, the S2000 motor doesn't gain much with a VAFC(had one before). That type of device is better suited for factory detuned cars. Three, and yes I'm whining now, the early S2000's got the very short end of the stick when it is the later AP2's that rule the roost. I already outlined how point-wise in the other thread.

 

I don't believe I have enough skill to challenge top guys, but I do know the S2000 pretty damn well. Still baffled by the logic that went into point/rule changes regarding the different model years. Never received a response from anyone of shot-calling status.

[krisa9977]

It is only 3 extra pts. for "standalone" ECU for NA engines.

[ff2skip]

It is only 3 extra pts. for "standalone" ECU for NA engines.

Only +3 pts. +3 pts is a bump in tire width and model(RA-1 --> next set of tires).

 

It's only +3pts now(versus previously). And about $1400(I spent $1600 for mine new). Plus tuning costs. Plus trips to the tuner. Plus...

 

I'm just going to get my car to the track and "run-what-I-brung." All the bickering on this forum has thwarted some of my enthusiasm. As much I as I think some of the changes are not for the betterment, I do appreciate that I have someplace to run without having to go all-out as far as a comp license/spec built car. So while I may voice my opinion(and it's just that), thanks to those who have put their time into the TT program.

[krisa9977]

I understand your frustration, but there are no rules that can make everybody happy. I got bumped by * by 7pts this year, but I like new ECU rules .

[Varkwso]

I understand your frustration, but there are no rules that can make everybody happy. I got bumped by * by 7pts this year, but I like new ECU rules .

 

 

C5s and Porsches got hammered by the tire rules of 2007 so sometimes life is not fair - but TT does try.

[Greg G.]

It would make sense to lower the standalone / piggyback pts assessment now. I don't think they did?

 

I know on my car, a standalone would you get more power everywhere in the powerband. There's a large cost difference (at least 3x) just for the standalone purchase and you need a reeeeaally good tuner!

 

They were lowered, from +7 to +3 for NA, and +14 to +10 for FI.

[Markus]

While I appreciate the engine management points being lowered, I'm also not sure about there being any points assigned given the ECU chip/reflash change.

 

Ken mentioned traction control and other advanced features before, but does that even matter for most cars? IE - the newer Vettes, WRX's, EVO's etc already have traction control built in.

 

So - take a car like a naturally aspirated Miata.

Option 1: Chip or reflash the ECU. Cost = couple hundred? Points = 0. Results = + a couple hp.

Option 2: Megasquirt. Cost = $500. Points = 3. Results = + a couple hp.

 

Maybe the Megasquirt would add 8hp vs 4 or some other small gain, but is it really worth the points? It might be more flexible, or easier to tune, but are the end results really that different? How would any aftermarket ECU add a workable traction control to a car like that and would it really impact lap times? What other gains are there?

 

I guess I just don't get it, even for an MR2, or the S2K guys, where is the +3 point advantage of aftermarket engine management?

 

- Mark

[kbrew8991]

if you're only using it for simple fuel tuning, or even fuel & ignition timing on a close to stock car, the +3 is not worth it. When we're talking about a car that is up a few classes and has alot more widgets tossed on it, the gap widens considerably and I think thats where the point value is being assessed.

 

if it isn't a good deal for your car, don't do it

 

- KB, who is looking at somewhere around a 5-8% gain from this new allowance, but still thinks its a bit shortsighted deal and a dangerous precedent to keep setting... but will solider on regardless

[Shawn M.]

While I appreciate the engine management points being lowered, I'm also not sure about there being any points assigned given the ECU chip/reflash change.

 

Ken mentioned traction control and other advanced features before, but does that even matter for most cars? IE - the newer Vettes, WRX's, EVO's etc already have traction control built in.

 

So - take a car like a naturally aspirated Miata.

Option 1: Chip or reflash the ECU. Cost = couple hundred? Points = 0. Results = + a couple hp.

Option 2: Megasquirt. Cost = $500. Points = 3. Results = + a couple hp.

 

Maybe the Megasquirt would add 8hp vs 4 or some other small gain, but is it really worth the points? It might be more flexible, or easier to tune, but are the end results really that different? How would any aftermarket ECU add a workable traction control to a car like that and would it really impact lap times? What other gains are there?

 

I guess I just don't get it, even for an MR2, or the S2K guys, where is the +3 point advantage of aftermarket engine management?

 

- Mark

 

 

I think it all depends on a few things.

 

1) how good/bad was the stock fuel system for racing in a chosen car.

2) what other engine mods have been done to allow a Megasquirt to function at its peak?

 

Just for an example, for my Scirocco its a good upgrade to a more effecient and proper way to fuel the motor. Stock VW CIS injection systems were built for a commuter car type opperation. They dont work well with a big cam and the fueling variables can promote a short engine life. For me its worth the points but people with better designed cars to begin with already have that effeciency and some sort of self tuning built it.

 

At the checkered flag, it all depends on the car as to wether or not its worth the points or not. The gains arent always in HP and TQ. Sometimes they come in reliability too.

 

BTW, I paid $425 for mine with their harness.

[Varkwso]

Not all "point" mods are equal in all cars - some cars can get huge benefits from some mods and some do not. That is part of the optimization of your car for any competition class.

 

Heavily modified cars can use some of the more esoteric points to optimize their setup. Heavily modified cars also tend to see more reliability issues.

 

I see a lot of mod points on cars that actually do very little to help the car go faster around a road course - often since it "came that way".

[Markus]

...When we're talking about a car that is up a few classes and has alot more widgets tossed on it...

 

Ken, what exactly are these mysterious "other widgets" and as I asked before - would they really even impact lap times?

 

 

Just for an example, for my Scirocco its a good upgrade to a more effecient and proper way to fuel the motor. Stock VW CIS injection systems were built for a commuter car type opperation. They dont work well with a big cam and the fueling variables can promote a short engine life. For me its worth the points but people with better designed cars to begin with already have that effeciency and some sort of self tuning built it.

 

Shawn, it might be cheaper/easier to do this with Megasquirt, but once again - couldn't you conceivably get a custom reflashed or chipped ECU that also took advantage of the larger cams? It might cost a little more to do so, and you might give up some programmability, but the end results would be the same wouldn't they? Yet one method is +0 and the other is +3.

 

Sorry for asking alot of q's, not trying to be a jerk really, this is just a new area to me and I'm trying to understand the rationale.

 

- Mark

[TurboShortBus]

Here's an example of aftermarket vs modified stock ECU: the AEM #1401 ECU that I run in my supercharged 1994 Mustang GT can do a hell of a lot more (traction control, wastegate control, etc.) than my old EEC-Tuner ever could (admittedly, I never 100% learned the EEC-Tuner, but there's too much unnecessary crap in there). While you can do a lot more when reflashing OBD-II ECUs, the previous OBD-Is are more limited. So, this issue might apply more to older cars.

 

Mark

[Shawn M.]

Shawn, it might be cheaper/easier to do this with Megasquirt, but once again - couldn't you conceivably get a custom reflashed or chipped ECU that also took advantage of the larger cams? It might cost a little more to do so, and you might give up some programmability, but the end results would be the same wouldn't they? Yet one method is +0 and the other is +3.

 

Sorry for asking alot of q's, not trying to be a jerk really, this is just a new area to me and I'm trying to understand the rationale.

 

- Mark

 

 

My 1980 Scirocco had a hard wired ECU. Basic and simple yet no possible way to reflash it or even chip it. I would suspect old cars like mine would/could be more examples of why replacing the ECU would benefit the car more due to their intended use as a street car.

 

My other option could be to use DCOE Webbers. This would require contstant tuning which I really dont want to deal with even though people have told me they set them and forget them without issue. With elevation changes from various tracks, id prefer the route of Megasquirts simplicity.

 

I dont mind the questions, least its not crying..... LOL!!

[kbrew8991]

...When we're talking about a car that is up a few classes and has alot more widgets tossed on it...

 

Ken, what exactly are these mysterious "other widgets" and as I asked before - would they really even impact lap times?

 

Markus - in that instance I was referring to a heavily modified car - ie cams, etc, etc that would require more radical computer intervention than you can do with just a simple chip.

 

though anyone who has been around a really nice TC setup (like Racelogic) and not the utter crap that comes in factory cars knows that its just about as good as the F1 type stuff. For TT its not as big a deal since we're not forced to run in the wet (yet) - but for PT...

 

and really what I don't like the most out of this whole thing is the precedent we keep setting by saying "oh we can't catch you for this so we're going to let everyone have it points-free". Please guys - lets fight to keep the size of the free mod list smaller, keep your ears and eyes open for ways to catch things like this before they're forced onto the free mod list.

[Markus]

and really what I don't like the most out of this whole thing is the precedent we keep setting by saying "oh we can't catch you for this so we're going to let everyone have it points-free". Please guys - lets fight to keep the size of the free mod list smaller, keep your ears and eyes open for ways to catch things like this before they're forced onto the free mod list.

 

Ohmygosh, I actually agree with you there. I also would prefer that there were less "free" mods.

 

But, since the horse is already out of the barn or whatever the bad analogy is...seems like if ECU/modified sensor inputs/etc are all +0 maybe aftermarket engine management should also go that way.

 

Thank you Ken and Shawn for illustrating some areas where the aftermarket ECU would be more advantageous, but it still seems to me that is 10% of the time and the other 90% there isn't much difference. And given that older OBD1 cars will have more of an issue getting a reflash/rechip might make sense to just make it all +0. It's like we've already gone so far, may as well go all the way.

 

This has been brought up and bounced around a bit so I'll drop it now. Thanks!

 

- Mark