Rules Silly Season- Closed!

[Red Tornado]

I always love these posts if for nothing more then pure humor.

 

Yes vintage (and define them by year) should be allowed certain rule breaks. Give them big breaks in my mind.

 

Please everyone reread the 1st page of AI rules and purpose of series. It is aftermarket and factory support focused. So whoever steps up reward!!

 

Let's focus on rules that get more than just ford in there and several aftermarket folks.

 

Just my unbias non car I currently drive view.

 

Ok only two asks..well three.

 

1. Pick a tire that is available and with decent contigency. (life etc.. if secondary to those two in my mind)

 

2. Get aftermarket and factory coming back in!! That is main basis of series if you read purpose.

 

3. Start using in car traqmate dyno check alot or all the time.

 

All else seems to be working decently well.

[D Algozine]

When did "factory" support become one of the intents of AI? I'm not being a smart a$$, I'm really asking. I've never known that to be part of the intent, other then we need a shell and some basic parts to start with.

I'm right there with TJ, the single biggest advantage is the Race ABS, by far. Wasn't there data collected from several cars at Nationals. I'd love to see some of that comparative data, particularly the braking zones. I would love to see a full written explanation for including a $7k transmission in AI, when at the time AIX limit was only $6,500, and the best part, two weeks before the national race. But it did allow several professionally built S197's to race that year. So, I suppose the justification is car count, but what a mockery of the rules. That is just ridiculous. The idea of rules evolving is certainly understood, but that's not what has been going on here. Oh, sorry we are not supposed to go back and revisit previous BS rules changes. But we are supposed to put our thinking caps on and figure out how a privateer can put together the resources to compete with the design ,development and resources of Ford Racing. Not going to happen. How about have those cars adhere to the same rules as every other legal platform. Sorry, but the justification for changes to allow used race cars to join AI sometime in the future when they are retired from the pro ranks is such BS. Those cars are skipping the pro series and landing directly in AI. How tough would it be to unplug the ABS and put a standard transmission in a race car? And how are these cars skipping the pro series and landing directly in AI?.....big money.

So, it is a matter of money, and in so many ways and at so many different levels. Do you think Ford Racing would sell as many race cars if there wasn't several race classes for them to advertise in, including pro and the amateur ranks. I'm sure it's been justified as a mutual benefit to both AI and Ford Racing. I'm sure that helps everyone feel better about the changes. Don't forget the deal for the S197 contingency money from Ford. I would love to be a fly on the wall for the discussion to allow the Race ABS. I'm sure that future street and race cars were a factor. There are many Ford and Ford Racing engineers with strong affiliation with AI. They have had the ability to lobby and get rules changed for the betterment of the new Mustangs and their own personal benefit. The rest of the cars, apparently don't have a collective voice, or the resources (money) to make it happen. It is mostly about money, as it usually is. Car counts equal money. factory race cars equal money, street cars, parts, advertising, ..... Now the racers with very large budgets see absolutely nothing wrong with these rules changes that have been made. It allows that individual to right a check and get a fully developed and highly competitive car, that is far and above any other legal AI car. No crime, that's the way of the world. Expect the part about rules being changed to make the cars legal in AI. NO, its not a conspiracy, and I'm sure there are those who believe it's good for the series, but I put my money on money. Personally I don't think it's good for the series. Its good for a small number of individuals racers with means, Ford Racing ,NASA and and the few that jump back and forth from AI to WC and Grand Am. Perhaps this is the future of AI and some of us just haven't realized it yet. Someone please clarify what the intent and direction AI is going.

It appears my only recourse is to spend my money where I see fit. Although many of us truly love this series, we do have options.

 

Edit: Added NASA

Edited October 11, 2011 by Guest

[47car]

I am with TJ and Dave. Let's keep AI grassroots and make the new cars disable their ABS and install a cheaper tranny. I think we can assume that anyone running one of these cars can afford to replace their trannies without much pain. Ditching ABS will restore parity and keep the human element. I think it also makes for a more exciting race.

 

I am also becoming a big fan of using Traqmate to police the HP. So far It is working very well in Outlaw and our current plan is to use this solely next year and have ZERO dynoing! It has been very effective to keep our west coast cars on a level playing field. So far I am impressed.

[860TTC]

The M-7003-T56R is $7,100 list price (MSRP). It should be illegal for AI.

[stevepoe]

factory support "ya right" you guys act like ford racing is standing over us throwing parts at us.....

 

as for the trans rule of the t56r. ya again I don't knowanyone whi is running that box ."it sucks" anyway.

 

the tr6060 , m82 and the tko series are in most with a few running the boss r1 box "see link below" . it 's legal. The few that are running it are only running it becasue that is what it calls for as a spec part in other series they race in. And if I had a unlimited budget or wanted to think outside the box none of the above would be on the list . I would be shopping for the nascar box or calling richmond or others for a true race box.

 

http://www.brothersperformance.com/p-4252-ford-racing-boss-r1-six-speed-transmission.aspx

 

your trans complaint is not valid .

 

as for the abs ....really we are still talking about this ? how many years is this now ?

 

I sware Covini I think you post this for amusement purposes only...

 

and Dave abs is not a class killer. yes it makes less drivers better as a aid but for sure not a class killer

 

TJ had the 3rd fastest time at nationals finished 4th and according to him from what I read above no place on his a game that weekend .We had what 10-11 mustangs if that with the race calibration ? guys are complaining about the newer mustangs but honestly they are pretty much stock cars and if you look at the rules and what is avaialble to do to a car they have not even scratched the surface of what can be done in a AI rules

 

obviously TJ Has done his homework but keep in mind the guys that finished ahead of him have plenty of seat time and a few national championships under 2 of the 3 in front of him. the 3rd has a few years in mc and a year in wc gts so he is obviously no back marker either.

 

the Driving talent is alot more in AI then it was years past. be it a camaro or a mustang driving talent has a ton to do with it .

 

As for tires........well I think we all know that Todd has no input in this . It will obviously be a upper management decision and I'm sure they will do what is best for NASA and try and keep us in mind for keeping nasa and american iron alive.

 

as for the life and future of ai ....It needs to be thought about carefully I know the great lakes region is by far the most ai car counts month after month through the season in NASA with half the field being a very easy jump over into st2.

 

in my opinion the rules need to be looked at in cmc2 and ai .with the blend of cmc and cmc2 in 2012 the rules should be reworked for a place for older ai cars to drop back to cause those older cmc mustangs will not have a chance with the rules package they have up against the 05 mustangs if all they get is a hp bump.

 

How many guys would consider going to cmc if they allowed ta and phb with coilovers and a 260 hp rule on toyo tires ? cause that is what it's going to take for a older mustang to run with a 05 cmc2 mustang.

 

as with anything today it's a adapt and grow or die out .

[nape]

factory support "ya right" you guys act like ford racing is standing over us throwing parts at us.....

 

as for the trans rule of the t56r. ya again I don't knowanyone whi is running that box ."it sucks" anyway.

 

the tr6060 , m82 and the tko series are in most with a few running the boss r1 box "see link below" . it 's legal. The few that are running it are only running it becasue that is what it calls for as a spec part in other series they race in. And if I had a unlimited budget or wanted to think outside the box none of the above would be on the list . I would be shopping for the nascar box or calling richmond or others for a true race box.

 

http://www.brothersperformance.com/p-4252-ford-racing-boss-r1-six-speed-transmission.aspx

 

your trans complaint is not valid .

 

Ford Racing isn't throwing parts, but they are absorbing a lot of the R&D cost.

 

The T56R might be an old part number, but the ratios of the BOSS R1 are the same and that's what I'm aiming at. $6800 MRSP and a $5500 actual cost. Show me how a GM guy can put those ratios together without buying the Ford box and making it fit the car or getting into some expensive machining. I know how to do it, but it makes the $5500 price tag sound like a bargain.

 

Good luck trying to find a NASCAR box that fits the rules (no dog ring). I'd have 2 of them (with dog rings and 300 possible ratios) for the retail price of a BOSS R1 if it was legal. As far as the Richmond, it could work but it makes the T56/TR6060 look like a lightweight and the price if out of my range (but in the old trans dollar limit).

 

The other thing is perceived advantage. Those in the know understand what it actually takes and the differences. But, who is going to want to build a car with street car ratios against that unless they don't know what's hitting them.

 

The trans complaint is the only one that is valid, can be policed, and was thrown in under the radar, 2 years ago.

 

Might as well allow dog boxes if we're going to spend that much. Let's see how the have's and have not's differ on that thought.

[gbrown8439]

Liberty transmission http://www.libertysgears.com/ and Rockland standard gear http://www.rsgear.com/ will both build you a trans with almost any ratio you want for less than a FRPP trans.

 

Liberty will use a TKO 600 and Rockland can do it with a T56.

 

I do think trans costs are a mess in both AI and AIX but I think the arguments here are off base.

 

Put a cost limit on AI transmissions. Who really cares if they have synchros or not?

 

In AIX, how about no sequential? Other than that who cares? If I have a $6000 or $8000 4 speed does it really matter? You can pick them up for pennies on the dollar these days. How many AIX transmissions were torn apart this year to prove they were under the $ limit?

[robbodleimages]

Bottom line here is that you cant make rules to keep people with more money and more willingness to use it from doing that.

 

If there is an agreed to advantage that the Ford Racing Cars have, then make power to weight ratio adjustments for each platform to make it even and let everyone race. I thought this was supposed to be fun. The prize is a bowling trophy. Isn't the more the merrier applicable? Shouldnt we be making it easier to race rather than harder?

[Grizlbits]

Here are my personel suggestions (not as an AI director)

1A. Tires- We need to fix them so the average bear does not have to spend $1200 per weekend or more. Fix? Not sure, maybe pick an endurance tire like Continental Grand AM(made by Hoosier) for the dry and leave the wet open. According to Dean Martin, they are a good consistant tire, a bit slower than the R6, but last longer. I do not have experience with these but others who do can chime in.

1B. We need tires that are similar pricing for 17 & 18, with a better contingency program than TOYO, that last like the "old" RA1's USED TO LAST. They don't last like they used to. Even the Miata guys noticed. I hope we don't get back to Toyo's and they are not the same as they used to be. We had guys in our region going all year on 2-3 sets of tires. The new Toyo's don't last much more than the Hoosiers IMO.

2A. Transmissions: Get rid of the limits for both AI & AIX. If you want to exclude a specific transmission, state that "X" transmission is not allowed. State no dog ring boxes. State no sequential.

2B. Let AI run dog ring boxes. I've run tons of them, they are dependable, and can be had cheap rebuilt from NASCAR teams for 3K with shifter. BY my math, that is a ton cheaper than most all the new transmission on the market. $7000 -$3000 = $4000 savings. I ran without a clutch at RA due to the piston which presses the clutch failing. It was much harder to downshift and cost me time. The upshifts are no big deal and I don't think that it is a big enough advantage to worry about IMO. Your opinion may differ, but not using the clutch is hard on everything in the driveline and I don't recommend it anyway.

3A. Even the fields - The perception is that the Ford Mustang with the throttle by wire, & race ABS is an advantage. It is driving out the older camaros, mustangs etc into CMC2 or to just not come out at all. Adjust the class by adding #200 to 05 & up Mustangs with any style ABS. Less than 200 pounds won't really matter, more is too much IMO. Going the other way by giving the older cars more power is too expensive. It is easier/cheaper to take away than add power.

3B. Add 200# to any car with ABS. Lets keep this a drivers series. Don't want a flat spot by using ABS? Fine, carry 200# more.

4. Shock towers - remove them for AIX most of us are not using them anyway. Hell mine are zuesed on and can be removed in 5 seconds.

5. Track widths - Let the older cars run widths similar to the new cars. Why do we keep giving advantages to the new cars? Lets not drive out the older cars by giving the newer cars breaks.

 

6. Loose the gay dash rule. - Sorry Todd, I just can't let it go.

 

Chris Griswold

#71 AIX

[robbodleimages]

chris, wouldnt a basic adjustment to the power to weight ratio be more in line with the ai philosphy instead of adding weight? right now each driver can choose how to balance his car. some prefer horsepower with more weight and some less hp with a lighter car. why change that here?

[kbrew8991]

if X weight and Y horsepower keeps you in the ratio what I think he's purposing is to have any car with abs be X+200lbs with Y horsepower. You could still change either variable.

 

- KB, who also wonders if Todd does this on purpose but in all seriousness it is good to see that a national series director will go to all this headache and trouble to make sure every competitor is heard.

[Grizlbits]

Yes, that would accomplish the same thing. I don't know how to track it. a "+ 200" on the windshield would work otherwise we will need different dyno sheets for some cars.

[MikeP-99Z]

ABS shouldn't be the same penalty for the Ford Racing ABS vs. the SN95 or F-body ABS. Say +200# SN95/F-body ABS, +400# Ford Racing S197 ABS. Or alter hp/weight ratios in general, like ST does with R compounds vs. slicks.

 

Where's Corey's AIX Outlaw rules?

[marshallmosty]

All, regarding ABS, we are going to collect more data on 22-Oct at the final TX region event on a S197 car which will be equipped with both the Stock ABS unit and the GT500 HCU and FR500S "race" module. This data will be used to determine what action, if any, is necessary to level the playing field, WRT ABS.

 

Testing will be done "back to back" on the same tires, pads, etc.

[D Algozine]

ABS shouldn't be the same penalty for the Ford Racing ABS vs. the SN95 or F-body ABS. Say +200# SN95/F-body ABS, +400# Ford Racing S197 ABS. Or alter hp/weight ratios in general, like ST does with R compounds vs. slicks.

 

Where's Corey's AIX Outlaw rules?

 

I tend to agree. I would suggest 100 lbs for any ABS and 200 lbs for the Ford Race system, but how can you tell the difference between the S197 stock box and the Ford Racing box? Is there a reliable way to tell the difference between the two?

I've also been wondering about Corey's Outlaw rules, perhaps that method of points should be looked at. Isn't it very similiar to ST ?

 

Isn't it all about making the cars as equal as possbile, and knowing that if you built and prepare your car properly, and hone your racing skills, that you will have a legitimate shot at running up front?

[D Algozine]

All, regarding ABS, we are going to collect more data on 22-Oct at the final TX region event on a S197 car which will be equipped with both the Stock ABS unit and the GT500 HCU and FR500S "race" module. This data will be used to determine what action, if any, is necessary to level the playing field, WRT ABS.

 

Testing will be done "back to back" on the same tires, pads, etc.

 

Very interesting. Looking forward to the data.

I would point out one item. That system in the proper hands, meaning someone who has experience in getting every last ounce of performance from it, is likely to have differenct data, then others.

[stevepoe]

All, regarding ABS, we are going to collect more data on 22-Oct at the final TX region event on a S197 car which will be equipped with both the Stock ABS unit and the GT500 HCU and FR500S "race" module. This data will be used to determine what action, if any, is necessary to level the playing field, WRT ABS.

 

Testing will be done "back to back" on the same tires, pads, etc.

 

Very interesting. Looking forward to the data.

I would point out one item. That system in the proper hands, meaning someone who has experience in getting every last ounce of performance from it, is likely to have differenct data, then others.

 

 

not to mention pad compound , caliper size and brake booster will also play a roll in it .

[stevepoe]

ABS shouldn't be the same penalty for the Ford Racing ABS vs. the SN95 or F-body ABS. Say +200# SN95/F-body ABS, +400# Ford Racing S197 ABS. Or alter hp/weight ratios in general, like ST does with R compounds vs. slicks.

 

Where's Corey's AIX Outlaw rules?

 

+400 ? really

[MikeP-99Z]

 

+400 ? really

 

Just a number for an example/reference. Yeah +400 is out there.

[edhunter]

All, regarding ABS, we are going to collect more data on 22-Oct at the final TX region event on a S197 car which will be equipped with both the Stock ABS unit and the GT500 HCU and FR500S "race" module. This data will be used to determine what action, if any, is necessary to level the playing field, WRT ABS.

 

Testing will be done "back to back" on the same tires, pads, etc.

 

How about a session with it turned off - ie, pull the fuse.... that'd make it really informative!

[47car]

Here are the Current Outlaw rules for those that we asking. FYI, top three cars last weekend were within .6 seconds all running on different tires and mod factors.

 

Outlaw Rules

 

The rules are based on HP/weight with a starting point of 8.3:1 but like NASA ST2, there are mod factors to equalize the cars. The tire is open but is subject to a power mod factor as well.

 

Base weight to hp ratio is 8.3/1 HP and TQ max. From there according to what mods you have below, you will add that number to your weight side of the ratio. HP measurement is Dynojet based now like AI but will be changing to a data acquisition based system very soon.

 

Tire width:

275 base. Wider 295 tires get a +.2, 305s get a +.3, and 315s get a +.4

 

Tire compound:

Toyo RA1 and Nitto NT01s are base, BFG, Kumhos and Hankook C51 are +.1, Hoosier R6, Goodyear 'R's and Hankook C71 +.2, Hoosier 'A's  and Hankook C91 are +.4

 

Slicks will be allowed and assigned a Mod factor by the committee on a case by case basis

 

Brakes:

No ABS base, unmodified, Pre 2005 OE ABS +.2, 2005 and later OE abs and race ABS +.4

 

13" front rotor, 4 piston caliper is base, 14" rotors and/or 6 piston +.1

 

Transmission:

Syncromesh trans with OE 2nd 3rd 4th gear ratios are base, non stock (closer) 2,3,4 ratios and any new OE close ratio trans will be +.3, dog ring +.1

 

Ride height:

Nothing below 3”

 

Aero:

Same as AI rules

 

Track width:

AI rules are base, extra 1’’ allowed for 295s, 1.5” for 305s and 2” allowed for 315s. Penalty comes with the tire width. Tolerance on trackwidth  is + .5”

 

Suspension:

OE double A-arm or Strut is base, aftermarket SLA +.1. AI suspension rules apply.

 

Example: 94 mustang weighing 3187 post race with driver running on 275 toyos. That car would start with an 8.3 base then add +.3 for close ratio trans, +.1 for SLA and +.1 for 14" brakes. That would put it at a 8.8:1 weight to power or torque max ratio. So 3187 / 8.8 = 362 max HP/TQ

 

Everything else not mentioned here must comply with AI rules

 

Note: While we don’t want to make people feel that the rules are a moving target, It is near impossible to nail everything perfectly right out the gate. The rules will be governed by a committee made up of the racers themselves and if something is out of whack and not conducive to fair competition, changes will be made.

[marshallmosty]

All, regarding ABS, we are going to collect more data on 22-Oct at the final TX region event on a S197 car which will be equipped with both the Stock ABS unit and the GT500 HCU and FR500S "race" module. This data will be used to determine what action, if any, is necessary to level the playing field, WRT ABS.

 

Testing will be done "back to back" on the same tires, pads, etc.

 

How about a session with it turned off - ie, pull the fuse.... that'd make it really informative!

 

Ed,

We can certainly do that. I just need to see if we can obtain a "Stig" that is capable of threashold braking. The owner has driven ABS it's entire life and I don't know if he's capable (no hurt feelings here) of runningn 99.99% with it "off".

[UBR]

Corey,

 

Thanks for posting the Outlaw rules again. I had a couple of questions now that you have a season nearly complete. You said the top 3 cars were within 0.6 s. What were the make/body type? All S197s?

 

Also, on the HP/TQ ratio. Is it equal between the 2? Only HP? Or do you average both to get your "target"? We are running pushrod, stroked FRPP Boss blocks in both the Fox and the S197. They are torquey motors and even with restrictors and cams, it is tough to get HP=Tq.

 

Lastly, since you are going to Data Aq systems instead of the dyno, do you have good data to show consistency across varied conditions, tracks, engine configs. I think the systems are consistent on the same car, under similar conditions. I haven't seen anything posted that they are consistent across varied platforms, conditions, days.

 

Thanks,

 

J

[svttim]

OK, so Im a bit new at this so Help me out. I go to to the AI rules and I read:

2. Intent

The American Iron Series Rules encourage each competitor to create an aftermarket-sourced

configuration that will make their car perform at an optimum level. The intent of the rules is to allow

competitors to use a combination of parts that will increase the performance and competitiveness of the

vehicle and create promotional exposure for vendors. It is the intent of the series to serve as a “showcase”

for aftermarket tuners and manufacturers and to create tremendous exposure for their products and

services while providing a friendly, accommodating, and challenging environment for the series drivers.

This approach is intended to create a reciprocal relationship that will encourage the aftermarket tuners to

give their full support and attention to the competitors in the series.

 

Here where Im confused

 

So, Ford Racing, an aftermarket tuner, does exactly this and should be penalized for it? Why?

 

Why would anyone, including GM, invest time with AI considering the above?

 

 

 

Given that the class alows 1960 or newer, why not make allowances to older cars so they compare to the newer chasis rather than restrict what is developed and, in direct conflict to the class Intent? Now, I do understand that some things may not be available for an older car. Then again, it may encourage someone to manufacture parts not currently available.

[rpoz27]

Conversely, why can't the new cars comply with the previous rules? Rules creep is killing the series formula when pro teams and Factory backing get involved.

 

 

Marshal, while we LOVE your idea to do ACTUAL TESTING of theories, we aren't quite sure the car/driver you have chosen is ideal. (find a better Stig)...or the track for that matter which has ALL straight line braking zones prior to slow 2nd gear turns. Find someone with a lot of S197 experience under their belt (Wayne Manor would be great as he owns a 302S car) and not a car that routinely gets beat by CMC2 cars. However, why test at all? Ford felt compelled to build better units than the stock ABS for a reason, and spent a ton of money doing it. They are better. Pretty simple, but complicated because there aren't other easily obtained options for ALL of the other platforms Racing in this series. The rest of us are faced with R&D time/expense to figure out how to catch up when the real issue at hand is purchasing a used 05 GT brake module and putting it in whatever S197 shows up at the track. Cheap.

 

While we (two AI cars in this household) like the idea of leveling the field on track width, it would honestly cost us a fortune in wheels and hubs to SAFELY get 2" of track width...not to mention body work to cover it. How about doing what CMC does and give weight breaks to the older chassis? So with a weight break, then penalty for ABS, our cars stay the same as rules dating back to 2005...ready NO COST!

 

Look to other series that are being affected by newer chassis and follow what they are doing....as in making the new cars comply with the old rules or penalizing the newer cars with weight.

 

AI Rules set 2007.1 FTW.

 

Here is a data point for you. Last weekend at a 24 hours of lemons event, we had 5 former AI racers in a huddle asking why we weren't racing AI anymore. Hands down was "I don't want to have to buy a Boss 302S to go race anymore!"

 

Also, "cost containment" does not translate to buying a turn-key $80,000 race car with $2,000 sets of tires or requiring any car more than 6 years old to spend 1000's of dollars to remain competitive. It means SPENDING LESS MONEY!!!!! If that goal isn't going to be the #1 point going forward, I believe Mr. Algozine is correct that this may not be the right series for some of us. Clear intent will go a long way in helping many of us make up our minds to stay or go.

 

Just a racing girl's opinion!