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Bnjmn

Has 2012 Nats AWD dyno been reserved yet? & TT rules nit

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brkntrxn
BS, that's like asking the Spec Miata guys to spend an extra 50 bucks at regs because it takes 10x longer to check for their well documented but always new cheating methods at impound. Just because you Vette's "hide" in the shadows yet still dominate the podiums doesn't give you the right to speak for the other 300 participates.

 

Exactly how do we hide in the shadows when the Vettes were the ones going across the scale and dyno all the time?

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Cobra4B
Exactly how do we hide in the shadows...

Titanium lugs and nitrous in the cage and frame

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sperkins
nitrous in the cage and frame

Tires hold more.

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Brent
Don't forget that some vettes dominate in HPDE too.

Only the ones with titanium lugnuts

 

I have a feeling that one will never die down.

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Bnjmn

You will never have to worry about dying if you have Ti lugnuts because they are the best safety upgrade on the market.

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Cobra4B
You will never have to worry about dying if you have Ti lugnuts because they are the best safety upgrade on the market.

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knock1retard

To start I wanted to squash the whole AWD Turbo cars are the only ones who can cheat or are more likely to cheat. Almost any car can cheat with different mapping especially those with more advanced forms of engine management (EMS). Most EMS have options for map switching which can drastically change the power output for even a NA car by 10-30+whp pending displacement, ignition timing, and variable cam timing. Some might say that some turbo cars have variable cams and that is also a way to cheat peak power...actually the cam advance is only used during spool and midway through the rpm band is zeroed for peak power.

Yes boost can easily affect hp but a car that uses a turbo system generally tends to be heavier and then add an AWD components into the mix and you get even more weight. Just cause a car is AWD and turbo charged doesn't mean it has an advantage. There are so many things that change with a forced induction car that most don't know about. I said earlier that boost can easily affect hp...yes this is true, but it also isn't. Almost all turbo cars run lower hp than even what a dyno graph will show after being out on track for as little as 5min. Yes the dyno graph supplied has three plots but it isn't the same...I'm not going to elaborate here as it will be lengthy. Any turbo car running for a any duration of time will slowly degrade hp as heat starts to build depending on how efficient the setup is. NA cars will not degrade 10-30hp on the track and over any duration have a higher average hp during any session. I figure everyone would remember the last two generations of Corvettes aren't AWD nor are they forced induction and they have no problem competing or winning!!!...maybe I'm the only one who notices this?

I agree that having an AWD dyno at the track would be nice but it doesn't have enough impact or certainty to justify it. A dyno is only one aspect of the whole equation and until there is an industry standard dyno then it is just a small tool with a large expense for a small field of cars.

 

I believe GPS is the future to monitoring all cars in this level of motorsports. Lets consider that "most" of the turbo cars competing are newer cars (within the last 15yrs) and many of them are running an EMS that is OBD/CAN based or has a CAN/Multiplexer output that can easily be inputted to a GPS unit. What NASA should look into is a company who has GPS systems like this, such as AIM Sports, and make it a standard for their organization and make the participants purchase the unit for their own car. I know some would say OMG!, or FU!, EAD!, but this would be no different than AMB transponder that all the TT and Race Groups had to purchase. It would be a one time expense that would have multiple uses. I will use AIM since I most familiar with this and they are a motorsport based company and not just video. AIM just came out with the Solo which is a fairly small unit that incorporates GPS, true motorsports data acquisition, and a lap display for in the car just to name a few features. The unit costs no more than $699 and is compatible with OBD, CAN, and many motorsports EMS. They have a cheaper stand alone model ($399) for those with cars that don't meet the requirements of the more advance model and all are video ready with the Smarty Cam for integrated video graphics. This would be an example of equipment needed for all cars not just the AWD Turbo guys.

The dyno doesn't monitor the car while on track where the GPS system would and when coupled with data acquisition one could verify the data against past data and a supplied dyno graph that has a boost plot or any plot need to verify the car. Parameters like boost, ignition timing, accel-G, A/F ratio and many many others could be recorded. This would also eliminate the "stupid loosely enforced if we catch you we might do something but probably not unless someone stomps their feet and protests security tape". Participants should not be hindered from making small changes to their engines programs if something is wrong or need an official to watch over them while doing it. A few milliseconds of fuel or a degree of timing up or down here or there will not make a car and since the data acquisition system would be in place there would be proof if there was foul play.

Example:

NASA official : Sir your lap times are 3 seconds faster than any of your previous times putting you in the top position so you'll need to submit your data for that session.

GTR Driver : Sure I can submit that data for you let me get that...here you are.

NASA Analyst : Sir I show here you were running 8psi more boost on average and I show this during your fastest lap when I cross-reference the data with our timing system, so we will DQ that session and you'll need to correct this issue.

GTR Driver : Oh really! Weird, I don't know how that happened. I took a huge crap right before that season must be it so can you let this slide.

NASA Analyst : Well considering your car is already a heavy pig I doubt it was your bowel movements that increased your boost pressure so NO we won't be able to let it slide.

GTR Driver : But I own a GTR!

NASA official : Sorry sir you'll need to correct the issue or be disqualified.

 

 

Someone also said all turbo cars should run the same amount of boost...this might be one of the funnest things I've heard in a while! This is not a spec class! The same amount of boost, say 1bar, does not mean all cars will make the same amount of power. Two different four cylinder cars will make totally different hp at that boost level and don't get me started on displacement and volumetric efficiency.

Someone also made a comment about boost fluctuation and yes this is normal. Air density plays a huge roll in boost fluctuations and directly correlates to what I said earlier about turbo cars being on track for more than 5min or a duration of time. When looking at data from the ecu (data acquisition) you will see that boost pressure will always start out higher and slowly tapper off to a lower level as heat builds up in the system. Obviously this degrades hp for multiple reasons and would need to be considered when looking at this if NASA were to adopt this method of regulation. Unfortunately I don't think there is a perfect answer to this issue.

I also wanted to add that more boost doesn't always mean more power as compressor efficiency can actually decrease hp if exceeded since it will induce a tone of heat. If the intercooler system can not absorb and dispense with this increased heat hp will drop rapidly and often harshly.

People are always quick to point fingers at something other than themselves when it comes to any competition, yet the Corvettes seem to be doing just fine and winning more than any one AWD Turbo car. Funny thing is I hear most of the AWD Turbo guys complain about the Corvettes and they have neither AWD nor forced induction. In my opinion if you don't own and track a Turbo / AWD car you should watch what you say, it's not always an advantage!

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kbrew8991

"omg our cars are heavy"

 

should I reply with:

1.) all frogs have warts, deal with it

 

or

 

2.) when you're in a hp/weight class, or a class that consideres hp/weight - its not a great disadvantage to be heavy as you're allowed more hp.

 

(choose your own thread adventure! To continue, flip to page... )

 

If I end up having to toss my Traqmate in the garbage and buy one of their direct competitors similar product instead just to be legal I'm going to track you down and kick you in the junk btw. We don't have to purchase the dyno, just time on it. I feel that if you want to put whatever data system in my car for compliance you (NASA) can supply that as well. You should see how much whining there is over transponders amoung people moving up from HPDE. And they're able to buy them used at $200ish. Add on a $900 data system to that? Seesh!

Edited by Guest

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TurboShortBus

Suggestion for 2013 rules: All cars must run carburetors and be 2WD. That should solve it.

 

Mark

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wlfpkrcn1
Suggestion for 2013 rules: All cars must run carburetors and be 2WD. That should solve it.

 

Mark

 

That's not going to help your faulty suspension design!

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TurboShortBus
That's not going to help your faulty suspension design!

Nope, but it will silence the AWD/EFI/flip-a-switch-for-5000-magical-horsepower complainers.

 

Mark

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Balroks
To start I wanted to squash the whole AWD Turbo cars are the only ones who can cheat or are more likely to cheat. Almost any car can cheat with different mapping especially those with more advanced forms of engine management (EMS). Most EMS have options for map switching which can drastically change the power output for even a NA car by 10-30+whp pending displacement, ignition timing, and variable cam timing. Some might say that some turbo cars have variable cams and that is also a way to cheat peak power...actually the cam advance is only used during spool and midway through the rpm band is zeroed for peak power.

Yes boost can easily affect hp but a car that uses a turbo system generally tends to be heavier and then add an AWD components into the mix and you get even more weight. Just cause a car is AWD and turbo charged doesn't mean it has an advantage. There are so many things that change with a forced induction car that most don't know about. I said earlier that boost can easily affect hp...yes this is true, but it also isn't. Almost all turbo cars run lower hp than even what a dyno graph will show after being out on track for as little as 5min. Yes the dyno graph supplied has three plots but it isn't the same...I'm not going to elaborate here as it will be lengthy. Any turbo car running for a any duration of time will slowly degrade hp as heat starts to build depending on how efficient the setup is. NA cars will not degrade 10-30hp on the track and over any duration have a higher average hp during any session. I figure everyone would remember the last two generations of Corvettes aren't AWD nor are they forced induction and they have no problem competing or winning!!!...maybe I'm the only one who notices this?

I agree that having an AWD dyno at the track would be nice but it doesn't have enough impact or certainty to justify it. A dyno is only one aspect of the whole equation and until there is an industry standard dyno then it is just a small tool with a large expense for a small field of cars.

 

I believe GPS is the future to monitoring all cars in this level of motorsports. Lets consider that "most" of the turbo cars competing are newer cars (within the last 15yrs) and many of them are running an EMS that is OBD/CAN based or has a CAN/Multiplexer output that can easily be inputted to a GPS unit. What NASA should look into is a company who has GPS systems like this, such as AIM Sports, and make it a standard for their organization and make the participants purchase the unit for their own car. I know some would say OMG!, or FU!, EAD!, but this would be no different than AMB transponder that all the TT and Race Groups had to purchase. It would be a one time expense that would have multiple uses. I will use AIM since I most familiar with this and they are a motorsport based company and not just video. AIM just came out with the Solo which is a fairly small unit that incorporates GPS, true motorsports data acquisition, and a lap display for in the car just to name a few features. The unit costs no more than $699 and is compatible with OBD, CAN, and many motorsports EMS. They have a cheaper stand alone model ($399) for those with cars that don't meet the requirements of the more advance model and all are video ready with the Smarty Cam for integrated video graphics. This would be an example of equipment needed for all cars not just the AWD Turbo guys.

The dyno doesn't monitor the car while on track where the GPS system would and when coupled with data acquisition one could verify the data against past data and a supplied dyno graph that has a boost plot or any plot need to verify the car. Parameters like boost, ignition timing, accel-G, A/F ratio and many many others could be recorded. This would also eliminate the "stupid loosely enforced if we catch you we might do something but probably not unless someone stomps their feet and protests security tape". Participants should not be hindered from making small changes to their engines programs if something is wrong or need an official to watch over them while doing it. A few milliseconds of fuel or a degree of timing up or down here or there will not make a car and since the data acquisition system would be in place there would be proof if there was foul play.

Example:

NASA official : Sir your lap times are 3 seconds faster than any of your previous times putting you in the top position so you'll need to submit your data for that session.

GTR Driver : Sure I can submit that data for you let me get that...here you are.

NASA Analyst : Sir I show here you were running 8psi more boost on average and I show this during your fastest lap when I cross-reference the data with our timing system, so we will DQ that session and you'll need to correct this issue.

GTR Driver : Oh really! Weird, I don't know how that happened. I took a huge crap right before that season must be it so can you let this slide.

NASA Analyst : Well considering your car is already a heavy pig I doubt it was your bowel movements that increased your boost pressure so NO we won't be able to let it slide.

GTR Driver : But I own a GTR!

NASA official : Sorry sir you'll need to correct the issue or be disqualified.

 

 

Someone also said all turbo cars should run the same amount of boost...this might be one of the funnest things I've heard in a while! This is not a spec class! The same amount of boost, say 1bar, does not mean all cars will make the same amount of power. Two different four cylinder cars will make totally different hp at that boost level and don't get me started on displacement and volumetric efficiency.

Someone also made a comment about boost fluctuation and yes this is normal. Air density plays a huge roll in boost fluctuations and directly correlates to what I said earlier about turbo cars being on track for more than 5min or a duration of time. When looking at data from the ecu (data acquisition) you will see that boost pressure will always start out higher and slowly tapper off to a lower level as heat builds up in the system. Obviously this degrades hp for multiple reasons and would need to be considered when looking at this if NASA were to adopt this method of regulation. Unfortunately I don't think there is a perfect answer to this issue.

I also wanted to add that more boost doesn't always mean more power as compressor efficiency can actually decrease hp if exceeded since it will induce a tone of heat. If the intercooler system can not absorb and dispense with this increased heat hp will drop rapidly and often harshly.

People are always quick to point fingers at something other than themselves when it comes to any competition, yet the Corvettes seem to be doing just fine and winning more than any one AWD Turbo car. Funny thing is I hear most of the AWD Turbo guys complain about the Corvettes and they have neither AWD nor forced induction. In my opinion if you don't own and track a Turbo / AWD car you should watch what you say, it's not always an advantage!

 

Exactly, but I wasn't gonna put the time in to type all that But ya it'd be nice to find something under $400 for global distribution that can be left alone or uber upgraded.

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Bnjmn

And run distributors? Otherwise the problem remains.

And spec carbs? You know there is a whole industry that makes cheater carbs for circle track racing. And cheater traction control.

 

Let's rephrase - if GPS and/or "trust me" is good enough for awd cars - why isn't it good enough for 2wd cars?

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knock1retard
"omg our cars are heavy"

 

should I reply with:

1.) all frogs have warts, deal with it

 

or

 

2.) when you're in a hp/weight class, or a class that consideres hp/weight - its not a great disadvantage to be heavy as you're allowed more hp.

 

(choose your own thread adventure! To continue, flip to page... )

 

If I end up having to toss my Traqmate in the garbage and buy one of their direct competitors similar product instead just to be legal I'm going to track you down and kick you in the junk btw. We don't have to purchase the dyno, just time on it. I feel that if you want to put whatever data system in my car for compliance you (NASA) can supply that as well. You should see how much whining there is over transponders amoung people moving up from HPDE. And they're able to buy them used at $200ish. Add on a $900 data system to that? Seesh!

 

This is good example of a slight over reaction, but if you feel there is a better suggestion I have yet to see it. No matter what rules are posted people will always find something wrong with them. My comments on the data acquisition are just a suggestion nothing more. As I said I would use AIM as an example since I was familiar with it and unless you have vested interest in Traqmate other than your own personal unit then I see no reason why you would have made that comment. I never said AIM was the only system in the world worth buying. I could have suggested Motec, Stack, Pi, Gem, or even Magneti Marelli which costs more than some peoples cars.

 

Buying used transponders is an individual decision, but a new one is $400 or more. In order for used ones to exist people must buy new ones! If you're going to get upset about cost I would hate to see when you need to repurchase something with an FIA expiration.

Here I thought forums were a place where you could post your opinions...I must be wrong

 

Competition cost money get over it!

 

Resorting to violence is childish!

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Balroks
And run distributors? Otherwise the problem remains.

And spec carbs? You know there is a whole industry that makes cheater carbs for circle track racing. And cheater traction control.

 

Let's rephrase - if GPS and/or "trust me" is good enough for awd cars - why isn't it good enough for 2wd cars?

 

It's good for anything, they're just at the half way point of using one or the other or both or neither. Just wait to see what mgmt decides, it ain't even close to nats yet.

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knock1retard
Let's rephrase - if GPS and/or "trust me" is good enough for awd cars - why isn't it good enough for 2wd cars?

 

I agree but I think for all cars to hit the dyno it will increase entry cost as I don't think the AWD cars should pay for it alone.

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TurboShortBus
And run distributors? Otherwise the problem remains.

And spec carbs? You know there is a whole industry that makes cheater carbs for circle track racing. And cheater traction control.

Come on, now. My tongue-in-cheek purpose in mentioning carburetors refers to the fact that you cannot alter their settings with a flip of a switch or other stealth means between pit-in and the impound area without opening the hood. I never mentioned spec carbs, as you get with Saturday night roundy-rounders. "Cheater" carbs would not exist with dyno-based classing.

 

Obviously, this would not be possible, but it certainly would stop the whining.

 

Hurry! Only 8 months left to complain about something!

 

Mark

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brkntrxn
It's good for anything, they're just at the half way point of using one or the other or both or neither. Just wait to see what mgmt decides, it ain't even close to nats yet.

 

 

THAT is a logical statement.

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Tcal

Knock1retard, I'm with you!...but didnt want to write that much.

 

Even if they had an awd dyno at the track, cheating could still be done by anyone. I like the idea of looking past the expense of the dyno and using gps. And after reading this entire thread, I am shocked...never would have guessed that vette guys would be complaining about anything. Those "out of the box race cars" rule every class. Hell, the only reason they didnt win every TT class they are in is bc Danny wasnt there

 

Excited for this next season and seeing everyone....regardless of rules/dyno/gps

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UKRBMW

Here is what I find amazing - so far all the folks with AWD cars have been trying to "tell us" how fair GPS monitoring is. Why aren't you speaking out to get an AWD dyno or figure out a way to equal things out?

 

It's unfortunate that this group feels they are "special" and it's ok to not follow actual written rules...

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UKRBMW
BS, that's like asking the Spec Miata guys to spend an extra 50 bucks at regs because it takes 10x longer to check for their well documented but always new cheating methods at impound. Just because you Vette's "hide" in the shadows yet still dominate the podiums doesn't give you the right to speak for the other 300 participates.

 

Matt - I don't run a Vette, just another guy in favor of applying rules as they are written equally to all competitors.

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Tcal
Here is what I find amazing - so far all the folks with AWD cars have been trying to "tell us" how fair GPS monitoring is. Why aren't you speaking out to get an AWD dyno or figure out a way to equal things out?

 

It's unfortunate that this group feels they are "special" and it's ok to not follow actual written rules...

 

 

You are an idiot.

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UKRBMW
Here is what I find amazing - so far all the folks with AWD cars have been trying to "tell us" how fair GPS monitoring is. Why aren't you speaking out to get an AWD dyno or figure out a way to equal things out?

 

It's unfortunate that this group feels they are "special" and it's ok to not follow actual written rules...

 

 

You are an idiot.

 

Thanks - glad we could have an intelligent conversation.

 

I felt the need to add. Calling me an idiot is certainly your right, even though you don't know me. But, again, keeping fairness in mind, how many AWD competitors emailed Greg and asked to NOT to dyno the other competitors and rely strictly on GPS data? So far everybody in this thread is concentrating on the fact that "people who want to cheat will cheat with dyno or GPS or whatever". Even if that's true we still make every attempt at preventing cheating. Not being able to get dynoed most certainly puts all AWD results in question regardless of how they place.

 

Now, I don't even know if you run AWD car or not, but if it was me I would be uncomfortable with having my results questioned every time I run. In the case of comments from others in this thread - it apparently doesn't bother them.

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knock1retard
Here is what I find amazing - so far all the folks with AWD cars have been trying to "tell us" how fair GPS monitoring is. Why aren't you speaking out to get an AWD dyno or figure out a way to equal things out?

 

It's unfortunate that this group feels they are "special" and it's ok to not follow actual written rules...

 

This is not true! I'm the first to agree with equality but the first time the AWD dyno is implemented, entry fees will increase across the board. Then there will be those who stomp their feet crying and then ask why cost went up when the AWD dyno should be paid for by the dozen or less cars that need it. My first comment would be you wanted equality and you got it. The cost should be shared equally no different than the use of the current machine being considered in past entry fees.

 

There will never be an answer to this that will make everyone happy.

Edited by Guest

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Tcal
Here is what I find amazing - so far all the folks with AWD cars have been trying to "tell us" how fair GPS monitoring is. Why aren't you speaking out to get an AWD dyno or figure out a way to equal things out?

 

It's unfortunate that this group feels they are "special" and it's ok to not follow actual written rules...

 

 

You are an idiot.

 

Thanks - glad we could have an intelligent conversation.

 

Intelligent? So you honestly thing AWD guys think they are special and don't have to follow the rules? Yes I stand by my assessment of you. We follow the rules that NASA tells us to follow. I understand the situation and too think things should be equal. I don't speak for everyone but feel that what we are trying to say is that there might be better technology to make things fair other than a dyno...because just as talked about earlier, someone could just flick a switch before the dyno and down the hp...so what did the dyno accomplish. Once again I agree with knock1retard!

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