heavychevy Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Seriously AWD guys how can you argue with this statement? If some competitors (2wd cars) have the chance to get DQ'd over 1 hp and have that hanging over there head before we can claim our prize why shouldn't you? I would say for Nationals podium = dyno period no exceptions! This would save the cost of renting an AWD dyno - pack 'em up and take them to the AWD dyno shop - and to be fair to our AWD brotheren tell them what dyno shop will be used for compliance testing. They should have the chance to check and tune there car on the dyno they may/will be tested on for compliance. All of the cars I set up end up going on the "NASA" dyno the Tuesday or Wednesday before Nationals so that we know we are not over or giving anything away. This requires some planning ahead but I think this is the only way to make things fair across the board. It can be argued because as mentioned before the nearest AWD dyno is ~ an hour away from the track at Nationals. Are people supposed to keep going back and forth taking 3-5 hours each time (load, drive, unload,dyno,load drive)? How many laps can you complete like that? If there isn't a dyno on site, it's almost going to be moot unless there is a formal protest filed. Besides, it's the competitors responsibilty to make sure their car is legal, NOT to provide the means to confirm it. Why stop their and just make people in stock classes tear their engines down to make sure there aren't any illegal internal modifications? Some of the modern AWD systems can be dyno'd in RWD, it would be a whole lot easier to find out what the difference in HP and make a 5-10 minute drive shaft change than any of this nonsense. The only way to really confirm compliance with NASA's current impound ability would be to compare data. Anyone on the podium should have to submit data from their fastest laps and have that data compared with others in their class. All results should be unofficial until the data can be scrutinized. Of course this would be a TON of work for NASA officials, but it would be the most accurate. On site dyno's can be beat with enough effort/money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I seem to remember my buddy's AWD 1991 DSM (Talon/Eclipse/Laser) having a switch on the transfer case that would allow the car to be either RWD or FWD for dyno purposes. I'm guessing that this feature doesn't exist on newer AWD cars...or does it? Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varkwso Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Seriously AWD guys how can you argue with this statement? If some competitors (2wd cars) have the chance to get DQ'd over 1 hp and have that hanging over there head before we can claim our prize why shouldn't you? I would say for Nationals podium = dyno period no exceptions! This would save the cost of renting an AWD dyno - pack 'em up and take them to the AWD dyno shop - and to be fair to our AWD brotheren tell them what dyno shop will be used for compliance testing. They should have the chance to check and tune there car on the dyno they may/will be tested on for compliance. All of the cars I set up end up going on the "NASA" dyno the Tuesday or Wednesday before Nationals so that we know we are not over or giving anything away. This requires some planning ahead but I think this is the only way to make things fair across the board. Wow what a thread, this may be quite lengthy to address all points. 1) Nobody has said that they do not want a dyno or that they do not want an even playing field in this thread. To my recollection all the arguments have been made as to the effectiveness of a dyno for any car, and the cost, given the relatively small number of Turbo contending cars. 2) Rather insensitive comment to pack them out and ship them, are YOU going to pay for it, what about lost track time, YOU going to pay for my tuner to fly up to Ohio and stay for the week to tune my car? I think not, so please give some thought to your comments that is certainly not a level playing field. You want a dyno, are you willing to pay for it, do you want it that bad, no problem you pay for it and I will go on it as much as you will like. I had so many GPS units in my car that I am convinced there is one up my ass still. 3) Scott is correct nobody accused AWD of cheating, but rather that it would be easier to cheat which was very technically and gracefully explained in the rather lengthy post, which in effect shows how little people know about Turbo cars but yet they make comments as to their ability to cheat. 4) There are some rumblings about the C5 guys cheating as well. Why is it that every time somebody wins everyone comes out of the wood work and accuses people of cheating? More often than not they do not know the people nor the cars, these guys have worked exceptionally hard in setting up their cars to the max of the rule book and I will tell you they are all exceptional drivers. And by the way I don’t think they are unbeatable, at the Nationals out of 14 TTA cars 9 C5’S, 2 Evo’s, 2 M3’s 1 FFR, top five, 3 C5’s 2 Evo’s, so what’s with the crazy comments. Build your car to the limit and learn how to drive it and come and play. Personally, I look forward to the day I can make my way up to RA or VIR again and play with those guys, because I know that if you come close to beating them you have done something exceptional, that is how well prepared they are. 5) The claim that only turbo cars can flick a switch and make more power is made by people that seriously are talking out their Ass. You can do the same with NA cars all day long. So why single out FI cars. I don’t care what car you drive if you are a scumbag and want to cheat all it takes is money that’s all. I don’t care if there is a dyno. Gps or lojack whatever, those kind of people will try and circumvent the rules. Lastly, I too agree that there needs to be a dyno for all cars, if that is the rule, you cannot make exceptions for anyone. Do I want to pay higher fees to have one NO, do I want my car to be singled out to be towed at my expense to a dyno 60 miles away and miss my track time or personal time for that matter BIG NO. The technology exists to make dyno’s obsolete in these types of situations, and I truly believe that NASA is heading that way because they realize the difficulties of enforcing a level playing field with such a diverse field of cars. So jubepatient. #5 above. I know I never said you cannot flick a switch on a na car and not add power. I absolutely say you cannot gain significant power in a na engine without internal mods, varible cam, or race gas. I have seen hundreds of dyno runs on Vipers, mod motors, LS motors, GT3, etc. I know you can rig a push to pass button those cars and it would be difficult to detect even with gps. Mostly since the gain is not dramatic. Honestly, on track running with the regulars we can tell whose motor is on for the weekend and whose is off (oil on maf, bent pushrods, etc.). Hiding a significant power gain is hard with equally prepped cars. Awd turbo guys can easily know that also. Like car competition is the best policing since they know all the nuances. For example an LS6 can honestly dyno from a low of 345 to a high of 400. Some motors are better then others fron the factory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awdracer Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I seem to remember my buddy's AWD 1991 DSM (Talon/Eclipse/Laser) having a switch on the transfer case that would allow the car to be either RWD or FWD for dyno purposes. I'm guessing that this feature doesn't exist on newer AWD cars...or does it? Mark It was never quite that easy in the DSM cars. You have to drain the transmission fluid and take the end of the transmission off, remove a c-clip and take out the viscous coupling. Then you had to install a custom splined part that eliminated the coupling. Then replace the end of the transmission. Even if someone did have a switch in the x-fer case, the trans would still try to send power to the rear wheels with the VC in place. None of the modern Subaru or Mitsu cars have that capability either. Also, you guys should not be mad at each other. The fact of the matter is that NASA has created a rule set that they can't (or aren't willing) to enforce. Some people will cheat and it's sickening. And yes an effective "push to pass" setup can be rigged in ANY car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heavychevy Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 I seem to remember my buddy's AWD 1991 DSM (Talon/Eclipse/Laser) having a switch on the transfer case that would allow the car to be either RWD or FWD for dyno purposes. I'm guessing that this feature doesn't exist on newer AWD cars...or does it? Mark In most of them it's not as easy as a switch, but you can unscrew the plastic under panels and unbolt the input shaft that send power to the wheels opposite the engine. I'm know the Porsche and GT-R ones are pretty straight forward and only take a few minutes. Not sure about EVO, STI, Audi etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vettedoctor Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 2) Rather insensitive comment to pack them out and ship them, are YOU going to pay for it, what about lost track time, YOU going to pay for my tuner to fly up to Ohio and stay for the week to tune my car? I think not, so please give some thought to your comments that is certainly not a level playing field. You want a dyno, are you willing to pay for it, do you want it that bad, no problem you pay for it and I will go on it as much as you will like. I had so many GPS units in my car that I am convinced there is one up my ass still. I suggested that all cars that make the podium should have to dyno - if you would have to go off site to dyno then that would take place at the end of the day, I believe that is how they handled that in the past. Paying for towing your car 1 hour to the dyno and 1 hour back is kind of moot don't you? You're coming to Mid-O from Florida but you can't pay for a 1/2 tank to prove to your competition that your car is legal? Who says you have to bring your tuner and tune your car on the dyno used for verification? Rory has done that the last two years and it seems like it works for him. But you can decide for yourself if you want to spend the money to do that. I think that if you make it onto the podium you should get dynoed -period- if it's offsite then it will be dynoed at the end of the day, no loss of track time. I have waited in line to be dynoed for over an hour and a half so taking 2 to 3 hours to dyno offsite isn't that much of a hardship. It can be argued because as mentioned before the nearest AWD dyno is ~ an hour away from the track at Nationals. Are people supposed to keep going back and forth taking 3-5 hours each time (load, drive, unload,dyno,load drive)? How many laps can you complete like that? If there isn't a dyno on site, it's almost going to be moot unless there is a formal protest filed. Besides, it's the competitors responsibilty to make sure their car is legal, NOT to provide the means to confirm it. Why stop their and just make people in stock classes tear their engines down to make sure there aren't any illegal internal modifications? Some of the modern AWD systems can be dyno'd in RWD, it would be a whole lot easier to find out what the difference in HP and make a 5-10 minute drive shaft change than any of this nonsense. The only way to really confirm compliance with NASA's current impound ability would be to compare data. Anyone on the podium should have to submit data from their fastest laps and have that data compared with others in their class. All results should be unofficial until the data can be scrutinized. Of course this would be a TON of work for NASA officials, but it would be the most accurate. On site dyno's can be beat with enough effort/money. I think that the GPS system works great, but there is still somewhat of a double standard. They have been comparing the data between the cars fast laps, however the 2wd cars are the ones that have to pass the dyno test and the GPS data evaluation. The AWD cars only have to pass the GPS evaluation, they could be 5 whp over and no one would know. Is that enough to give them an edge -who knows- but if a 2wd car was over 5 whp they'd be DQ'd. Please tell me that you can see how that is somewhat unfair. All everyone has been saying is that there should be equality in the rules, I'm suggesting that only the cars on the podium be subject to dyno testing - if you run an AWD car you should know ahead of time what dyno will be used for compliance - just like the 2wd cars. You also know ahead of time that you will have to go off site to dyno, so I would recommend verifying what your car makes on that dyno before competition starts. That's what all of my customers do before nationals and we have not had a problem on the dyno. Again these are just my suggestions agree or disagree but they sound pretty logical to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
32EVOIX Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Personally I would love to have an AWD dyno on site that way I can go on it and adjust my weight accordingly. As mentioned before atmospheric conditions can affect power so I, add more weight using dyno numbers used at a different state and different conditions. For all I know I was running way heavy at Ohio but I was not going to take any chances. However, it is not cost prohibitive, given the number of cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlfpkrcn1 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Personally I would love to have an AWD dyno on site that way I can go on it and adjust my weight accordingly. As mentioned before atmospheric conditions can affect power so I, add more weight using dyno numbers used at a different state and different conditions. For all I know I was running way heavy at Ohio but I was not going to take any chances. However, it is not cost prohibitive, given the number of cars. If you have a dyno reclass, Your HP/wt is set. You cannot adjust weight to accommodate your excessive or lack of HP.In other words- You cannot make more HP than your reclass and/or cannot weigh less than your reclass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varkwso Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Personally I would love to have an AWD dyno on site that way I can go on it and adjust my weight accordingly. As mentioned before atmospheric conditions can affect power so I, add more weight using dyno numbers used at a different state and different conditions. For all I know I was running way heavy at Ohio but I was not going to take any chances. However, it is not cost prohibitive, given the number of cars. If you have a dyno reclass, Your HP/wt is set. You cannot adjust weight to accommodate your excessive or lack of HP.In other words- You cannot make more HP than your reclass and/or cannot weigh less than your reclass. Most TTB/TTA/TTS cars in discussion are not dyno reclasses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heavychevy Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I suggested that all cars that make the podium should have to dyno - if you would have to go off site to dyno then that would take place at the end of the day, I believe that is how they handled that in the past. Paying for towing your car 1 hour to the dyno and 1 hour back is kind of moot don't you? You're coming to Mid-O from Florida but you can't pay for a 1/2 tank to prove to your competition that your car is legal? Who says you have to bring your tuner and tune your car on the dyno used for verification? Rory has done that the last two years and it seems like it works for him. But you can decide for yourself if you want to spend the money to do that. I think that if you make it onto the podium you should get dynoed -period- if it's offsite then it will be dynoed at the end of the day, no loss of track time. I have waited in line to be dynoed for over an hour and a half so taking 2 to 3 hours to dyno offsite isn't that much of a hardship. I think that the GPS system works great, but there is still somewhat of a double standard. They have been comparing the data between the cars fast laps, however the 2wd cars are the ones that have to pass the dyno test and the GPS data evaluation. The AWD cars only have to pass the GPS evaluation, they could be 5 whp over and no one would know. Is that enough to give them an edge -who knows- but if a 2wd car was over 5 whp they'd be DQ'd. Please tell me that you can see how that is somewhat unfair. All everyone has been saying is that there should be equality in the rules, I'm suggesting that only the cars on the podium be subject to dyno testing - if you run an AWD car you should know ahead of time what dyno will be used for compliance - just like the 2wd cars. You also know ahead of time that you will have to go off site to dyno, so I would recommend verifying what your car makes on that dyno before competition starts. That's what all of my customers do before nationals and we have not had a problem on the dyno. Again these are just my suggestions agree or disagree but they sound pretty logical to me. There is no way to make a 3-4 hr round trip to impound fair to anyone. Plus if you give someone till the end of the event (to know they are on podium) and not impound right off the track, there's far too much time for them to tweak the car. Plus all the time during transport to mess with the car unless you are going to send a NASA official with each person. Let's face it, a dyno off site even for the minority of AWD cars, will be a huge hassle for the drivers and officials. Maybe the effort put into dyno that can still be cheated with enough effort should all go into GPS. The money and effort would have to help the situation. And so no one has to dyno. And have random people out with Radar guns or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clydesdale Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Has someone already suggested renting an AWD instead of a 2WD dyno? My understanding is that 2WD cars will dyno just fine on an AWD dyno. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinny Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 ^^^^ Last year how many dyno's were at nats? I know availability is small for the awd mobile dynojets, but they are out there, also just because they are an awd dyno...doesn't mean they cant run 2wd vehicles also. You can also contact dynojet directly and they can refer you to someone who has a mobile awd unit. I actually had a lengthy conversation with a rep from dynojet a few months ago about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dans2k Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 hey you need another 40pages to beat the hardtop thread come on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILIKETODRIVE Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 hey you need another 40pages to beat the hardtop thread come on Let's at least get 7 more and match 255 thread! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knock1retard Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 I wanted to add that if an AWD dyno is made available for use at the track it would need to be a Mustang Dyno or one that has the rollers connected through the dyno. If not, not all AWD cars will be able to jump on the dyno. An example of this would be the R35 GTR and if dynoed on a non connected roller / hub dyno it can over heat and or damage the transmission. I think that going off site isn't a good idea either. It is a subjective inconvenience even though it sounds like a good compromise to the 2WD guys, they aren't the ones packing it up and driving around to have their car dynoed. Dyno validation solutions should be provided by NASA on site for all cars at a evenly distributed expense. For everything to be truly equal only one dyno should be present at any event. No two dynos read the same even from the same manufacturer with Dynojet being one of the worst! If 1hp will get you disqualified then only one machine should be used at any one event for consistency and accuracy across the field. The old Mitsubishi Galant VR4 (Japan Only) was the only transmission I know of that was able to switch between 2WD and AWD with the removal of a bolt and a swing of a lever. Some of those transmission made it to the U.S. from those doing swaps years ago. I have seen this trans but never used it is 2WD form. This was originally a design with rally use in mind as if something was damaged in the rear of the car or driveshaft the car could be converted into FWD for the completion of the stage for service, but their could be other reasons why they had it designed this way. I do believe that the car would not operate at full power through the two front wheels in FWD mode. None of the U.S. AWD cars that I'm aware of have the ability to go from AWD to 2WD without major work. This isn't even a justified or feasible option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bnjmn Posted January 24, 2012 Author Share Posted January 24, 2012 So where are we on this? Does anyone have estimates of a suitable awd dyno and a 2wd dyno for Nationals? This is a bit more relevant than everyone fantasizing about +20pt A6s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperkins Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 This is a bit more relevant than everyone fantasizing about +20pt A6s. Yeah, but it's a great diversionary tactic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 *crickets* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILIKETODRIVE Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 This is a bit more relevant than everyone fantasizing about +20pt A6s. But Nationals is too soon! It might as well have already happened as far as I'm concerned. We only have so much time to argue about 2013 rules regarding A6s! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L98Terror Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 I've said this many times at Nationals it should be the average of mulitiple laps, for example the best three laps of the day over 4 days. So once you get tested you will need to repeat to win. Also it forces car to run in less than ideal weather just like the racers do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 gives even more of a homefield advantage. Not a fan. But I've been to Mid-O enough times to live with it if it does change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varkwso Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 I've said this many times at Nationals it should be the average of mulitiple laps, for example the best three laps of the day over 4 days. So once you get tested you will need to repeat to win. Also it forces car to run in less than ideal weather just like the racers do. But that is not time trial. That is sequential qualifying Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedengineer Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 I've said this many times at Nationals it should be the average of mulitiple laps, for example the best three laps of the day over 4 days. So once you get tested you will need to repeat to win. Also it forces car to run in less than ideal weather just like the racers do. Yeah that's not really the point of TT. If you want to be more like the racers do, then go race. Fast drivers must be consistent enough to nail pretty much ALL the corners on a single lap, what's the point in making them do it over several sessions? Are you arguing that doing so would mean it would make it tougher for people to cheat? I think not, if they did it for one lap, they could do it for four, what's the difference. It's not really proving anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcindric Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Why not the best lap for each day and total them, then you could add in factors since it is a national championship, be the best if a day rains, dry, cold or damp. might not happen but the winner would be the champion in all elements. JMC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperkins Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Why not the best lap for each day and total them Single fastest lap wins - period. There's nothing more to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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