ILIKETODRIVE Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 actually you don't have to go "back" to HPDE ... if you're not in the running for "free" tires then switch to something else .... like the Hankook Z214's different compounds available ( and considerably cheeper than the Hoosiers) and while they're not quite as quick as the Hoosiers, they'll last quite a bit longer and you can run the compound that's best for you to get the track time you want ... without having to go "back" to being pointed by ( assuming the person in front remembers to look in their mirrors ) x2.....or NT-01's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kubs Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Did I miss where the final ruling was for tire points? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted August 14, 2012 Author National Staff Share Posted August 14, 2012 ---Delayed due to the issue with the new BFG tire and another tire coming out later this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAULB#51v3 Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 Forget the cost, but 11 points gets you 6 seconds a lap. No other 11 point combination in the rules gets you that unless your car is jacked to start with - in which case you wouldn't be competitive anyway. I guess I see the rules as essentially: you can bring a car with some minor mods and street tires and at least run, but just have no chance at being competitive. You get to fill the field so the r-comp guys can get some contingency. In reality, if you take any of the cars running A6's and put them on 200 treadwear tires, would they even be competitive in the next class down? Even with the power/weight ratio of their current class? That's why I asked what the point of the tire rule was. Is it to even out the tires? It sure doesn't seem like it or there'd be a point difference between 200 treadwear and r-comps commensurate with their performance difference, which would be somewhere around 30 points (or at least one full class), not 1/3 that. the cost does enter into it, especially if you start counting them at 30 pts, the tires get even cheaper!. you can spend $20,000 on penske shocks, carbon aero, springs, close ratio gearboxes, testing, or you can spend $1500 on tires and pick up the same? I'd be buying tires all day. I'm not sure there is that much spread in the lap times, and it's very track/car dependent. Lower hp cars that already have a very high % of the lap at WOT are only affected by 2 areas of the track, braking and cornering. higher hp cars that struggle with corner exit grip take advantage of 3 areas of the lap, braking, cornering, AND corner exit., ie, a bigger spread of lap times over slower tires, since the WOT % of the lap goes up drastically and the lap times plummet. IOW, I would expect an A6 to be X secs faster over brand X of tire in TTE, and I would expect the A6 to be X secs times 2x or x3 in a TTA car. I really agree with these guys! What is the biggest single factor besides driver--->It's tires for the most part. I think that anyone that has been doing this for a while knows that if you want to bolt on a reduction of lap time simply go from a RA1, NT01 to a A6. The question is whether the reduction of lap times is equivalent in relationship to the points of other mods vs reduction in lap times. I truely am concerned about rules stability-> which helps grows the club but by the same token having a solid bolt on with a substaintial reduction in lap times for 3-6 points is also not good for our growth IMHO. What are camshafts or cam gears? 6 points- well I doubt a set of camshafts on d series honda are worth even close to a second. Oh a Viper by themselves..ehh? So then it brings us back to how often are we gong to change rules? How much are we going to extrapolate every mod. I don't think we do but something a huge a tires-I would support a change! We could get into everything light cars, heavy cars, long track, short tracks, small displacement mods vs results from large displacement engine mods--so what is the end goal? Part of me says screw it let the chips fall where they fall, the rules are the rules but the proportion of points compared to reduction in lap times vs other mods does seem askew. That said, I think the rules do a amazing job of trying to equalize things, the reality of trying to manage all the variables of every car manufactured is a monumental task, however I would support a bigger tire points spead for the tires closest to a slick. I think it would create a mess to revamp the entire tire range-just look at the tires in question. PaulB#51v3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F430GTRad Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 What I would to see is a penalty for soft DOT-R tires (A6, C91, R1S) in the TTS/TTU/TTR classes. I have data available from California Speedway and plenty from Sebring comparing the A6 to some slicks (Michelin S7/S8, Good Year R430 compound, and Yoko Patron Series slicks). When I ran Sebring in March on brand new Pirelli DH slicks (the ALMS tires), their g-forces were lower than an event I ran on A6 with the same car. I get 8HC out of A6 and 16HC out of R6. So, TTS/TTU/TTR should include a similar points penalty to separate, DOT-R treaded hard tires (R888, NT01 and the likes), DOT-R medium tires (R6, C51, R1, V710), DOT-R soft tires (R1S, Eagle RS, A6, C91) and racing slicks. Currently, only slicks get a 0.75 penalty on the weight/ratio index while an A6 can produce similar tires to plenty of different slicks. Cost of tires is always an issue. There are plenty of scrub slicks available from ALMS/Grand-AM, and other Pro and Pro-AM teams for sale for $300/set average. These scrubs are good for 6 track sessions, they typically have 1HC or 2HC on them from the Pro teams. The same advantages tires bring to TTA through TTF classes, still apply to the SUR classes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balroks Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 What I would to see is a penalty for soft DOT-R tires (A6, C91, R1S) in the TTS/TTU/TTR classes. I have data available from California Speedway and plenty from Sebring comparing the A6 to some slicks (Michelin S7/S8, Good Year R430 compound, and Yoko Patron Series slicks). When I ran Sebring in March on brand new Pirelli DH slicks (the ALMS tires), their g-forces were lower than an event I ran on A6 with the same car. I get 8HC out of A6 and 16HC out of R6. So, TTS/TTU/TTR should include a similar points penalty to separate, DOT-R treaded hard tires (R888, NT01 and the likes), DOT-R medium tires (R6, C51, R1, V710), DOT-R soft tires (R1S, Eagle RS, A6, C91) and racing slicks. Currently, only slicks get a 0.75 penalty on the weight/ratio index while an A6 can produce similar tires to plenty of different slicks. Cost of tires is always an issue. There are plenty of scrub slicks available from ALMS/Grand-AM, and other Pro and Pro-AM teams for sale for $300/set average. These scrubs are good for 6 track sessions, they typically have 1HC or 2HC on them from the Pro teams. The same advantages tires bring to TTA through TTF classes, still apply to the SUR classes. ^This. I know first hand that ~90% of the winning national SCCA/NASA racers in the SUR range use A6's regardless of prizes. Yet get no penalty vs a guy running ANY other compound of DOT where those super soft DOT lap times, as the above stated, are right there with slicks. Makes perfect sense to let the original plan of getting the power/weight however you want, and put the points against ALL tires, not just "dot" vs "slick". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bnjmn Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 People use what they know. The fast slicks (i.e. not listed) have a steep price as well. My data conflicts with the above posting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlfpkrcn1 Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 When can we expect an update to tire points for next year? You have swiftly made ST3 so the PTA guys can make plans for next year. When can us lowly points guy get the same respect? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brkntrxn Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 When can we expect an update to tire points for next year? You have swiftly made ST3 so the PTA guys can make plans for next year. When can us lowly points guy get the same respect? Don't beg for what you don't want Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted October 9, 2012 Author National Staff Share Posted October 9, 2012 We are doing some testing at Buttonwillow this weekend. From there, our next major rules priority is deciding on Tire points for the middle class. We love the middle class! We need to give some points breaks to the middle class now that we have those nasty upper class guys in a tizzy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra4B Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 We are doing some testing at Buttonwillow this weekend. From there, our next major rules priority is deciding on Tire points for the middle class. We love the middle class! We need to give some points breaks to the middle class now that we have those nasty upper class guys in a tizzy. Spoken like a true liberal politician Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted October 9, 2012 Author National Staff Share Posted October 9, 2012 Please note, Brian said that, not me. LOL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted October 9, 2012 Author National Staff Share Posted October 9, 2012 I know, I shouldn't have started it. This might end up being a 100 pager now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obzezzed350 Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Any chance of additional mod factors for tires in ST next year, as F430/Balroks suggested? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperkins Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 We are doing some testing at Buttonwillow this weekend. From there, our next major rules priority is deciding on Tire points for the middle class. We love the middle class! We need to give some points breaks to the middle class now that we have those nasty upper class guys in a tizzy. Understood on the tire points thing, but is it possible to let us know soon about the current adjustments for 275's and 245's? Is there any expectation that the existing rule set may change? There are many of us who begin our builds based on this rule and can't touch a thing until confirmation one way or the other. Thanks.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted October 10, 2012 Author National Staff Share Posted October 10, 2012 Scott, there are no plans to change the Mod Factors for tires in the Adjusted Wt/Hp Ratio (and a certain 255 will still be treated as a 275). I know some are pushing for us to hit this (A6), or that (R1S), or the other (C-91 and RS AC) with Mod Factors and treat them as intermediates approaching non-DOT's, but with the variety of choices now by most of the majors, it is probably best if we just let the competitors decide. Whenever I hear the argument that it is cheaper to run a tire like an R6 over an A6, I think about the one second a lap drop off I would see after my second heat cycle on the R6's. So, ultimately, a new R6 is better than a 2 or 3 heat cycled R6, and a new A6 is better than a three heat cycled A6 (in general, YMMV--which is why it is best to let the competitor decide). Also, my FWD was always much faster with 3-10 heat cycled R6's on the rear than fresh A6's. Again, this is the type of issue that I would consider as a "tweak" for ST1-3/TT1-3 if needed in the future. Also, as much as I was joking about the middle class, I think that the new changes in TT3 and PTA actually change the discussion a little bit regarding tire points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperkins Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Scott, there are no plans to change the Mod Factors for tires in the Adjusted Wt/Hp Ratio. I should have been more specific. Will those same factors apply in the new TT3 and ST3 classes as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted October 10, 2012 Author National Staff Share Posted October 10, 2012 Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 while we're on tires.... at the TX event this past weekend I had a competitor suggest a few ways we could try and limit a driver to one set of tires for an event. They all sounded very feasible actually... and it did seem on the surface it might limit costs such that in the TTR/U/S (to be renamed classes) there might not be so much angst and anxiety over the very soft DOT-Rs, and very expensive and very fast non-DOT tires that are coming from overseas at a $3k set and 4-sec a lap faster pace... The real question is do we want to head down that route - limit someone to one set of tires for a TT event? (barring a mechanical failure of a tire, puncture, etc - similar to OneLap of America tire rules fwiw) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obzezzed350 Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 while we're on tires.... at the TX event this past weekend I had a competitor suggest a few ways we could try and limit a driver to one set of tires for an event. They all sounded very feasible actually... The real question is do we want to head down that route - limit someone to one set of tires for a TT event? (barring a mechanical failure of a tire, puncture, etc - similar to OneLap of America tire rules fwiw) While I don't have the budget for multiple sets of stickers per weekend, but come on. Thats ridiculous, this isn't teeball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 (don't shoot the messenger - I said I'd float that one out there for him...) explain how it's ridiculous? Would you enjoy getting beat by someone that puts on a new set of stickers every session? FWIW this person could be "that guy" but for now is choosing to be a sportsman about it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drivinhardz06 Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 No. Lots of folks run scrubs for warm up sessions or anything but the "money session" and run stickers when it counts. In the long run, having at least two sets to work off of is probably cheaper since you can manage what you have better/longer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obzezzed350 Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Of course I wouldn't enjoy it, but if someone wants to put a new set on for every session/race at a regional event to win a 12 dollar trophy....go for it. Whats next? Only one set for Nationals? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra4B Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 No. Lots of folks run scrubs for warm up sessions or anything but the "money session" and run stickers when it counts. In the long run, having at least two sets to work off of is probably cheaper since you can manage what you have better/longer This. ~Brian 'Stickers Every Session' Bowers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 fair enough, that was in general my thoughts that would be cons against it but again I said I'd float it out there and see Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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