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Greg G.

2013 Rules Consideration--Bump of +13 Point Tire Category

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jcindric

NASA gets the job done on contingencies, and TT is not limited to TTR.TTS,TTU. Just a matter of working on the rules so annual changes do not create huge expenditures for the masses. While TT is not a 40 minute race, most of us get our best lap in laps 2-3.... So we are experiencing a large expenditure per minute, and a quick abuse of our cars.

Jon,

in class......... TT something

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Varkwso

The Hoosier contingency brought TT from good numbers to great numbers. I see 7 car fields in TTE. More often it is the higher classes with 7 car fields. Fewer classes could help maybe.

 

I won with street cars in 2006, 2007, 2008, and 2011 in TT. Scrubs and sticky street tires were the norm in the first three years. They are not anymore. When the prepped cars showed in 2011 I had troubles. 2012 will see very few street cars on the podium.

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Fixxxercask

I am also for base class tire sizes being altered. I still don't understand why TTA is 30mm gap from TTB and the rest are within 10-20mm. TTA at 295 is a little much. I don't think I saw a single TT car running 295 Hoosiers. Basically any base class TTA car has an advantage to get points back because they are going to run smaller tires. Everyone has this advantage, but since TTA's base size is so massive, it's easier for them. They can be more than competitive with 275's or 265's or the no longer legal cheater 255. You can still run a 255 on 17" wheels, but most people have 18" and that goes back to what I was saying no one wants to have to sell all their wheels and buy new ones blah blah blah

 

Anyway... TTA cars will always run smaller tires and get points back because there is no need to run the 295. In fact, according to Hoosiers website the 285 is .1" bigger than the 295. I smell another cheater tire getting banned. Maybe I'll run that massive beast on my Z and eat 7 points for it. If I crush everyone it might be up for debate. Not everyone can run 30mm or 40mm smaller tires. The TTA base class cars could run that 255 cheater tire up until now and get 10 points back. That's just plain not fair. I would have to run 215's on my 3100lb car to get the equivalent points back. That's just plain stupid for me to do. So the TTA base class cars can run 275's which is plenty of tire and still get 4 points back. I would have to run 235's. That's getting a little on the small side for me plus they won't fit my wheels.

 

I am starting the season with the 275's. I might switch to 245's and use my gained points for aero or weight reduction or I will just go all out and get the massive 285.

 

I have no idea what would be fair to do to the base tire classing. Bring TTB up to 275 and some of the others up....bring TTA down...I am open to ideas. I just wanted to share my opinion. Feel free to start blasting me...

 

I won't take offense to anything. Just trying to make some headway and good ideas out there for discussion.

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Varkwso

Counterpoint. TTA is not specially blessed. Most if not all came with 295 stock or bigger. TTB needs to be bumped. The heavy cars in the lower classes need he most help.

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sperkins
TTB needs to be bumped. The heavy cars in the lower classes need he most help.

This

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jcindric

even if TTB is bumped there is a discrepancy, many TTB cars need mods to run larger than 265, so you have to make changes to go to 275 and all your points are to tires..... tough call

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Varkwso
even if TTB is bumped there is a discrepancy, many TTB cars need mods to run larger than 265, so you have to make changes to go to 275 and all your points are to tires..... tough call

 

Many base class TTB cars are stock with 275 or better. * cars always have all their points in tires. If they podium.

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jcindric

Thanks Greg for starting this............ I agree with 350 Z , simply put, NO SUBTRACTION for running smaller tires , just cant go above

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Fixxxercask

I think people can still go up because a lot can, but I would just make sure you take points for it.

 

If the base sizes do not get changed, then maybe limit the size of tire you can go below your base class. Example: TTA cars cannot run smaller than 275. TTB cars cannot run smaller than 245. TTC cars no smaller than 235 and so on. Basically no one can go below 20mm from their base. I know this would effect a lot of people. Maybe make it so it's not all 20mm. Maybe just 10mm for lower classes. This prevents some lighter cars running way smaller tires than their base class and getting points back where as another car in the same class can't because it is much heavier. It's not fair that a TTE car that weighs 3000lbs and another TTE car that weighs 2200lbs have the same tire size. Then again, a lot of other things go into that equation. Who knows??

 

I sometimes feel power and weight play 95% of ruling for the base classing and not enough percentage on other things.

 

For example: my car has no factory camber adjustment in the front. So I automatically have to take 4 points to run camber arms to get camber. Unless I can somehow modify the factory arms to do so. Not all of us have buckets of money or race shops backing us that can fab something on the fly.

 

I am not sure, but how many sports cars don't have factory camber adjustment in the front? I have no idea why Nissan did this. I just wonder if that was taken into account when classing my car. I believe based on it's power/weight ratio it is fairly classed. Mine is TTC and a base model which also means no LSD. So right out of the gate I have to run LSD for 3 points and 4 points for camber arms. I know I don't have to run LSD, but I would be stupid not to. I know if it had factory camber adjustment, they typically do not have enough adjustment to get where you want it, but the car is lowered so I gain more there anyway so the stock camber adjustment would be fine.

 

Does anyone know any other sports car with no factory front camber adjustment or is my car just poorly designed?

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Varkwso
I think people can still go up because a lot can, but I would just make sure you take points for it.

 

If the base sizes do not get changed, then maybe limit the size of tire you can go below your base class. Example: TTA cars cannot run smaller than 275. TTB cars cannot run smaller than 245. TTC cars no smaller than 235 and so on. Basically no one can go below 20mm from their base. I know this would effect a lot of people. Maybe make it so it's not all 20mm. Maybe just 10mm for lower classes. This prevents some lighter cars running way smaller tires than their base class and getting points back where as another car in the same class can't because it is much heavier. It's not fair that a TTE car that weighs 3000lbs and another TTE car that weighs 2200lbs have the same tire size. Then again, a lot of other things go into that equation. Who knows??

 

I sometimes feel power and weight play 95% of ruling for the base classing and not enough percentage on other things.

 

For example: my car has no factory camber adjustment in the front. So I automatically have to take 4 points to run camber arms to get camber. Unless I can somehow modify the factory arms to do so. Not all of us have buckets of money or race shops backing us that can fab something on the fly.

 

I am not sure, but how many sports cars don't have factory camber adjustment in the front? I have no idea why Nissan did this. I just wonder if that was taken into account when classing my car. I believe based on it's power/weight ratio it is fairly classed. Mine is TTC and a base model which also means no LSD. So right out of the gate I have to run LSD for 3 points and 4 points for camber arms. I know I don't have to run LSD, but I would be stupid not to. I know if it had factory camber adjustment, they typically do not have enough adjustment to get where you want it, but the car is lowered so I gain more there anyway so the stock camber adjustment would be fine.

 

Does anyone know any other sports car with no factory front camber adjustment or is my car just poorly designed?

 

Noble.

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drivinhardz06

Just for kicks and grins, based on the sheets (I guess Greg would have this?) can we see what tires the guys on the podiums were running at nationals?

 

I suspect it's heavily hoosier, and heavily A6. So the easy assumption is "hey, these tires are way faster than we are giving pts for it". However, I think you have to take into account they have a great contingency, everybody uses it, and none of the other tire programs have really taken hold because nobody offers one, that has a faster tire. In other words, take away the contingency, and you'd see all types of tire setups including creative street tire ones.

 

Bottom line, if you bump up the A6 and re-spread the points, SOMEWHERE in that new rules set, there will be the next advantage (because it's impossible to get it perfectly fair), and everybody will find it, and start running it. And then it's back to square one.

 

Also noted in a previous post, the rules and prep for a PT car is very different from TT, so where some tires and pts set up may show up as unfair in TT, they may be really fair in PT. Like I said way back, it's hard to quantify.

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Cobra4B

Mark makes a good point. Take away the Ho-Ho contingency and you'd have people running the fast Hankooks and Kumhos again.

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Fixxxercask

Here is what I know.

 

TTA:

1st place: C5Z 255/35/18 A6

2nd place: C5Z 275/35/18 A6

3rd place: EVO 255/35/18 A6

 

TTB:

1st place: C5 255/35/18 A6

2nd place: ????

3rd place: 245/?/? A6

 

I agree about the contingency. I would love to try different tires, but I can't afford to buy them all and have no chance to win any. I won 7 tires in 2011. That helps a lot.

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Varkwso

I know, for a hard fact, that a lot of sticker Hoosiers hit the grid for TT in all classes. Some are won but most are bought. Stickers in other brands are rare due to lack of contingency. If they were faster tires people would run them. I think punishing a TT benefactor is not a good plan.

 

Most HPDE run Hoosiers since they see thier instructors and peers running them.

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Fixxxercask

I never used Hoosiers until I started TT last year. It took me awhile to get used to them and build up enough speed to utilize them.

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D_Eclipse9916
Here is what I know.

 

TTA:

1st place: C5Z 255/35/18 A6

2nd place: C5Z 275/35/18 A6

3rd place: EVO 255/35/18 A6

 

TTB:

1st place: C5 255/35/18 A6

2nd place: ????

3rd place: 245/?/? A6

 

I agree about the contingency. I would love to try different tires, but I can't afford to buy them all and have no chance to win any. I won 7 tires in 2011. That helps a lot.

 

More data points:

 

TTC:

1st place: E36 M3 245/40/17 A6

2nd Place: S2k 225/40/17 A6

 

Everyone has an opinion and of course it would reflect their own class.

 

I personally think I agree some are complaining about the lighter cars running smaller tires is easier than cars such as my heavy 3176lb pig. But every frog has its warts. I would be all for As going up in points, even though it would hurt me, I need that gripper compound in the same tire size for all the weight I have to throw around. I am for increasing them because I personally think the intent is to reduce cost.

 

I am also unsure why we allow points back for running smaller tires, when we do not allow points back for running heavier weight? Running smaller tires on cars tends to force setups like Brian Bowers, a 3000lb+ pig running 245s with 350+whp. That tends to EAT tires more than his base class tire size would, but its faster. Unfortunately youve FORCED him into that setup because it IS faster to get points back and "skate the edge and eat tires". I know this is going to be entirely unpopular but I would suggest reducing the "incentive" or eliminating it all together.

 

Reduces cost by forcing racers to run their base tire class or higher, in 99% of situations allowing the tire to hold on longer; get rid of all these "trial and error" sizing setups (but of course racers are always going to find ways to spend money); and reduce the "lighter cars vs heavier cars" tire parity. It also closes a loophole and parity of the ruleset when your not allowed to get points back for weight.

 

PS- Im going to a 225 from my 245 to get points back for this year, just no other way to compete with the other cars doing it as well. I fully expect it to increase my tire budget this year.

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kbrew8991

You cannot do much in a ruleset to control costs - those that have the ability and desire to find an advantage will spend the money it takes to find it. You can influence it slightly, but that's about it.

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drivinhardz06
You cannot do much in a ruleset to control costs - those that have the ability and desire to find an advantage will spend the money it takes to find it. You can influence it slightly, but that's about it.

 

this

 

bring the tire points down (switch to an R6 or other and free up some points) and we'll just go put $7000 Penske's on the car. A +3 pt widget can be $500 or $10,000

 

Right out of the box, If you FULLY exploit the "free" mods, you'll spend a fortune, tires looks like change found under the backseat. There are 50 other things in the rules that should be changed before tires if this is all about cost.

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Varkwso

So a TTE car running a 205 would no longer get 30mm credit?

 

The A and B is where the consternation hits the most in vocal minority but I know this would hit all classes.

 

Not against it but this is a significant rule change proposal. TTB at 265 is still an issue. Looking at base class list almost none came with this size or smaller on the back. Most come with a stock split.

 

Lots of new wheels will be bought.

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Cobra4B
Running smaller tires on cars tends to force setups like Brian Bowers, a 3000lb+ pig running 245s with 350+whp. That tends to EAT tires more than his base class tire size would, but its faster. Unfortunately youve FORCED him into that setup because it IS faster to get points back and "skate the edge and eat tires".

Hey now... my car is a svelt 2800lbs without me in it! That's pretty good for a Corvette still using stock body panels (no race carbon etc.) And how do you know it's going to eat tires? I think these 245s will last better than the 255s because they're not stretched as much and have more sidewall... but we'll have to wait a few more weeks to find out.

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Cobra4B

So if A6s became +16, and running 20mm under base size was still -4, then a TTA* Z06 would spend all it's points on a set of 275 A6s. You'd have to have a 100% stock car other than free mods. I'd be back to stock sways and brakes etc. I have no desire to race PTA on stock brakes and burn through thinner, more epensive brakes pads at a higher rate. I really think I that point I'd just go play in TTS/ST2 with a half prepped car. I'd instruct and run TT most of the time and race when I have the funds to pay for entry fee. No aspriations to go to Nats at that point.

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Vettedoctor

It would be interesting if the points worked out so a Hoosier R car and a Hoosier A car would be able to run closer in TT and bumping the A to a 16 point tire may do just that. It would make you choose a wider R vs a skinny A. This would make tire selection in PT a no brainer, but it would blur the line in TT a little more.

Just another idea but what about different points for A's in TT than in PT? Since it's more of a gamble to run an A over the course of a race than a couple flying laps?

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Fixxxercask

I do agree the higher classes are the ones that benefit more from the tire down sizing.

 

Like I said before. Maybe just limit the amount you can down size. No more than 20mm or eliminate it all together. Force everyone to run their base tire size. Funny thing is, I can't run my base tire size Hoosier anymore because it is the cheater tire. I only have 18" wheels. I would have to run a different tire manufacturer that offers a 255 in an 18" wheel or just upsize. I could also buy all new 17" wheels and mount 255's to those, but I will have to shell out money. I can sell my sets of 18's and buy 17's or find someone to trade. You know. PITA though. Either way, I would still be down for it because I would just run 275's like I am anyway. Even if I wasn't it would suck, but I think it would be a rule change for the better.

 

Just make the changes fair and not too pricy for the masses or people will go elsewhere.

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Fixxxercask

I think PT would be a no brainer. Just run big R's. TT is still up in the air because it comes down to one lap, not a 40 minute race.

 

I think I am going to back off this thread for a bit and just read through the hundreds of posts. Every time I say something, I think of so many "what ifs". It's hard to make a legit statement or suggestion without it not pertaining to everyone. Deciding on rules must be a PITA.

 

It seems like next year may have some major ones. I just hope it's the end of huge rule changes that could potentially cost lots of money and it equals out the playing field. The playing field isn't that bad anyway, but some can argue that.

 

...and now I sit back and read the deliberating.

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sperkins

SCCA used to be a popular series. Guess what killed it....

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