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Varkwso

Why isn't the FRS killing TTD?

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Varkwso

Is it because there are not many running in NASA?

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kbrew8991

That's a head scratcher? My guy says it's still a little bit too new / pricey (roughly mid-$20k) to be TTD fodder over an E36 M3 ($5-8k ish) or RX8 ($5-8k ish as well) or more modified Miatae (starting even lower but $$ in more mods). I've only seen one compete in my region, and mostly just to collect points due to the driver's other TT2 cars being broken.

 

How would you set up one?

 

TTD no stars, 2775 listed weight for the FR-S and Subaru BRZ twin.

 

225 A6 for +9 net pts

Exhaust after header +2

Cat removal +1

"Basic" shocks +3

Springs +2

Swaybars +2

= 19

 

Maybe?

 

2775 listing, 199 whp limit under TTD cap after adjustment for 245 & narrower DOTs. I don't see it reaching quite that, but what kind of power would we be talking with header back exhaust, E85 reflash, and any other meaningful free mods?

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circuitmstr

because I will whoop that ass!

 

In all seriousness, a fully optimised FRS would be a serious contender!

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Bryancohnracing

Joel Karns ran his at Heartland Park in May in TTE on stock tires, taking the minus points as the OEM tires are undersize for TTD. The car was pretty competitive in stock form. Eric Kuhn's ran his at Putnam in October in similar fashion and I can only assume he went quickly but I don't know how he did.

 

Its just a matter of time before someone builds one right to the rules and does well.

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ILIKETODRIVE

Reclass (dumping maximum weight) could benefit it because I doubt you would get near 199whp without some serious help.

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speedengineer
Reclass (dumping maximum weight) could benefit it because I doubt you would get near 199whp without some serious help.

 

I was told they can get there fairly easily. Reflash and E85 supposedly.

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Varkwso

The E85 tune is killer on this car.

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kbrew8991

First worthwhile google hit on Scion FR-S E85 tune:

http://www.wotauto.com/2013/01/02/scion-frs-subaru-brz-e85-visconti/

claims over 200whp with intake & exhaust

 

other google hits seem to indicate it's not hard to get into the mid 180s with an E85 tune and a power part or two, and mid-high 180s against a 199 cap is about where I start to begin to feel uncomfortable personally.

 

With the baselines seeming to come in around 150-155whp that +35whp claim of that particular tuner (and there are alot of others in the same ballpark) starts to jive pretty well.

 

(cue rest of TTD lobbying for FR-S & BRZ getting an asterix or two.... )

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ILIKETODRIVE

Hmm. I'd like to see a stock dyno then intake/cat-delete/exhaust/E85/tune dyno. Same car. Same day. After that, and only that, would I believe 50-ish whp gains on a naturally-aspirated Subaru engine.

 

You couldn't touch those kinds of gains (33% whp over stock) with a B18C or K20A (both of which have an EXCELLENT flowing head and 11:1/11.5:1 compression, respectively). MAYBE 20%-25%.

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Varkwso
Hmm. I'd like to see a stock dyno then intake/cat-delete/exhaust/E85/tune dyno. Same car. Same day. After that, and only that, would I believe 50-ish whp gains on a naturally-aspirated Subaru engine.

 

You couldn't touch those kinds of gains (33% whp over stock) with a B18C or K20A (both of which have an EXCELLENT flowing head and 11:1/11.5:1 compression, respectively). MAYBE 20%-25%.

 

I have seen one....

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TurboShortBus

Here is a link to the TTD forms for Jon Miller's Scion FR-S, which destroyed the Sebring TTD record in June, only for it to be beaten again by a Miata in October. Note the dyno results on the last page, which were on E85. I have seen other FR-S E85 dyno results that are much closer to 200 whp, though. GPS files on Jon's car were sent to Greg Greenbaum, and he noticed nothing out of place.

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B73wHMd-IvZIaFdXb0Y4cUEwTlk/edit?usp=sharing

 

Rather than hitting these cars with a *, I have suggested to Greg that E85 takes points. Tons of other cars out there cannot run E85 without taking points for fuel pump, fuel lines, fuel injectors, etc. per TT classification forms item C6. IMO, a car with a "free" reflash that can run E85 has an advantage over others that cannot.

 

Mark

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circuitmstr

Jon did destroy the sebring TTD record, which I later beat with my miata.

However in Johns defense, he was only using 16 points (stock header), he wasnt on stickers or even close, but most of all, his car is not a fully optimised TT car. It is still in full daily driven street form. There would be much to be gained in my opinion by optimising weight distribution by removing weight and more appropriately adding it back among other things. With more work his car could be a good bit faster. here is Jon's record video:

But now that I think about it, I was only using 16 points also, similiarly cycled out tires (with a flat spot to the cords on the RF), and I have a poorly optimised powerband for a dyno classed miata (only 116tq). I have several improvments scheduled. Here is my sebring record lap:

 

All in all, I think the FRS should go toe to toe with the best of the best D cars around.

Wait, I mean, yes it is a cheater car and should be assessed a penalty

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sperkins
Its just a matter of time before someone builds one right to the rules and does well.

That's a good way to get booted from your class, or better yet have your class completely eliminated.

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Sterling Doc

I don't think we've seen the twins' potential yet. Time, money, and inertia. Interestingly, most of the developed car have been on the Pro tour autocross circuit, where they have done well.

 

A truly optimized car would be a near $35K investment right now. There are some expensive "free" mods, plus the build described earlier.

 

Carbon fiber driveshaft

Lightweight clutch

Light, wide wheels & A6's.

LIghtweight racing shells & battery to get down to weight

 

I will work on mine over the winter, and it will be better, but not truly optimized.

I have too many Toyo bucks to get A6's right away, so we will see how it does on RR's.

 

I am looking forward to trying an E85 tune. Headers also seem to be quite worthwhile, but are expensive.

 

It is a great foundation for a race car (or future Spec series).

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Varkwso
Its just a matter of time before someone builds one right to the rules and does well.

That's a good way to get booted from your class, or better yet have your class completely eliminated.

 

 

My biggest fear about buying one and optimizing it to the rules.

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Varkwso
Joel Karns ran his at Heartland Park in May in TTE on stock tires, taking the minus points as the OEM tires are undersize for TTD. The car was pretty competitive in stock form. Eric Kuhn's ran his at Putnam in October in similar fashion and I can only assume he went quickly but I don't know how he did.

 

Its just a matter of time before someone builds one right to the rules and does well.

 

 

How does a TTD base car compete in TTE?

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kbrew8991
How does a TTD base car compete in TTE?

 

When you carry negative points out of the tire section and don't have enough others to end up at 0, 1 or more points in the end. I've competed against a TTE no-star base class car in TTF at Nationals (2007) so it's not like Greg isn't aware it happens or doesn't allow it.

 

KB, "backup" car is TTC no stars, runs in TTD.

 

For a 225 width A6 you don't need a ton of wheel, 17x8 outta do it...

Edited by Guest

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Mike W.

How does a TTD base car compete in TTE?

 

Tires smaller than base class width.

 

"Tire width points assessed or points credited are determined by the difference between the

width of the largest tire on the vehicle and the assigned base tire size as follows:

Equal to or greater than: 10mm +1, 20mm +4, 30mm +7, 40mm +10, 50mm +13,

60mm +16, 70mm +19, 80mm +22, 90mm +25, 100mm +28, 110mm +31, 120mm +34, etc.

Equal to or less than: -10mm -1, -20mm -4, -30mm -7, -40mm -10, -50mm -13, -60mm -16,

-70mm -19, -80mm -22, -90mm -25, -100mm -28, -110mm -31, 120mm -34, etc."

 

Base tire for D is 245mm, stock tire on BRZ/FR-S is a 215mm. So, 215-245= -30mm which equals -7 points. So, that leaves 6 points to play with and still be in E.

 

The adjusted horsepower to weight still has to meet the 16.5 to 1 for E. So, at 2775lbs it has to be less than 171 whp to be legal for E.

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Mike W.

 

When you carry negative points out of the tire section and don't have enough others to end up at 0, 1 or more points in the end. I've competed against a TTE no-star base class car in TTF at Nationals (2007) so it's not like Greg isn't aware it happens or doesn't allow it.

 

Greg is aware of it.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=36810

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kbrew8991

Nationals predated that thread by about 3 years... and it agrees....

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kbrew8991
Hmm. I'd like to see a stock dyno then intake/cat-delete/exhaust/E85/tune dyno. Same car. Same day. After that, and only that, would I believe 50-ish whp gains on a naturally-aspirated Subaru engine.

 

You couldn't touch those kinds of gains (33% whp over stock) with a B18C or K20A (both of which have an EXCELLENT flowing head and 11:1/11.5:1 compression, respectively). MAYBE 20%-25%.

Google son. It's common.

 

A factor may be direct injection - something the Honduhs don't have

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Varkwso
How does a TTD base car compete in TTE?

 

When you carry negative points out of the tire section and don't have enough others to end up at 0, 1 or more points in the end. I've competed against a TTE no-star base class car in TTF at Nationals (2007) so it's not like Greg isn't aware it happens or doesn't allow it.

 

KB, "backup" car is TTC no stars, runs in TTD.

 

For a 225 width A6 you don't need a ton of wheel, 17x8 outta do it...

 

 

Know the tire rule well, did not know you could change a cars base class with it....we could have been running Z06s in TTB back in the bad old days...damn

Edited by Guest

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kbrew8991

FRS/BRZ versus common competitors

 

E36 M3 - one asterix higher AND 400lbs

RX8 - same base class but 270lbs extra

 

What other common TTD cars are there?

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kbrew8991
Know the tirer rule well, did not know you could change a cars base class with it....

You're not changing the base class, you're spending -1pt or more and dropping back. Just like if you spend +20 or more you go up one instead.

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Varkwso
Know the tirer rule well, did not know you could change a cars base class with it....

You're not changing the base class, you're spending -1pt or more and dropping back. Just like if you spend +20 or more you go up one instead.

 

Just have not seen it, or paid attention to it....

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