Rules silly season - please read!

[Tony G]

Why is it that you think you have to run 17X9.5's??..I don't.

Run your 16x8's and your done no need to even talk about it as its a choice ,just like everything else in the rules..its a choice.

You can run a panhard in a Mustang in the rules..but do you..maybe you do and maybe you don't its a choice.

Everything is a choice, you hate a wing don't buy it,you hate a wheel dont use it,you hate a panhard don't put it on,you hate rear control arms than don't use them...its all a choice here you guys,no one is saying you have to have it or do it just because its in the rules.

PS. the 275 R888 is the exact size of the 275 RA1,I have 2 sets of 4 stacked next to each other and they are identical.

Move on the rules are in place,submit to Al for year end rule requests by email.

Tony Guaglione

CMC National Director

[supermac]

Cody,

 

I'm not griping, and if I thought it was insignificant I would not take the time to post here.

 

Please check the current RM Region CMC standings and update your memory from 2007 to 2008 specs. You and I both have a year of running CMC under our belts. You were there in 2007 and painfully absent in 2008. In 2008, although I was not the owner or sole driver of the car, I was there as part of Team Incidental Contact. Come to think of it, I've likely expended more of my personal effort in putting The Pumpkin together than you did with the Barrett-Jackson Camaro.

 

Are we still cool?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have no problem going with either 16" or 17" diameter wheels. I do have a problem with going with the wider 9.5" width wheels and 275 width tires on the foxbody platform because there is no indication that fender modifications will be allowed to prevent the tires rubbing on the bodywork. I also don't think this series should allow fender modifications. I know the Ford products fairly well and there weren't any 9.5" wide wheels from the factory, and from what I'm hearing from the GM camp, they didn't have any either. That is what led me to the conclusion that 9.5" wide wheels should not be part of the series...not because I felt anything narrower wouldn't be competetive.

 

Did anyone happen to notice the 16"x7" Pony wheels, 225 wide tires, and stock sized '86 Mustang rotors/drums we were running in 2008?

 

Dude you might want to know a little bit about what you are talking about before you go opening your keyboard.

Me and Ray stripped that car to a tub, I mean every single bolt.

Then we spent a week of evenings getting all of the seam sealer and brackets out.

Then I put every single one of those bolt's back in by myself.

I know for a fact I spent more time on that car than you and Dave put together. Now if you count useless internet postings you might have me beat.

Now lets talk experience, 6 local races of which I won every one, one crossover at mid-america with a first and a second, a Corey and Lisa event at Hallet which I got schooled, and the Nationals where I finished 2nd to JB as a road racing rookie.

The reason I was absent in 2008 was in order 2 allow others to have a shot in CMC locally. I moved to AI and blew my engine before the first race and did not have the means to build another one.

If you doubt this check mylaps, my track record at Pueblo is 1:45.9xx no one else is within 1.5 seconds of that this year and last year it was at least 3 seconds.

Scott as usual your Keyboard is way bigger than anything actually accomplished on the track.

Are we cool Scott?

Edited September 30, 2008 by Guest

[King Matt1548534716]

Tony,

 

We all know what you are saying is true, nobody NEEDS to do any of this, including racing in the first place. But the issue is perception and more importantly, the "me too" syndrome. For how many years have you specifically preached that "you don't need this, you don't need that, so that's why we don't allow it" yet now you are taking essentially the opposite position by saying it's OK to allow these deviations in class philosophy that have been avoided for so long. But if you don't want to take advantage of them, just don't run them. Well, the problem is that these things will proliferate through the class and costs will go up, along with performance.

[MHISSTC]

 

Yea, we're still cool Cody. I'm not disputing your accomplishments in 2007, just pointing out your absense in 2008. I just think your "I'm too fast for the local CMC guys and I want to give them a chance." excuse is a bit lame. I would have rather seen you out there the whole 2008 season with the CMC locals...faster or not.

 

Your lack of means to compete in AI in 2008 is no different than my lack of means in getting my own car together at all. Same thing...different scale.

 

Tony,

 

If we are going to leave it completely up to "racer choice" as to what they want to run or not, why don't we just adopt the AI rules and let the racers decide if they want to run stock parts or not?

 

I think we have to draw the line somewhere, and you're getting plenty of feedback from folks on where they want that line drawn.

[CMC#11]

Why is it that you think you have to run 17X9.5's??..I don't.

Run your 16x8's and your done no need to even talk about it as its a choice ,just like everything else in the rules..its a choice.

You can run a panhard in a Mustang in the rules..but do you..maybe you do and maybe you don't its a choice.

Everything is a choice, you hate a wing don't buy it,you hate a wheel dont use it,you hate a panhard don't put it on,you hate rear control arms than don't use them...its all a choice here you guys,no one is saying you have to have it or do it just because its in the rules.

PS. the 275 R888 is the exact size of the 275 RA1,I have 2 sets of 4 stacked next to each other and they are identical.

Move on the rules are in place,submit to Al for year end rule requests by email.

Tony Guaglione

CMC National Director

Tony,

Since 275 tires and 9.5" wheels are allowed and if I "choose" to run them on my Fox, how do I make them fit? Will the rules be amended to allow this "legal combination" to fit legally on my car? What will the necessary changes be so I can run this combination?

Thanks,

[powerslide91]

Why is it that you think you have to run 17X9.5's??..I don't.

Run your 16x8's and your done no need to even talk about it as its a choice ,just like everything else in the rules..its a choice.

You can run a panhard in a Mustang in the rules..but do you..maybe you do and maybe you don't its a choice.

Everything is a choice, you hate a wing don't buy it,you hate a wheel dont use it,you hate a panhard don't put it on,you hate rear control arms than don't use them...its all a choice here you guys,no one is saying you have to have it or do it just because its in the rules.

PS. the 275 R888 is the exact size of the 275 RA1,I have 2 sets of 4 stacked next to each other and they are identical.

Move on the rules are in place,submit to Al for year end rule requests by email.

Tony Guaglione

CMC National Director

 

It's this attitude that really has turned me off to the series, no matter how much I would like to see it continue to grow. “I’ve decided so go pound sandâ€

 

To tell a racer that if you don't like a rule that can give an advantage, just don't do it is ridiculous. That’s a fine attitude for a HPDE driver, not for someone that wants to run at the front of a competitive race series.

 

The discussion around the newer cars have wider rims (or tires, or brakes, or wings….) and therefore that is the standard for the series makes as much sense as saying the standard for the series is X and all cars must meet it. Either way, someone has to make a change and spend some money. To date, all the changes have been the burden of the existing CMC cars, which is what has gotten the series to where it is today. Doesn’t seem to be broken in that regard….

 

Like has been said by others, I don’t mind 16 or 17 diameters. But I see no reason to go to a 9.5†rim, or even a 9†rim. Will some of the newer cars therefore not be able to run a factory rim, yes. How is that different from the Fox3 cars as of a year or so ago? Was there any Fox cars that came with 8†rims? So if they wanted to maximize their car per the rules, they needed to buck up and get an aftermarket rim.

 

The same goes for a 275 vs 255 tires. I see no reason why a 275 tire is needed. All that will do is put a strain on the supply with the AI guys.

 

Jokes have been made about the series now just being AI lights, but it is looking to be more and more the truth.

 

Jeff

[Tony G]

Ok, great comments you guys.

As I said, send it all to Al so the Directors can see and count comments, that is how we do it.

The directors nor I make up the rules, we all do, we just don't go backwards.

Thanks,

Tony Guaglione

[roadracerwhite]

There are a few things we should leave to AI:

 

Aftermarket wings

9.5-inch wide wheels

275mm tires

4-piston calipers

Long-tube headers

S195 Mustangs, 4V Cobras & LS1 Camaros

A HP-to-weight ratio that moves CMC even closer to AI in terms of lap times

 

I could not agree more!

Bryan

[supermac]

There are a few things we should leave to AI:

 

Aftermarket wings

9.5-inch wide wheels

275mm tires

4-piston calipers

Long-tube headers

S195 Mustangs, 4V Cobras & LS1 Camaros

A HP-to-weight ratio that moves CMC even closer to AI in terms of lap times

Matt,

Nice list I agree with everything except that you have to let the newer cars in or the series will die. Again just ask A-Sedan how their numbers are.

With letting the other cars in you are going to get some rules creep to keep the older cars competitive.

I realize the guys with older cars are going to have to spend some dough but for the most part their cars are already built and they are just adding on. I am not trying to be calouse it is just a matter of fact.

Why don't we go to a track width measurement for the foxes?

Then they can do what they need to with the fenders.

I can't even imagine how hard it must be for Tony and the other Directors to be fair and even and to keep the series strong at the same time.

I applaud their efforts thanks guys!

[mitchntx1548534714]

you have to let the newer cars in or the series will die.

 

I will agree with that statement to a point.

 

If my family has a history of heart disease at age 55, I don't go out and get a transplant at 45.

[Alien]

Ok, great comments you guys.

As I said, send it all to Al so the Directors can see and count comments, that is how we do it.

The directors nor I make up the rules, we all do, we just don't go backwards.

Thanks,

Tony Guaglione

So are we supposed to be sending our comments regarding the 2009 CMC and CMC-2 rules or the proposed 2010 CMC rules? Am I correct in that no actual 'changes' are so far planned for the 2009 rules, tho there are a few clarifications such as fuel and wing size?

Do I need to send in my thoughts of the 275 and 9" wide wheel this year for CMC-2 (which I have no intention of running in) since it seems that the duece rules will be the deciding factor in 2010? Seems kinda wierd me having a say in a class I don't run.

[supermac]

you have to let the newer cars in or the series will die.

 

I will agree with that statement to a point.

 

If my family has a history of heart disease at age 55, I don't go out and get a transplant at 45.

Well do you wait until you are 56

[bsim]

You guys are making my eyes bleed. They say "The squeaky wheel gets the grease", but it's also true that "The squeaky wheel is the first one replaced and tossed in the trash".

 

The rules are in place as of now. Period. Done.

 

Now, the directors have opened up for requests for changes. As Al stated, BACK UP YOUR REQUESTS WITH SOMETHING. Not "big wings are ugly" OR "small number look ugly" OR "255s work on cars 600#s lighter than us".

 

Today, you can run 275s. Period. WHY THAT'S THERE DOES NOT MATTER. IF YOU HAVE DATA THAT PROVES 255'S ARE MORE APPROPRIATE, PRESENT IT!

 

"ME TOO" and "PERCEIVED ADVANTAGE" only hurt the people that don't know any better, or are too ignorant to listen to the way their car behaves based on their driving style. WE CANNOT BUILD A RULESET based on that ignorance. We can't legislate stupid.

 

If you REALLY want a rule changed, PROVIDE SOME DATA!

[King Matt1548534716]

Today, you can run 275s. Period.

Really? Have you read the 2008 CMC rules lately? The data I present is that we have been racing on 255 tires since long before I can even remember. I guess they work since I can kick your ass on them.

 

Same goes for 4-piston calipers, 9.5 inch wheels, long-tube headers, and increased HP levels. None of those things are in the 2008 CMC rules.

[bsim]

Al, here's my rule change proposal:

 

WHAT:

Delete all allowed modifications to any car, other than safety and interior removal. No updating / back dating. Nothing other than production stock. If the part is no longer produced it must be sourced from an existing car (junkyard).

 

WHY:

• Simpler rule book, with no grey areas (if it didn't leave the factory in the year your car was built with certain parts, you can't have it it)
  Good cars remain good, crappy cars still suck.

[bsim]

My secret for 2009 will be to run 275's up front and 255's in the rear. Should help with balancing the pushing pig syndrome.

 

Oops, not a secret anymore.

[CMC#11]

If you REALLY want a rule changed, PROVIDE SOME DATA!

How about some "DATA" on why 275's were allowed over 255's in the first place. I thought "test mules" have been figuring this out in CA for the last few months. How about we see the data on these tests so we are better educated.

I know one of the reasons was curb rash b/c of the lower profile.

255/40/17 - 25.04" diameter, section width 10.04", recommended wheel 8.5-10.0

275/40/17 - 25.66" diameter, section width 10.83", recommended wheel 9.0-11.0

How does .62" of total diameter mean the difference of curb rash vs. no curb rash?

I know the curbing we have in TX and OK and I don't see how this is at all possible under normal racing conditions. Sure damage could occur from a slide, spin, or off but it could still happen with any other tire.

 

I think everyone could understand the rules better if we knew how they came about or how specific rules were changed.

[bsim]

...we have been racing on 255 tires since long before I can even remember. I guess they work since I can kick your ass on them.

OK, that's funny.

 

BTW, if I recall correctly, everytime we've been in a race in the same class, I've finished ahead of you. I'm gonna get a new etching for my rear-views:

"Objects in this mirror may be Matt King" heehee

[bsim]

Sorry MM (and others) - but would the "WHY" from an in place rule stop the whining?

 

Doubt it.

 

That's the point. If you can't bring a gun to a gunfight, you can't complain that it's a gunfight in the first place. Maybe you shouldn't enter a gunfight without one, huh?

 

Maybe the rules only have knives, or nothing at all. But you would be better served by being well armed before you even ask.

[CMC#11]

Sorry MM (and others) - but would the "WHY" from an in place rule stop the whining?

 

Doubt it.

 

That's the point. If you can't bring a gun to a gunfight, you can't complain that it's a gunfight in the first place. Maybe you shouldn't enter a gunfight without one, huh?

 

Maybe the rules only have knives, or nothing at all. But you would be better served by being well armed before you even ask.

 

Your right, lets allow all carbon fiber body work, 502 crate motors, and heck how about maching guns on the roofs of cars. No need to let people know why b/c it won't change anything.

 

Of course it will help to know WHY a rule is in place!!!! It's called an understanding, the more of it you can get the better.

[HMark]

Al- Haven't you learned yet to lock these threads after your first post?

 

 

-Don

[Alien]

If you REALLY want a rule changed, PROVIDE SOME DATA!

 

I couldn't agree more! To those that want the change the 2010 CMC rules up to 17s, 9.5" width, and 275s, please provide Brad some data.

 

I think people are getting confused... Brad says these rules are already in place... so I assume you're talking about CMC2 rules, yes? Then I agree, leave them as they are for one more year.

 

Those 'squeaky wheels' are talking about the CMC1 rules. So in 2010, the CMC1 rules are the ones looking at being changed. They're not the ones that are "The rules are in place as of now. Period. Done. "

[Glenn]

wow.....

i vote no to:

wings.

9.5" wide wheels (9's are fine).

4 piston calipers as no CMC CMC-2 legal car came stock w/ them.

and 275 17 tires. i have a very hard time beleaving they have the same grip as a 255 16. for gods sake Toyolists a .80" differnce in section width.

 

 

 

just to add to the pot here...... now that we are considering shorty headers, will they be allowed to be coated? how about allowing solid motor mounts now that we are allowing aftermarket 4 piston calipers. solids would last more than the 2 years i get from poly's. how about removing that useless layer of sheetmetal on the bottom side of my hood? i need all the help i can get in order to get my 4th gen down to min weight. write into the rules that no fuel displacemnt blocks are allowed in stock fuel tanks and fuel cells.

 

as for the number size and Tony's responce....... i'm glad you like big numbers. but lets not use personal feelings as a reason to make or not make a rule change that more alinges us w/ the NASA CCR's since lots of folks run their CMC car in class's other thn CMC, like TT, PT, HPDE, and AI if they want. seems like we would want all of NASA to look the same w/ regards to car numbers and sizes.

 

alot of "lack of trust" from the rank and file is coming from the knee jerk reactions that come from the "managment". 255's vs 275's debate. balance of the car should have no merit on the size we pick.

17x9's or 9.5's. i say use OEM wheels and sizes. 17x9's.

i also think we are forcing this class merger by 2010 a little to much. someone jumped the gun on this and it really needs to be pushed back at least another year.

[mitchntx1548534714]

I think everyone could understand the rules better if we knew how they came about or how specific rules were changed.

 

Tell me how that turns out for you, Michael ...

 

I think I'm gonna read up on Marie Antoinette ... now how did that story end?

[FBody383]

...its all a choice here you guys,no one is saying you have to have it or do it just because its in the rules.

 

Unless it becomes a performance issue.

 

The rules are in place as of now. Period. Done.

The directors nor I make up the rules, we all do, we just don't go backwards.

If the rules are done, there is a lot of energy being expended for no good reason. I don't think it's a question of going backwards, rather how to move forward in a rational manner.

 

Look, I'm one of the rookies coming in next year (since I couldn't get the car done this year) and though this is frustrating, I'm still coming. I will run on the RA1s I already own and may finish at the back a lot but I'll have a good time.

 

I understand the frustration - I'm not as Type A as some of you, but I can stir the pot with the best. Let's find some reasonable middle ground and go racing.