kbrew8991 Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 better? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNAKBITN Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 No not better cause you just made it 31 pages. Now your in timeout!!! Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillB Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 I think all points for TT/PT should be rearranged to meet a points per dollar ratio all based on the S2000 costs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlfpkrcn1 Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 I find it slightly ridiculous that for us to run a cheap hardtop it takes X points and a whole argument about fixed roof cars changing their roofline!No one who runs this top realy gives a shoo-shiddily-diddily about that they just got it because its $900 on ebay and OEM is $3000 new! IF you don't care about TT... Run with your top in HPDE4 and stop trying to change the TT/PT rules. The bottom line is that using the top as a Zero points does not serve any purpose other than you don't want to spend money on a legal top. If the legal top was $900 used then you wouldn't have a problem. RACING IS EXPENSIVE. STOP USING COST AS AN ARGUMENT. Ofcourse if the stock top was $900 used and the knock off Mugen was $300 you would still complain about costs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dans2k Posted March 22, 2011 Author Share Posted March 22, 2011 Well the main argument for banning it has been "if we allowed a hardtop thats practically the same as OEM we'd have to let fixed roof cars cut their roof off and they would be fast and hard to draft in PT" yea rite I am sure everyone will be rushing to their car with the sawzall and a can of bondo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillB Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Well the main argument for banning it has been "if we allowed a hardtop thats practically the same as OEM we'd have to let fixed roof cars cut their roof off and they would be fast and hard to draft in PT" yea rite I am sure everyone will be rushing to their car with the sawzall and a can of bondo! A much more reasonable summary of the argument would be: "If we allow a hardtop which is not exactly like the shape of the OEM top, it should take aero points." And to your other point, people cut their roofs off to put in cages all the time. Making it shorter or a more sloped shape wouldn't be that big of a deal really. edit - here is an examples of me and some friends cutting the roof off a Grassroots challenge car we did for fun. Do you think I would have less of a desire to do it for something I'm serious about? http://www.breesmotorsports.com/ANightWithASawzall.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlfpkrcn1 Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Well the main argument for banning it has been "if we allowed a hardtop thats practically the same as OEM we'd have to let fixed roof cars cut their roof off and they would be fast and hard to draft in PT" yea rite I am sure everyone will be rushing to their car with the sawzall and a can of bondo! This proves you have not listened to anything anybody has said. This is 31 pages of self serving "woo with me a stock top is expensive" self interest. TT is not something you take seriously. You only want what is convenient for you. The top in question is not "practically the same as stock" it has a completely different roofline. If allowed it would greatly benefit someone choosing to use a rear wing. Did you not look at the aero pictures I posted? I even posted a pic of a S2000 with the top ( or original Mugen) in question. Did you not see the air flow to the wing? Is that not proof enough? To boot you have not offered any researched data on coefficient of drag, available air to the rear wing, increase downforce etc. You have not taken the technical step to prove it is "practically the same". It is strictly an opinion based on cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dans2k Posted March 22, 2011 Author Share Posted March 22, 2011 Well the main argument for banning it has been "if we allowed a hardtop thats practically the same as OEM we'd have to let fixed roof cars cut their roof off and they would be fast and hard to draft in PT" yea rite I am sure everyone will be rushing to their car with the sawzall and a can of bondo! This proves you have not listened to anything anybody has said. This is 31 pages of self serving "woo with me a stock top is expensive" self interest. TT is not something you take seriously. You only want what is convenient for you. The top in question is not "practically the same as stock" it has a completely different roofline. If allowed it would greatly benefit someone choosing to use a rear wing. Did you not look at the aero pictures I posted? I even posted a pic of a S2000 with the top ( or original Mugen) in question. Did you not see the air flow to the wing? Is that not proof enough? To boot you have not offered any researched data on coefficient of drag, available air to the rear wing, increase downforce etc. You have not taken the technical step to prove it is "practically the same". It is strictly an opinion based on cost. so what you are saying is if I can prove the aero is no better than OEM it would be allowed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlfpkrcn1 Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 You would have better chance. But you would also need to prove it offers no added benefit if a rear wing is used. If you were serious this would have been done 20+ pages ago. Plus Greg would still need to figure out how to apply it to coupes and sedans. I think that can is to big to open. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 yea rite I am sure everyone will be rushing to their car with the sawzall and a can of bondo! Pg 18: If you think we wouldn't take a sawzall to our roofs for a .1s you're not racing hard enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dans2k Posted March 22, 2011 Author Share Posted March 22, 2011 yea rite I am sure everyone will be rushing to their car with the sawzall and a can of bondo! Pg 18: If you think we wouldn't take a sawzall to our roofs for a .1s you're not racing hard enough. so why are the guys with FRC's not converting them to coupes? in fact whats in the rules to stop you changing a C5 convertible to a coupe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dans2k Posted March 22, 2011 Author Share Posted March 22, 2011 another thing I'd like to know is why I think you can take most any C5 (FRC) and take the special suspension package whatever off it and have it classed as a regular C5 I don't disagree with this makes perfect sense but why can't you take the aero kit and suspension off a S2000 CR and have it pickup the base classing of an AP2 S2000?! Without the shocks/sways and aero kit its basically an AP2 with a AP1 steering rack softtop and some other 0 point parts factory removed.. I don't disagree with the CR base class but if you change that take that stuff off why take points for it? you are taking extra points over an AP2 for a wing and suspension then if you change them out you take the points again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 According to Greg there's some additional chassis bracing and some suspension differences between the two cars (AP2 and AP2 CR). And from what I can tell when I was researching another issue that's true. There ISN'T anything that says you can't claim the regular AP2 base class when you have a CR or vice versa btw! Of course you should pick the one that works out best for you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlfpkrcn1 Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dans2k Posted March 22, 2011 Author Share Posted March 22, 2011 According to Greg there's some additional chassis bracing and some suspension differences between the two cars (AP2 and AP2 CR). And from what I can tell when I was researching another issue that's true. There ISN'T anything that says you can't claim the regular AP2 base class when you have a CR or vice versa btw! Of course you should pick the one that works out best for you As far as I know the bracing is one bar across the top of the steering rack mounting points and the rear strut tower brace has 2 extra attachment points (where the softtop would gets in the way on regular S2000) So if those were removed along with struts/springs and aero (and you either took +2 for sways or changed to AP2 sways) you could put a CR into AP2 baseclass at 2850lbs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 You don't have to turn a wrench at all dude But you would have to take any points for the CR-specific parts. Obviously if the car was a bone-stock CR you're saving quite a few points by running the CR base class instead of the normal one... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shawn M. Posted March 22, 2011 Members Share Posted March 22, 2011 (edited) Edited June 2, 2011 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dans2k Posted March 22, 2011 Author Share Posted March 22, 2011 You don't have to turn a wrench at all dude But you would have to take any points for the CR-specific parts. Obviously if the car was a bone-stock CR you're saving quite a few points by running the CR base class instead of the normal one... oh ok thats great I guess I was a bit confused about the rules! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dans2k Posted March 22, 2011 Author Share Posted March 22, 2011 I guess I thought the rules were picking on S2000's but I was just confused The hardtop thing is realy annoying though that wind tunnel picture doesn't realy mean a crap theres plenty of pictures of the ASM and other tuner S2000's that use OEM tops with a wing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlfpkrcn1 Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Post them Also that picture proves what I have been saying about airflow to the rear wing. It proves that the shape of the roofline affects the air available to the rear wing. I could not find a picture with a stock S2000 top Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dans2k Posted March 22, 2011 Author Share Posted March 22, 2011 (edited) I maybe wrong about the famous ASM car but I'm sure i've seen some of them with OEM anyways here are some Edited March 23, 2011 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dans2k Posted March 22, 2011 Author Share Posted March 22, 2011 for referance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlfpkrcn1 Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 I maybe wrong about the famous ASM car but I'm sure i've seen some of them with OEManyways here are some, the last picture I have never seen b4 and is very interesting, i might have my wing in the wrong place Look at how the air does not follow the line of the top, yet the ASM car follows it exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dans2k Posted March 22, 2011 Author Share Posted March 22, 2011 I maybe wrong about the famous ASM car but I'm sure i've seen some of them with OEManyways here are some, the last picture I have never seen b4 and is very interesting, i might have my wing in the wrong place Look at how the air does not follow the line of the top, yet the ASM car follows it exactly. forget that pic I think its a fake someone stuck their car over the ASM one it looks like a chop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlfpkrcn1 Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 better? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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